Maximum usable dB for each speaker model?

I was wondering, more out of ignorance, the following:

When the manufacturer states, for a given speaker, 150W max amp power and a frequency range of 60Hz to 22kHz, given a "pure" unequalized signal, that the speaker will perform distortion free (or even port noise free) at that wattage or does that mean the max wattage before the speaker will start experiencing some sort of permanent damage?

The reason I ask is that I suspect, for a dedicated and modestly sized Media Room that "contains all the sound energy", I will not need large speakers like someone with a listening area open to other rooms. I have already been down that road with HUGE speakers for exceptional sound. In the past it has typically been the bigger the speaker (in a given line) the better the sound quality. Current market demands for small speakers have seemingly pushed manufacturers to offer the same quality in a smaller speaker but with less output (be it sound or low frequency...there always has to be a trade-off).

I know it is possible to order Axiom speakers and if you are not happy to return them and upgrade but my wife has little tolerance for that and expects me to get it right the first time.

I have been considering the M2i but even Doug Schneider had it crossed over at 100Hz, seemingly to prevent port noise (he did not say at what level he was listening). I'd prefer 80Hz.

I have decided to mount speakers on wall brackets below the screen to 1)avoid being too close to the side walls to prevent/reduce boundary effect, 2)allow for better speaker positioning and 3)not to compromise the integrity of my vapour barrier by using inwalls.

M2i speakers would work best size-wise as I would like to avoid m22ti speakers mounted in a horizontal arrangement. If all else fails I may have to use M22ti speakers mounted lower vertically and try to keep the tweeter as close as possible to ear level.

I will also be using the identical speaker for all three fronts to get the "best" sound (thanks to Axiom for the Factory Outlet where I can have the option of ordering a single speaker).

Anyone?

Bruce, at least in theory, the published maximum power spec is supposed to be power that could be input continuously without the speaker being permanently damaged. It doesn't directly relate to any considerations of distortion or port noise. All speakers have considerable(compared to electronics)distortion at far less than that maximum power number, which is unlikely to be used in typical home listening, since it would be equivalent to about 109dB for 150 watts at the listening position, considering the 87dB sensitivity rating of the M2.

I didn't note that Schneider gave a crossover number in his review of the M2, although he did comment that the usable bass was to about 70Hz. A 80Hz crossover for the M2s should work well, judging from the NRC graph. The M22 did show lower distortion at high levels in the NRC tests and might be preferred for that and its slightly higher sensitivity. My M22s worked just fine right on the floor and tilted slightly backwards(the tweeters don't necessarily have to be at ear level if they point to ear level)when I experimented with them when they first arrived. I would think that you could do the same if you had about 20" of room below the screen and wouldn't even have to bother with wall brackets.

You can order single speakers through the main page and not just the factory outlet, unless there's some secret rule I don't know about. Right under the picture on the product page it has 'add pair' and 'add single' options. Just a heads up if you don't want to wait for the factory outlet.

And Bruce... if you and the missus want to give a listen, let me know... I can at least give you an audition of M3s... which, with their lower stretch into the bass, might be an option.

Seriously, no trouble at all.

Bren R.

Brens' suggestion of at least looking at the M3s is a good one.

I ran three M3s across the front with great success until we moved into a larger place and I had to go to floorstanders for mains.

Still running the single M3 as center though!!

I cross my M3s at 60, so 80 is absolutely no problem!

Note: I also like to run M3s as surrounds as well as center, all inverted for tweeter location.

I also like mustard and wasabe on waffles; so.....

Thanks Bren. I will definitely take you up on that offer at some point. It is probably better that my wife sees and hears speakers closer to the size I am actually going to purchase (unless of course I end up purchasing the M3s as they are close to the same size and price).

I figure the wall brackets will save the speakers from the vacuum.

Bren, did you audition the M2s or just went straight for the M3s?

In case it helps, here are my notes from comparing M2 with M3. This was more in the context of standalone use w/o sub but there may be some useful points. For what it's worth, if I was putting together a system for a medium sized room and was concerned about SPL I would happily go with M3s over M2s. For a small room where I know the M2s would be loud enough I would probably stay with M2s since the mid-bass is a bit flatter. The "M3s are more laid-back" point is true but more subtle than you might expect.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=ST&Number=86248&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1

>>I have decided to mount speakers on wall brackets below the screen to 1)avoid being too close to the side walls to prevent/reduce boundary effect, 2)allow for better speaker positioning and 3)not to compromise the integrity of my vapour barrier by using inwalls.

One concern with this approach is that the sound is not going to appear to come from the screen, ie voices won't appear to come from people's mouths. I find this disconcerting although not everyone does.

Best approach seems to be to have mains and center "averaging" to the centerline of the screen, eg if your center is above the screen then have the mains below the centerline so with a typical mix the sound will seem to come from near the center of the screen. Just a thought...

I would dearly love to see the sensitivity and power handling numbers combined into a single "this is how loud they will comfortably play" ranking but you would need to be a lot more nitpicky with the power handling -- today it is never totally clear whether the number is "this is the amount of power required to play average content at the loudest level this speaker is happy with", or "this is a good size of amplifier to match with this speaker", or "above this power level you're gonna be melting voice coils, buddy !!"

I'll second the M3's.I also run them as surrounds mounted on my back wall about 7ft high with fmb's.Sometimes I play them and my M60's in 4 speaker direct or just turn off the 60's and kick back and enjoy the M3's.Love them so much I am going to get a second pair for another room

I definitely like the sound of the M3, even though I am using them as centers. I may have to get another set for the computer room to run as mains.

In reply to:
Bren, did you audition the M2s or just went straight for the M3s?

I've heard the whole line of bookshelves now. And exactly as you think they'll sound... they sound... the M3s with the bigger woofer extend a bit deeper and stand alone without a sub fairly well (in fact if not for the S.O. I'd probably be happy enough without a sub)... the M22s (even as an M3 owner) are clearer (more detailed as the audio fan vocab nazis would say) but I'd say a bit thinner... one of those cusp things... the M22s are more accurate, absolutely... but the M3s sound fuller to me. Having said that, I've had the M3s since we moved in, and I listened to the M22s for a grand total of 2 movies I think. While I technically haven't heard M2s, the M22s with the bottom driver taken out of circuit's a close approximation. Not perfect, since the enclosure's the wrong size, then... and I really wasn't too impressed... don't get me wrong, they're better than Paradigm Mini Monitors to my ears, and I'd use a pair for a living area stereo or my office or something, but I much prefer the M3s.

And I just took a flyer, guessed at what I'd be happy with, and think I nailed it... eventually I will probably move to M60s just because in hindsight, I don't really like the look of bookshelves on stands, not due to performance issues.

And seriously, the door's open anytime you want.

Bren R.

Thanks for the input. I realized a couple of things with respect to these speakers and how my listening room will likely end up.

If I mount the speakers under the screen (no room over the screen...as in 0.00") with the brackets, I am still going to experience boundary effect. At 2-3/8" from the back of the speaker to the wall, that will definitely give a boost in the lower frequencies.

For the M2 or M22 that might be a good thing. For the M3 it may not. In the past I have always tried to keep the speakers a minimum of 2 feet from the back and side walls.

I do have an existing subwoofer left over from my previous Mirage system so low frequncies will not be a problem.

I have to agree with you about speaker stands. I dont like them. Used them for previous speakers and for one, I did not like the look. I do remember web-surfing and found a large clamp-like speaker stand that kind of makes a bookshelf appear like a floor stander. It was two large pieces of exotic wood that somehow fastened to or around the speaker in a very aesthetic fashion and supposed to empower the speaker with more sonic character or something. Another marketing gimmick but they sure looked nice.

In reply to:
the M22s (even as an M3 owner) are clearer (more detailed as the audio fan vocab nazis would say) but I'd say a bit thinner... one of those cusp things... the M22s are more accurate, absolutely... but the M3s sound fuller to me

That's because you have not heard the M60s!!

You've echoed my own thoughts from 3 years ago on the M22s vs M60s. I know i have another, longer post on the comparison between the two, but i can't locate it in my huge list of favorites at the moment. The 'thinness' of the M22s esp. compared to the M60s is a huge reason as to why we went with the larger speaker.
The two of you really should quit all this yappin about listening and drag your carcasses over here for a sip and an earful.

Ahhhhh temptation!

To be honest, I am about ready to pop on over with the wife for a listen. I reeeally want to see/hear your listening room.

I was toying with the idea of dragging over my Monitor Audio GR-60s for a comparison but it has to get a lot drier out before that (not to mention I'd have to find a box for one of them). The wood veneer cabinets got a little beat up by FedEx when I bought them from another user but they work fine otherwise (insurance money is paying for the home theater room

).

In reply to:
The two of you really should quit all this yappin about listening and drag your carcasses over here for a sip and an earful.

This weekend's out... I'll bring M3s and the SS24 stands (RIP) when we do it though.

Bren R.

SS4 stands, MA GR60s, oh my.

Bruce, you had better bring those GR60s or i may not let you in the door. Talk about a must do comparison with the Axioms!!
I'll see about getting a speaker switcher that day. Mine is still up for modifications before use. It might be workable, but i would rather have a fully functioning unit.

Sounds like a plan is formulating.
What more would people like than another speaker shoot-out

.

According to Alan, the M60s are the "match" to the MA-GR60s. They have the identical driver compliment, though I believe the Axioms can handle more power.

Bruce, you bring those GR60s and we'll pair them against Bren's M3s, my M60s and some Tannoy D700s. Since Bren's M3s would be size outclassed, i can pull my Tannoy Revolution R1s from the office for a go.
They should be a reasonable competitor.

I'd say it is too bad I just recently sold my Mirage 895is speakers but then again it would get pretty crowded.

You just push Bren off to the side a bit more is all.

In reply to:
You just push Bren off to the side a bit more is all.

Ever tried pushing a solid, if gangly, Irishman?

This is turning into a speaker shootout?

Bren R.

In reply to:
Ever tried pushing a solid, if gangly, Irishman?

No need to push. Just line up shots of whiskey on the floor in the direction you need him to move.

I've now fulfilled my daily sterotype quota.

In reply to:
This is turning into a speaker shootout

Apparently it is quite possible with the number of units we can bring together.
Bruce really has me excited about hearing these GR60s esp. in comparison to the Axioims in an A/B blind fashion.

This is going to be interesting for me since I have not had any time to listen to the GR60s. I listened to the GR10s at Creative Audio prior to picking these up so I should have a fairly unbiased opinion.

The only other speakers that I had listened to extensively were Mirage M3si and 895i speakers (my former front and rear speakers) Polk Monitor bookshelves and a few select other high-end speakers at Creative Audio (Hale Audio - no longer in business, Martin Logan - really wanted these but they were waaaay too big, Paradigm Reference, etc. etc.)

Bruce, when exactly did you buy the GR60s?
They are quite a nice speaker It is the only brand that i can honestly say so far i've heard in a store that has really impressed me. I was surprised and unimpressed by the size of the smaller Silver S6s i auditioned. In comparitive price, the M60s are a much larger, sturdier built unit. Since i could not audition them in my home, i'm unsure of the difference these two models would have on filling a room with sound. By physics alone i would expect the M60 to fare better in this comparison, but the GR60s are the larger models of the MA lineup.
It would truly be an interesting pairing with the Axioms, let alone with my even larger Tannoy D700s

,

and

.

Some fellow posted pretty reasonable thoughts here, although i've never found mine to be bright.

I think a test of the Tannoy Revolution Ones with Bren's M3s would also be very interesting to hear. Too bad we don't have a local pair of M22 to throw into that mix, although we could use the M60s by turning off the lower end below 80Hz or so. It migtht come close to emulating the M22 sound.

I bought the GR-60s over a year ago. Just after moving in to our new house. Long story I won't go into here.

I agree about the sound. I was not impressed by the bronze or silver series. I had a reference point in my former M3si as to the quality I was looking for. In down-sizing I was tempted by the other Mirage omni speakers but wanted the precision of direct radiating.

I was always concerned about the ability of the smaller speakers to properly handle the dynamics and hence shifted to larger speakers. Technology has come a long way since then and hence the original question in this thread.

Those Tannoys are really nice (from Stefanko?). Concentric tweeters! I notice the acoustically isolating carpet under the speaker

. I had soft packing foam under my 895i speakers for a while

.

Alan did say that the power handling of the European speakers were not up to the Axioms. I think I had confirmed from the manufacturer's ratings that this was true.

In reply to:
Those Tannoys are really nice (from Stefanko?)

Nope, used.
I did look at getting new units from there, but the cost was silly. There was also no guarantee of getting what i wanted since the Definition line was cancelled several months before i was going to purchase. Stock was low.

In reply to:
Concentric tweeters!

Yes, an interesting design idea which i think works quite well. The dispersion of sound is very smooth, broad.

In reply to:
I notice the acoustically isolating carpet under the speaker

If that's what you call it. I just didn't have any feet for the speakers and didn't want to do any scratching of either surface, speaker or floor.

In reply to:
Alan did say that the power handling of the European speakers were not up to the Axioms. I think I had confirmed from the manufacturer's ratings that this was true.

Not sure where this came up or in what context. The Tannoys handle alot more power than my Axioms. They can present a heavier load, but if i recall, the smaller models, D500 and D300 were both 8ohm, around 90-91dB/W/m sensitivity (but anechoic or not, i don't know). I've never had my Onkyo receiver shut down while driving the Tannoys at reasonable volumes.

Is Tannoy the brown one on the left or the black one in the middle?

I'm thinking that the black-finished one is a little small to be a floorstander. Breathtaking finish, though.

Tannoy is the one up top.

In reply to:
Is Tannoy the brown one on the left or the black one in the middle?

I'm thinking that the black-finished one is a little small to be a floorstander. Breathtaking finish, though.

I personally prefer a vinyl finish rather than fur(it muffles the high end to much) lol

Bruce, Bren
We should setup this listening session for April if you have open schedules.
Its been put off too long already darn it.

I would love to. My little one currently has an acute ear infection so this next weekend is out. I'll run it by the wife before I commit to anything that will result in getting the silent treatment

. Can we agree that it would be a Saturday?

In reply to:
My little one currently has an acute ear infection so this next weekend is out.

What better way to cure an infection than to shake it out with high SPLs?

Bren R.

I would say a saturday afternoon or early evening works fine with me.

Hello,

I hope that I'm not that annoying kid who keeps trying to get invited to cool kid's birthday parties but I would love to be there for the Axiom vs. Monitor Audio shoot-out.

If it is ok for me to join you then my vote goes for Saturday sometime as well.

All the best,

Jordan

If Bren wears his sporty glasses at the 'event' i will vote him to be the only cool kid there by default.

I own sporty glasses?

Bren R.

Hey Chesseroo,

Love the picture of your two dogs with the Tannoy. I'm really interested in the concentric tweeter and how the imaging and soundstage compare to, say, the Axiom or Monitor Audio dome tweeters.

The reason I ask is that quite a few years ago, KEF introduced a series of speakers with concentric tweeters. In tests, the KEFs were very coloured by comparison to speakers from several Canadian manufacturers that used dome tweeters. I had this theory that the woofer cone caused cancellations and reinforcements of the tweeter's output, in effect horn-loading the tweeter with unpleasant results.

I never had a chance to do tests on Tannoy speakers that used concentric tweeters, or on any Tannoy speakers, hence my interest.
Regards,

Oh indeed Bren.
Very sporty.

In reply to:
I'm really interested in the concentric tweeter and how the imaging and soundstage compare to, say, the Axiom or Monitor Audio dome tweeters.

The reason I ask is that quite a few years ago, KEF introduced a series of speakers with concentric tweeters. In tests, the KEFs were very coloured by comparison to speakers from several Canadian manufacturers that used dome tweeters. I had this theory that the woofer cone caused cancellations and reinforcements of the tweeter's output, in effect horn-loading the tweeter with unpleasant results.

I never had a chance to do tests on Tannoy speakers that used concentric tweeters, or on any Tannoy speakers, hence my interest.,

This is an interesting question Alan.

I've actually A/B'd the Axiom M60s with these Tannoy Definition D700s before, in a blind fashion, using a switcher, a friend, and a Parasound Halo A23 amp which gratefully had indivdiual gain knobs on the backside for each speaker channel. This made for a great comparison using all the same equipment and being able to adjust for SPL differences between the speakers.
We played music in mono mode and placed the speakers about 10' in front of a single cushy chair.
The person listening used a blindfold and would ask to switch between the speakers at will. The listening distance was set perfectly such that neither of us could tell which speaker was playing at any time based on left or right ear orientation. We each took a turn listening to the switching routine and taking our time with some standard test discs we made back when my friend was looking for speakers. We both got so good at understanding the sound of the two speakers that even by madly switching between the two, the listening person could correctly guess which speaker the switch had on at a particular point.

The primary differences noted between the M60 and the Tannoy were as follows (and we both scribbled similar conclusions on this):
The Tannoys had more bass but not an overbearing bass, just heavier. They had more clarity in the upper end which was something i found surprising. The first time i heard the two i guessed that the Axioms were the ones with that sharper clarity and i was wrong. The Tannoys also were king in the soundstage area, but considering the difference in driver size and speaker widths, this may account for such a large difference. The Tannoys were extraordinarily easy to place and even putting them a toe in or out a couple of degrees, shifting upward or downward, did little to change the overall sound.
However, the M60s had more forward presence, felt like the sound was closer to the sitting area, more live. Their bass was, for lack of a better description, 'fast' bass. The drivers seem to recover much faster and bass didn't linger as long. This probably should not have been a surprise either since the Tannoy is using a 10" polypropylene cone while the Axioms use a 6" aluminum. Big difference in size and stiffness. I like both types of bass. One seems to sound more accurate, but perhaps thin, while the other creates more presence in a larger room where no sub is required. The Tannoys do have port bungs to help control some of the bass output and i only have 1 of 2 bungs in each speaker.
Unfortunately i do not remember much about the midrange and i lost the notes i took that day. I want to redo the listening test again now that i have a room far more conducive to listening to material.
Against a speaker that retails at 6k+ Cdn, the Axioms hold their own quite well. I've mentioned before that i prefer this Tannoy sound (ever since this A/B audition really) and for me, the extra price for the Tannoy is worthwhile. Specs on the series can be found in this pdf file. The fact that i got them used and in near mint condition for only 4k certainly helps.
I cannot comment on how KEF may have designed and introduced their concentric drivers, but i do know of the KEF i last heard, i was not very impressed. It did sound like a horn loaded speaker but it was using a normal dome tweeter. Compared to the M60s, which we had next to the KEFs but w/o a switcher, they did sound coloured, but this was some time ago so maybe they were just different. Nonetheless, I'm not a fan.

If i can get Bren and BruceH over here, the M60s and the Tannoys are on the block, hopefully with Bruce's MonitorAudio GR60s for a head to head comparison. I do not have the Halo amp anymore though, so our options for switching between speakers using the exact same equipment AND having the speakers matched in SPL is going to be a bit of a trial. I'm working on getting my gain controlled speaker switcher running by then, but i'm in a design phase looking for some better parts. I want to change out the pots for a different type and i need to drill then solder some banana jacks on the rear, removing the present, horrible little hookups that exist.

If they don't come over, i will probably end up doing this test again anyway at some point. Stay tuned....

Hi Chess,

Thanks for the interesting feedback on the Tannoys and the Axioms. I knew Tannoys were expensive but 4k used? I hesitate to ask how much they are new.

I see from recent ads that KEF is still using the Uni-Q coincident drivers, which in my view were a major engineering mis-step, so it's interesting to hear your feedback on those as well.

Regards,

The models that we bought we about 6k Cdn new, which is no doubt an inflated price although i was told that Tannoy sets their prices like Saturn cars, the price is the price.

The model that would better compare in size to the M60 would be the D500, not the D700. Its new retail price was about $4200 if i recall but still weighed in at more than 60 lbs a piece. There is quite a bit more material and bracing inside these Definition cabinets. Their shape has the same tapered rear design as Axiom, something they built into this series since its debut around 1992.

I am tentatively thinking of the afternoon of the 29th for a listening test (I don't think I will have our truck back from the shop for this upcoming weekend to transport the speakers). How does that sound to you Bren and Chesseroo?

Chess, do you think you will have a speaker switcher setup by then or do you need more time?

Bruce, i'll move this thread over to the appropriate forum and reply.