I have recently purchased the M60's and love the crisp,clean
and clear sound. But I feel that they are lacking punch. My
previous speakers, Kenwood JL-630W, seem to have much more
depth to them. They could really fill the room with sound
and give a kick to my rock music.
I am running an Onkyo TX-DS595 receiver, a JVC XV-S65
DVD/CD player and a Dish Network 501 receiver box. The JVC
is interconnected with a digital coax to the Onkyo and the
satelite is using an optical interconnect. The speakers are
wired with 12g. wire.
When playing music from the cd player, radio or satelite
(cd quality music stations), while in the direct or stereo mode, I get the previously mentioned results. Changing to
one of the surround sound fields, without the rear speakers on, seems to improve a little. My room is 'L' shaped, 16X20
with a 8X9 piece at the bottom right and 8ft. ceilings. The
equipment is at the top of the 'L' and the listening position is at the bottom. I also get some improvement by
increasing the bass and decreasing the treble a little.
The M60's are hitting all of the notes fine, just lacking
some depth. Can anyone offer any suggestions?
Sorry about the length of this post, but I have sent two
e-mails to the customer service address with out any replies.
Thank You
Saki

This is one of the very few problems with Axiom speakers. It's not that the bass is not low enough (the M60 goes plenty low) it's that it has no impact and punch...some call it SLAM. This is one of the reasons Paradigm speakers have been good sellers...they have great mid and upperbass punch. Doug S. the reviewer over at soundstage.com said that if the M3Ti's had bass impact they would be the bargain of the century...and he is right. Ian MUST give his speakers more punch.

I can hear the bass I just can't FEEL it.

I am very familiar with this design philosophy and completely disagree with it. The bass "punch" is achieved by adding coloration around 100Hz. On a fairly quick listen this seems to be pleasing but it is in fact unrealistic and becomes irritating over time. Normally designers following this line will also increase the high frequency to balance out the unrealistic bass boost. This destroys the mid range and imaging of the speaker. Though this design technique will appear to be a benefit at first, which can be very helpful in relatively short in store demonstrations, it detracts from the overall performance that could have been achieved by the speaker. The proper way to add this punch, if your particular environment requires it, is to add a sub-woofer and run it with the crossover frequency up fairly high.

Saki,

As a new owner of M60s, I can relate to your problem with the different sound - compared to what you were used to. Call it lack of "punch" or whatever, but the truth is, when you change to speakers that have a significantly different sound, - believe it or not - you really have to adjust to them!

DO NOT BE AFRAID to adjust the tone controls on your receiver!!!! They were put there by the engineers/designers to help compensate for room acoustics, differences in speakers and personal tastes. We do not all hear the same, nor do we listen for the same things in our music. If turning up the bass gives you the punch you are desiring - then (my advice/opinion) turn it up!

The "audophile police" are not going to come around and arrest you for using them.

Ian's suggestion about using a sub just may be the thing you need. I use my subwoofer with both HT and stereo music. I have gotten used to it and I like it - so I use it!

Good luck!

Randyman

Saki,

As a new owner of M60s, I can relate to your problem with the different sound - compared to what you were used to. Call it lack of "punch" or whatever, but the truth is, when you change to speakers that have a significantly different sound, - believe it or not - you really have to adjust to them!

DO NOT BE AFRAID to adjust the tone controls on your receiver!!!! They were put there by the engineers/designers to help compensate for room acoustics, differences in speakers and personal tastes. We do not all hear the same, nor do we listen for the same things in our music. If turning up the bass gives you the punch you are desiring - then (my advice/opinion) turn it up!

The "audiophile police" are not going to come around and arrest you for using them.

Ian's suggestion about using a sub just may be the thing you need. I use my subwoofer with both HT and stereo music. I have gotten used to it and I like it - so I use it!

Good luck!

Randyman

I was not refering to only the base sound but the entire range. I think. I am new to this,next step, up the quality ladder. I will try using the powered sub to see what difference that it will make. Alan has answered my message to customer service and zeroed in on the bass factor as well. I agree with everyone that the m60's do hit low and
relatively hard when they have to. I'll report back.

You know, it's odd.

Axiom, Paradigm, JBL, and numerous other high quality manufacturers all say that much of their design criteria derive from Dr. Floyd Toole's research at the NRC.

Yet they all have their own sound.

If all of these very well respected designers and manufacturers disagree on what the "right" sound is, how can anyone expect that we ordinary folk will agree.

God gave us all different tastes and interests.

Let's just enjoy what we, as individuals like, and not worry about what is the "right" sound.

You know, I even used to like Bose untill I became an "educated consumer". (No flames please, we all had to start somewhere.)

Different people listen for, and like, different aspects of the overall sound experience.

Just find what you like in your price range, take it home, and enjoy it.

If you analyze it to death, you'll never really enjoy the experience.

Lee,

You're right on with your post. There's an interesting discussion of this very issue in hometheaterforum: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68150

Bottom line... enjoy the movies and music and don't worry that "the sky is falling" when you read something from someone who bashes your gear for some reason in a forum someplace.

lando

PS Has BBIH changed his name? Haven't seen him on the boards recently.

Lando;
Are you a 'Technician' at Axiom? I am not sure what 'technical' advice you are tring to offer.
I posted a query to the 'technical' forum because I wanted some 'technical' advice from the experts at Axiom! As I previously stated... I am fairly new to the 'next step up' in quality! I was attempting to to find out if I was
doing something wrong with the way that I had setup and ran these speakers. I in no way was bashing anyone's product!!
Ian and Alan both have attempted to offer good 'technical'
advice to help me out! Are you in the correct forum for the
answer that you offered up? I see that there is a forum for
Advice from Axiom owners.

Saki,

I'm not a technician in the audio field, and don't work for Axiom.... I apologize for getting off-topic in your thread.

lando

Whoa there Saki!

Lando was just trying to help by giving his advice.

Hi Lee, Randyman, Saki:

Yes, we may develop different tastes in tonal balance, but God gave us all the same hearing equipment--our ears and brains. Barring major job-induced hearing losses, we do in fact hear the same way. That, along with much other research, was revealed by Dr. Toole's long-term research into the correlation of objective speaker measurements with controlled double-blind subjective listening tests:all people with normal hearing will, when the price and brand of the speakers is concealed, agree on the best-sounding and worst-sounding speakers. And anyone can learn to discriminate like this with a few hours of training.

No two speakers ever sound exactly alike. But in the many blind-screen tests I participated in, along with Floyd Toole, there were lots of occasions when the tests included brands that you mentioned (and Axiom as well) and the speakers were so alike that I (and my colleagues) would often write down "similarly good". On certain cuts of music, you might prefer one over the other, but when the scores were averaged, those speakers were so closely rated that you could not say one of them was better than the other.

I concur totally with Ian's judgment on bass "punch". Paradigm has for years added a 2 to 3-dB boost in the 120 Hz region to its compact speakers (and some of the top models as well). While it initially will impress naive consumers in a store (dealers love it), it isn't natural. Over time it horribly colors all male vocals and FM announcers with a fat, plump, coloration. Have you listened to live kick drum (not miked by some stoned-out soundman EQing the bass to absurd levels) in a club? It's solid but it doesn't have that phony "punch" you hear from lots of speakers.

Good advice from Randyman. The aforementioned fat coloration in some speakers can be nicely reduced or attenuated by turning down the bass control by about 3 dB. On many receivers or preamps, this might be about the "10:00 a.m" position of the bass control.

There's every reason to worry about musical accuracy. That's what advances great speaker design. I know that what all of us seek in our living rooms is a "plausible illusion" of the real thing. But when the latter has fat, fruity coloration on male vocals and speaking voices--that ain't real! No guy sounds like that talking or singing.

You're certainly correct in one respect, Lee. When you stop trying to criticize the speakers and hear flaws, and simply get off on the music, it's likely the speakers are really good. That's what we mean by "transparent" sound. It's a window to the sound of real-sounding instruments and vocals.

Regards,

No, I am still the same name.
I have not had any time to stay current on the board. I have also been playing with some newer equipment that has been taking my spare time.

Is there anything specific you are looking for from me? This is not me posting in "alias mode" if that is what you are wondering!

My favorite way of satisying the craving for bass slam is driving on the highway blasting "Woke Up This Morning" from the Sopranos soundtrack 5-6 times in a row...with the bass cranked way up, naturally.

I might add this solution is very spouse-friendly if he or she listens to 99% classical and jazz.

Alan;
As you and Ian have suggested, I checked all of the settings on my receiver and used the subwoofer.
I think that what Randyman stated is true. After listening to low quality speakers for so long, I just need to get used to the new sound. I am enjoying different types of music now just to be able to hear the crisp and clean
sound from these M60's.
I would like to thank everyone for their help. These 'open' forums are a testimony to your belief and commitment in your products. I find it quite refreshing, if
not a little bizzar, to be able to communicate directly with
'the owner'.

KUDOS

Maybe you should make sure the speaker wires are not hooked up out of phase. If the terminals on your amplifier are color coded red and black and the binding posts on the speakers are also color coded then you want to make sure red goes to red and black to black. With some speaker wire its easy to twist one of the wires and get the connection on one speaker reversed. Then the bass from the two speakers will be out of phase and tend to cancel.