Hello Everyone,
I purchased my speakers friday (2 m60s, 2 qs8s and the EP500. I am so excited. Anyway, I am looking for a professional installer. I asked some of the local stores in town and one name consistantly came up.
I had him over today to give me a bid. The price was far below what I was expecting.
For speaker placement, he made some recommendations that go against what I have been reading, so I overrode him.
Also, he stated that it would be OK to use 16 gauge wire. If I planned on playing it rather loud (which I will!!! Isn't that the point?) I should go with 14 gauge as I need less than 100 feet.
What are your recommendations for wire gauge and speaker placement in a 15 x 15 x 9 room.
I live in lancaster CA. Does anyone here know of any other professional installers???
Thanks
Mike, are you planning on a major project like running wires through some walls or do you need basic assistance like wiring your receiver with proper connectors, setting up levels etc? I'm sure if you ask nicely
you can probably get someone from this board to help you setup your system, especially since an ep500 is on your equipment list.
I would recommend going to your local hardware store and buy some generic 12 gauge wiring. It'll work fine in most applications and cost less than the name brand.
Exactly what did you ask him to bid on?
If possible, I would get stranded #12 and forget the rest, unless you have a problem "running" the wire. I'd use the #12 for everything.
Mike, I'd second the points made by Mike Richey; unless you're talking about extensive behind-wall work which you're not experienced in, a professional installer might not be necessary. While he may be quite competent with the physical details of an installation, it's possible that he's a bit short in his knowledge of audio technology; for example, how loud you'll play it has little or nothing to do with the gauge of the wire. An excellent discussion of speaker wire, with suggested gauges, by a well-respected veteran audio professional is found
here and might be of interest to you.
One problem i have with people reccomending cheap hardware store wire is that not all wire is the same. I have had problems in the past with certain brands of wire oxidizing inside the jacket, considerably. And then i have had other wire that didnt. All wire is not created equal. You dont have to spend a fortune to get a respected cable. Radio shacks MEGA cable was one of the wires i had that did NOT oxidize. But that stuff isint very cheap either so any real amount of the stuff would be quite pricey. I personally see no point in using anything less than 12 gauge, no matter how short the run may be unless cost is really an issue. And instead of just blowing the guy off about his speaker placement reccomendations, how hard would it be to just move the speakers and listen to it. He might actually be right. Then again. Maybe not.
Haoleb: agreed. I did not mean "cheap" wire that will turn green with age. I also did not want to mention something like "Monster" wire because I think that there are cheaper alternatives.
Do you remember how much the Radio Shack wire was on a per foot basis?
professional installer for what? Can you be more specific. Like the others, unless your needing someone to do a total refinish of a basement, for example, this stuff is not that hard.
I used 12 guage wire for my entire setup, but it is not required if your runs are relatively short.
I do not remember how much the 12 gauge was per foot. I think it was either around the same price as axioms cable, if not more though.
And just so you know, one of the cables that did turn black was monster cable. I do not know what plain 12 gauge is best for quality out there but im sure you can find that out with some internet searching.
I agree with the question. What are you doing that requires install? I used Axiom's 12 guage ordered with system. It was easier.
What difference does it make if the exterior of the wire oxidizes? Don't you still have the core of each strand to conduct the signal?
If the exterior of the wire oxidizes, you risk having a high resistance connection at the connection/ connector. That would not be good!!!!
If the wire only oxidizes where is exposed to air, then how would it oxidize at the contact point?
The wire i am talking about oxidized inside the jacket running the entire length of the cable. Weither it affects the sound or not is debatable but nobody should spend any money on some crappy wire thats going to oxidize. It just shouldnt be happening.
Hi Mike. You can order really nice 12 guage wire from Axiom with your speakers. It is great wire and a good price. And the shipping will be free with your package.
Shane D
Quite honestly....if you are good with a aluminum or fiber fishing line then you dont need a professional. However, get ready for a fun time fishing wire in and out of walls...depending on your build it could be loads of fun or a real quick install. I did my install myself in a small room...but the construction was so lousy (bought the house..not my choice) that it took me a good few hours to pull speaker wire in a small room. 20x10 or so...
As for the cable itself... I have read and argued this with myself over and over again. As it turns out...the wire that gave me the best bang for my buck was a large 100' spool of RCA 12gauge that I bought at Home Depot... I have tried Monster XP and others...they are all good. But price wise this RCA did the job and upon measuring signals I noticed that it was actually better then the monster xp cabling (same receiver used for testing). I use a old school RAT SHACK analog level meter...works great.
Hope that helps some.
Did you return the Monster wire? I think that I would have given it a thought or two.
By the way, do any of you "tin" the end of your wires with solder before using them in banana plugs or putting them to the jacks on the back of your gear?
Bernard, if the exterior of the wire oxidizes(it's unclear whether the discoloration Brandon described was oxidation from the air or a chemical reaction with the jacket material, since cutting open even decades old wire usually reveals bright copper inside)it doesn't significantly affect the power carried as long as the connection points are clean. A tight connection tends to be essentially airtight at the actual connection point and any oxidation can be cleaned off with a mild abrasive such as a pencil eraser, or the end can simply be trimmed off and re-stripped.
John: it isn't clear whether the reaction, he was discribing, was from air or a chemical reaction.
I have recently seen some discolored copper wire that was attached to one of those 5 way binding posts. The wire was "snugged down" fairly tight. It was all discolored. The binding post did not leave a bright copper mark.
Did it make a high resistance connection? I don't know. I didn't measure it. But, the speaker sounded just fine.
I've seen some strange things happen with wires and connections over the years. Dissimilar metals can present quite a problem. But, I digress.
Could be that humidity down there in Alabama.
I did not return the monster cable, by the time it had oxidized i had already upgraded to something better. Not to mention i cut the ends off of it. I would imagine the oxidation was caused by a reaction to the dielectric material they used
bug: possibly!!! But, other wire was just fine. Humidity could have contributed.
It sure was hot and muggy yesterday with showers all afternoon long. Forecast is more of the same for today.
Copper oxidation can occur but only with the exposed sections of copper. It actually forms a protective coating around the copper core thus preventing further 'attack' by the world of oxygen, sulphur, moisture.
Oxidized copper is often used on historical building roofs for the very reason that it won't decay. It turns a lovely shade of green called a patina.
Although the ends that attach to the binders should be clean, the wire itself does not degrade any further within the core. The film of oxidation is really quite thin, more than ppl realize. Most speaker wire is sold as 99.99% oxygen free, but none of it stays that way for long unless it is sealed in an airtight skin which has been pre-washed in some extraordinarily clean solvents and assembled with the wire in a non-oxygen environment.
Perhaps that is what paying $1000 a foot gets a person? Perhaps not.
Welcome to the wonderful world of chemistry.
I am having it done because I am horrible with any type of tool in my hand. I do not want to injure a family member or myself! LOL.
Everytime I put something together or attempt to fix something, I end up making it worse. And, my father was a mechanic. Go figure.
I want to make sure that the walls do not get messed up. I do not want to run cables up the walls for my qs8s. They are going to put the wire through the walls.
You should see the wine rack I put together. The bottom row was put in backwards!
Mike
chess: good description of copper oxidation.
I doubt that the wire charlatans do anything special to their speaker wire, but you never know (black magic???).
LOL!!
Rat,
Just pulled this off Outlaw boards.
"As an aside, the planned Model 790 will reportedly be able to achieve 300Wx7 with all channels driven. It, of course, has two separate power cords, and to achieve 2100W of output it would presumably require two dedicated 15A outlets to draw from."
Are you running dedicated lines to your HT? I may have to. I'm testing now but it seems all my wall outlets on one floor of the house are on one 15 amp circuit. Current HT (receiver, plasma, etc) and 3 computers and printers on circuit already.
bug: you pose an interesting question.
If you wanted to test 7 channels, all at the same time, at a single tone to 300 watts each, you certainly would need more than a 15 amp circuit. No doubt about it!!!!
But, is this a realistic test for the HT environment?
My answer is NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you look at the decibel sound pressure level example link that Ajax posted, for 100 dB, for 91 dB/ watt speakers, you need less than 10 watts per speaker. For sound pressure of 110 dB, you only need less than 100 watts.
It all depends on how loud you are going to listen. Even though I may get the 300 watt amps, I'm certainly not going to listen at 110 dB. Remember that I posted that 80 dB was very loud for me and I had to turn NASCAR down when it peaked at 87-88 dB? I really don't think that I would listen at 100 dB.
Very high instantaneous power peaks that are found in some music are handled by the capacitors in your power supply. That why some manufacterurs like to claim more capacitance in their power supplies than their competitors.
You probably do need to see how much equipment is tied to your HT circuit. You could turn off the circuit breaker and see what turns off with it. That might be the easiest way.
I suspect that the "true" test is to use all of your equipment (TV and loud HT) and see if the breaker trips. If it does, then, of course, you have a problem.
It you are going to wire another dedicated circuit, I'd go for a 20 amp circuit. It probably won't cost a lot more, and it will give you some additional capability.
Hope that this explanation helps.
LOL Mike,
I put a shower in once, with the shower wall panels. Problem was I put the panels in upside down, so know the bottles of shampoo don't have a place to sit, as the bottom of the shelves had a curve to them, ha ha
Rat,
Thanks for the reply.
I wondered about the high current requirement that forum members talk about. Outlaw's literature says separate circuits are best. Their high current amps should not be on circuits with TV's and computers.
Right now I'm listening to radio. Great stereo sound and plenty of bass from the 80's. Spl is around 85-90 in HT room, but 70-75 in the computer room where I am.
bug: I really do not believe that many forum members/ users fully understand the concepts of duty cycle, power supplies, listening levels, and how they interact with one another. I do believe that the manufacturers take big advantage of this lack of knowledge. Of course, the specifics can be quite complex and technical.
Yes, I believe that it would be "best" to have separate circuits for your amplifiers. No doubt about "best."
But, then, again, what is OK or what will work??
I think that is the question that you are asking!!!
If I get one of those 790 amplifiers, I'm going to try plugging it into the same 20 amp circuit that I have the rest of the gear powered from. If it works, it works! If it doesn't, I have plan "B." The breaker box is in the back of my HT room and I have an attic opening to the crawlspace in the ceiling. Shouldn't be too difficult to add another 20 amp circuit.
Bernard, maybe not "black magic", but at least "Black Label" for those who choose to take up
"Mr. Fields and the chief technician" on their wondrous $30,000 wires and cables.
Yea but, those NBS cables *do* come with a lifetime warranty John.
That's unreal!
The pricing is interesting:
$10K/4ft pair
$30K/12ft pair
I guess that means that the wires are where the magic is and the connectors are thrown in for free. I think most people who have experience with wiring would say that the connector is key, but then again I'm not charging over $1K per foot of wire.
But hey, go to the mall and the local jeweller charges thousands for pretty but otherwise useless tiny polished stones, so what better way of saying "I'm rich" for the audiophile than cables?
Anyways, took a look at the nbscables.com website, and they have some technical details on their cables. One actually meaningful (but confusing) tidbit is that they use gold-plated beryllium copper (BeCu) for their connectors. Now, BeCu is commonly used for microelectronic probing applications because it's a strong alloy but it is self-cleaning, i.e. each time it makes contact with a pad it sheds off a layer (or so the literature says). So why plate it? You gold plate metals that oxidize, not BeCu. Weird.
They also claim a "Passive Frequency Inductance Network (PFIN)". If that's what they call their braided wire, I'm at a loss why that would be either a good or a bad thing for audio.
Then, they say they have a "specially plated chromium barrel to reject RFI and EMI". (Those are RF and electromagnetic interference.) A metal connector becomes frequency selective? Huh?
Another gem: "However, all frequencies demonstrate harmonic structures." A frequency is a frequency, whereas a signal may contain multiple frequencies, and a nonlinear element may generate mixing terms (harmonics). Bizarre statement at best, misleading technobabble at worst.
another classic example of "if you can't dazzle them with knowledge, baffle 'em with bullsh!t". the sad thing is i'm sure that someone has bought that crap thinking that they're getting quality product.
This whole area of cables/ wires is so RIDICULOUS that I personally believe that the FTC MUST step in and establish a standard.
I wonder if anyone who reads this board has a set of those cables? NO!! If they bought those cables, they must have also bought $100,000 speakers. LOL!
A fool is born every day!
Absolutely, Bernard! Anyone who spent maybe $50,000 on the wire and cables handmade by "Mr.Fields and the chief technician" would certainly want the
$100,000 speakers which are his "original design"(I can certainly believe that). Plus, they'll
fly you one-way to their Minneapolis studio to audition the speakers and put you up in a 4 star hotel; and if you commit to purchase they'll even fly you back home! Of course, if you don't.....
A place in Owensboro KY, Tyler Accoustics, makes some beautiful speakers. At 50,000, a hand made custom finish 6 1/2 foot tower. It's some of the best woodwork I ever seen. The guy says they average 3 clients a month.
What a way to force a purchase. You don't buy, and you're stuck in Minneapolis forever! (or until you come up with bus fare home.) Bua ha ha ha hah!
Do sales go up in winter?
In reply to:
What a way to force a purchase. You don't buy, and you're stuck in Minneapolis forever! (or until you come up with bus fare home.) Bua ha ha ha hah!
Do sales go up in winter?
At least you'll have $100k for an airfare home!
I bet the FTC has some formula for prioritization of which cases to pursue. They probably count the number of complaints, whether there's a public safety issue, or other harm that customers might experience. This is just rich people wasting their money. Why do people buy certain brands of very expensive cars? Maybe a Lexus has the same ride as a Rolls Royce for a quarter the price (just guessing, just trying an analogy, have no idea), I think the Lexus looks better, but a Rolls Royce is a statement. At the very least, it looks distinctive enough that there's no doubt that its owner is stinking rich.
There are various standards in place for cables used in engineering, but these standards are set by engineers and not by audiophiles. See e.g. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/cable/coaxperf.html#power
By the way, it is reasonable for top quality cables to be rather more expensive than what Axiom charges for speaker cables. My employer (Agilent) for example sells ordinary rugged BNC-connector cables for something like a hundred bucks per meter. Other manufactures sell semi-rigid cables for precision testing from DC to 40 GHz, charging maybe a hundred bucks per foot. (At the highest frequencies, they normally come with special connectors that require torque wrenches to get the connection just right, but below a few hundred MHz you don't need anything better than BNC.)
But such cables are sold with any claims of resistance, impedance, leakage, shielding, all independently verifiable. I simply cannot imagine how you could get better transmission of an audio signal (better meaning less noise, better controlled cable capacitance and inductance, at all frequencies) than what you'd get with a conventional ~$500 cable used for test and measurement.
If cables really mattered to audio, what you'd see is high-end manufacturers making speakers that require individual, shielded BNC connector cables for the + and -, everyone would buy 50 Ohm cables off the shelf (they only cost a couple bucks per foot and are good up to 10s of MHz) and high end receivers would have BNC connector outputs for the speakers. Since the cables would be of a known impedance, speaker design would be simplified. For the ultimate in high fidelity, "triaxial" cables could be used, since these reduce the leakage (and noise) in cables still further, and would only cost maybe twice as much as regular coax if that. Snobs could get the Agilent quality cables (they look nicer, they're supple, the connectors are top-notch) and the rest of us could get RF cables for the same cost as Monster cables. Amazing but true.
But the need clearly isn't there, thus all we're left with is marketing-driven nonsense like hi-fi cables.
I disagree, somewhat, with you!
I just don't think that the current situation is simply nonsense!!!!!!
IT IS CONSUMER FRAUD!!!!!!!!!!!
Other than that, your post was EXCELLENT! You gave some EXCELLENT examples.
I guess though if the money is of no concern, why not.
There are folks here where I live who own multi-million dollar houses and only stay there a month or so out of the year, there's one not too terribly far that is worth 2 million and the folks use it only for Thanksgiving. They have a staff of folks who manage it throughout the year. Now to me, that's unreal!
yes, my summer home in The Hamptons can get soo run down without the hired help...
bigjohn
In reply to:
yes, my summer home in The Hamptons can get soo run down without the hired help
Speaking of which, Mr. John, I skimmed the pool using Fishnet stockings as you requested. Should I have taken them off the young lady first?
Anyone headed to Minneapolis anytime soon? If so, I know how to get you a free one way ticket that includes accomodations at a 4 Star Hotel.
Stuff like this actually makes me very, very mad. Sure, rich guys can do what they want with their money, and who am I to police their activity. Certainly, I'm in no position to tell them how they should or should not wile away their time or p*ss away their cash.
But some of these rich guys actually think that the stuff works, and that is why they buy it. Take my father in law, for example. On a much smaller scale, he was taken for a cable ride by teh guys at Tweeter who sold him his plasma. After spendign 10 grand on the TV, they insisted that he needed $1.25 a foot cabling for his speakers and that he needed special cabling for his television hook-up. They also insisted that he buy a powe conditioner. They told him that without these "necessary" cables, they couldn't gaurantee that his TV would operate properly. After all was said and done, he spent nearly another $1000 bucks on wires and conditioners. All money wasted - but he did it because he didnt' know any better, and he thought that this was just part of the deal.
Now, if you think of it, there is simply no way that a manufacturer would require that you buy such expensive cables, lest their TV look like crap. People would be returning their plasmas at unprecedented rates. But, for the unwitting or the unwise, they take the advise given to them (told to them by a guy who probably also doesn't know, but was told by the people in marketing that it must be done), and they buy this overpriced non-sense.
This is where I agree that the FCC needs to step in. Audio jewelry is commonly purchased not because it makes the purchaser appear rich, but because the purchaser thinks that more money gets him a better sound/picture - which is untrue, and is a fraud on the consumer.
It just needs to stop.
But maybe it should start with a couple of free one-way tickets to Minneapolis to enjoy the sites.
Your point about store salesmen is well taken. They were probably on a commission format and were there to sell all that they could.
The buyer must beware!