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#119290 - 12/06/05 07:25 PM Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2146751/300-gb-disc-set-challenge-dvd

This could beat them both. (yes, I'm a computer guy that doesn't know how to make it a link, feel free to fix it)

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#119291 - 12/06/05 07:28 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Sutter Cane Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 626
Loc: Wichita, KS

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#119292 - 12/07/05 05:35 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
1920x1080 is the holy grail of HD. (It's been the standard HD resolution for ages - despite what TV manufacurers try to sell you.)

These new holographic discs are amazing, but HD-DVD and BlueRay are both capable of holding a full movie at 1920x1080, that much added storage isn't needed for consumer movies.

Those discs are VERY, VERY cool though. I could use something like that here at the office! I play with 5,6, and even 8k images all day. The more storage space the better!




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"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#119293 - 12/07/05 06:20 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
LightninJoe Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Portland, OR
1/3 Terrabyte discs will revolutionize data archiving. We have a 14-slot Automatic Tape Library at work that is barely big enough (at 80GB per tape) to hold our backups. Plus we have a separate 2-slot unit for our email server. When the 300GB discs reach commodity level there will be no reason to buy $8000 libraries and $80 tapes.
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"That's some catch, that Catch-22." "It's the best there is." M22ti VP150 EP350 QS8 M3Ti

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#119294 - 12/07/05 07:10 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16298
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
LightninJoe,

When 300GB disks reach commodity level, we'll have ways of filling them rather quickly, I'm sure.
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#119295 - 12/07/05 10:07 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
In reply to:

I could use something like that here at the office! I play with 5,6, and even 8k images all day.




You know, 8k bytes isn't that big of an image is it?

We are using an STK L180 which holds almost 180 cartridges. Currently using SDLT 320. Each will hold anywhere from about 250 to over 400 GB, depending on the files. Binary images like jpegs and zip files don't compress more than they already are, but the Unix files are all ascii text, so you can get a lot of data on the tape.

This doesn't seem like that much storage to me, but it's all relative. It certainly would be a big step for home use. If it can be cheaper and more reliable than SDLT or LTO tape technology, then look out!


Edited by dllewel (12/07/05 10:09 PM)
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M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#119296 - 12/07/05 10:40 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
Oooh, me want, me want!

The biggest tape autoloader I get to play with is an HP SSL1016, at 16 LTO-2 (200 GB native) tapes, it holds around 3.75 TB in everyday usage. So far, I haven't gotten my clients to splurge on anything bigger...
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#119297 - 12/08/05 01:17 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
LightninJoe Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Portland, OR
As Napoleon Dynamite would say: "Lucky." The ATL and tapes was a big expense for our little company. We tried to talk them into something with more overhead but they just couldn't do it. So in a few months when we're maxed out they'll have to bite the bullet for another ATL, probably starting with one drive. Of course this wouldn't have happened if the Controller hadn't decided she needed a $100K ERP system. Oh well, our source code and documentation are always first priority. When we start telling the Sales folk that we can't back up all of their email and user folders you KNOW money will magically appear. @#$% Sales. On the other hand they DO spend most of their resources on their employees, because a SW engineering company is just a box with computers in it without the people. And our 40 person company is WAY less stressful than Intel was. BTW I can't imagine how long it takes for a 300GB tape to complete a backup. Don't want to either. *sigh* Soon enough. Databases just keep growing and growing and growing. Our source code and doc folders take up only 4GB, most of it docs. The smallest database one of our customers might keep is 20GB. We store copies here for our DBA's to "massage" as they like to put it.
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"That's some catch, that Catch-22." "It's the best there is." M22ti VP150 EP350 QS8 M3Ti

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#119298 - 12/08/05 01:46 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
NEW2AXIOM Offline
devotee

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 317
Loc: Raleigh
Im kinda going off topic here but.. Im not really in a rush for HD-DVD or Blue Ray. My HDMI P-Scan DVD player connected to my 1080p DLP playing a DVD that has been made for 16:9 ratio looks perfect. The image couldnt be any clearer.
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#119299 - 12/08/05 02:16 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16298
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

couldnt be any clearer.


famous last words.
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#119300 - 12/08/05 02:44 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
You'd be amazed at how fast the new drives are getting. I'm seeing transfer rates of around 1.2-1.5 GB/minute on the LTO2 units (at least when they're directly connected to the machine with the storage array on it). I think SDLTs are similar.

BTW, (don't work for them or anything) Breece Hill is relatively affordable in terms of autoloaders, and they have a 3 year advance replacement warranty. Which I will probably get to take advantage of tomorrow. Sigh.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#119301 - 12/08/05 04:41 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
TNTguy Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 325
Loc: Utah
I keep wondering how quickly HD movies will be released. I have a feeling that if they don't sell well initially (which I don't think they will for a couple of years for numerous reasons), many movies will take years before their appearance on high definition disks.

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#119302 - 12/08/05 07:29 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
F107plus5 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 2034
Loc: Fla. Orig. Mich.
Think I'll ask the guy down the street with the Bose system flanking his RCA TV and see what he thinks about replacing his current DVD player.

Should be enlightning.

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#119303 - 12/08/05 10:11 AM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Yes, they are pretty fast. Our SDLT are getting up to 30 MB/sec, or 1.75GB a minute = 100GB an hour. This is for the local SAN attached Unix servers. The other systems we backup over the LAN have gotten up to 20MB/sec, if they are running GigEthernet. I've noticed quite a speed variance between server backups that is attributed to the CPU/system speed of the server that's being backed up.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#119304 - 12/08/05 01:16 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
LightninJoe Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Portland, OR
Not bad at all. I'm sure we are going to have to move up to newer tech on our backup system within the next year or so. We already have Gig-E in our server room and to about half of the offfices and cubes. Our servers are all less than 3 years old and most less than a year. We just installed a SAN 2 months ago. So we shouldn't have any severe bottlenecks limiting a high-speed backup solution. It's just talking the people "upstairs" into it. Since the other SA/NE and I came aboard we have dragged them kicking screaming into an "enterprise-level" server room. When we started the "servers" were mostly desktop computers sitting UNDER desks with a couple of out-of-warranty dual proc servers for mail and file serving. They were also using atrocious Dell switches. Since then we have crowbarred them into a dedicated server room, new servers, an ATL, Cisco network gear (including PIX firewalls, they were using Microsoft Proxy server! UGH!), a new UPS solution (instead of a mix of desktop UPS's) and some odds and ends. Our server availability is within a very small fraction of 100%. Network outages are almost nonextistent. But they just don't get the idea that we need a more flexible backup solution.
_________________________
"That's some catch, that Catch-22." "It's the best there is." M22ti VP150 EP350 QS8 M3Ti

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#119305 - 12/08/05 03:31 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Spence Offline
buff

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Wisconsin - USA
"These new holographic discs are amazing, but HD-DVD and BlueRay are both capable of holding a full movie at 1920x1080, that much added storage isn't needed for consumer movies."

In the near future (within 20 years), quotes such as these come back as looking pretty darn funny!

http://ifaq.wap.org/computers/famousquotes.html

http://www.pcsndreams.com/Pages/TechQuotes1.htm

Right along the same lines as;
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

or better yet;
640K ought to be enough for anybody.
-Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, 1981

The truth is, that we can't accurately predict what technologies of the future will emerge. Yes, everything appears to be getting smaller and everything appears to be going faster, but who would have thought that optical media would bring full length motion pictures, with descrete multi-channel audio (not to mention extras) into our homes, back in the 1940s!

As far as the entertainment industry's use of holographic storage? It will be used in the future, perhaps not in our homes, so much as future digitally projected films at your local "cine-mall" (did I just coin a new word?) requiring even greater amounts of data.

Heck, perhaps 3D holographic entertainment may become a reality. Given the larger amount of data required to reproduce three dimensional image, technology such as this may actually prove to be an integral componant.

...just my observational $.02

Regards,
Spence


Edited by Spence (12/08/05 03:37 PM)
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"Someone tries to kill you - you kill 'em right back!" Capt. Mal Reynolds

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#119306 - 12/08/05 03:41 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10965
Loc: Central NH

I've read these quotes before and I've always wondered how accurate some of these are. I would be easy to imagine that Bill Gates actually said "640K ought to be enough for anybody [at this point in time]." Or, that Tom Watson said "I think there is a world market for maybe five [super] computers."

It's not that I can't fathom people saying things without foresight, but it's hard to believe that these people had any success having that little foresight into their own industry.

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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#119307 - 12/08/05 03:53 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Spence Offline
buff

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Wisconsin - USA
...but they must be true, I found them on the internet!

Seriously, you are right on the mark, ...Mark. I was just making a point (hopefully a humorous one, alas I am oft not "got").

...and for the record, I didn't coin a new word (Cine-Mall), it is in use all over the internet. I've been scooped again!

Regards,

Spence
_________________________
"Someone tries to kill you - you kill 'em right back!" Capt. Mal Reynolds

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#119308 - 12/08/05 04:16 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
LightninJoe Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Portland, OR
I believe the Gates quote was along the lines of "I can't see anyone needing more than 640K in the forseeable future." Remember that the developer community at the time had been going out of their way for years to create the smallest, most efficient code they could. Nowadays it's a disgusting, bloated resource orgy as far as most commercial software is concerned. Woz just commented on it the other day.
_________________________
"That's some catch, that Catch-22." "It's the best there is." M22ti VP150 EP350 QS8 M3Ti

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#119309 - 12/08/05 04:21 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
LightninJoe Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Portland, OR
I forgot to add: The computer folks at the time knew that 32-bit computing was on the horizon as far as the PC platform goes, with it's extended memory capabilties and so forth. It just happened faster than they thought it would. MS was already looking into the system that eventually became Windows NT, which was meant to be an enterprise server and workstation solution. That people would need 32-bit and huge amounts of memory on a standard desktop withing a few years was seemingly out of the question. It's a matter of being overwhelmed by a situation you helped to create.
_________________________
"That's some catch, that Catch-22." "It's the best there is." M22ti VP150 EP350 QS8 M3Ti

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#119310 - 12/08/05 06:01 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
When I say 8k images I meant 8192x6144 images. At just over 200Mb per frame, and 24 frames in a single second of footage, the data piles up mighty fast!

Unless screen sizes in people's homes get much larger than the current 60"+ we have now, or even the 120"+ screens in FP systems, there's really not much need for anything more than 1920x1080. Hell, if you go to your local cinema and watch a movie, it's likely been film recorded at 1828x988 on to 35mm film. (Granted the original film had MUCH higher resolution.) Digital projectors in theatres are also only 2K.

4K projectors are just starting to see the light of day, and honestly I think in the 35mm world, 4K projectors and digital cameras will be the standard in the future. These holographic discs will likely help move digital capture and projection forward towards 4K.

But in the home? Why would you need that much resolution? Unless you have massive screen sizes, you simply don't need that much resolution.




Edited by spiffnme (12/08/05 06:08 PM)
_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#119311 - 12/08/05 06:04 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16298
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
When do you expect work on the secret IMAX:Home equipment to finish?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#119312 - 12/08/05 06:04 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
I was joking about the 8k image thing

But thanks for posting that info. Interesting. And I agree, 1080p should be adequate for most home theaters.

But watch, that statement will be as foolish as the others in a few years

_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#119313 - 12/08/05 07:33 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
I hope they up the res on digital projection. I can see pixels pretty easily...
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#119314 - 12/08/05 07:38 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
I'm pretty sure 4k will eventually be the standard for digital projection and capture in the movie industry (sans IMAX).

2k in the home, 4k at the cinema.


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#119315 - 12/08/05 07:50 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
Spence Offline
buff

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Wisconsin - USA
Why in the home?

Because they can my friend!

Think of the extras that could be put on a disc of that capacity. Lower compression for video, higher bitrate for audio.

Heck, a disc of that size would be George Lucas's dream! He could market 30 or so versions of each Star Wars film, in HD, WITH all kinds of extras and sell them on a single disc!

Imagine having access to an entire library of films. Yes, cost would be a consideration, but on older films that have gone into public domain, a couple hundred movies could be "shoveled" onto a disc of that size!

How about the data possibilities? What about the possibility of maintaining your own personal library of literary works?

Yeah it'll come, but I wouldn't hold my breath. There is too much money to be made on the HD/BluRay products (if marketed correctly).

Regards,
Spence
_________________________
"Someone tries to kill you - you kill 'em right back!" Capt. Mal Reynolds

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#119316 - 12/09/05 03:56 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Lower compression and higher bit rates, sure, but higher resolution? Not needed.

I always thought with the advent of DVD, that we'd be blessed with DVD's with the entire Beatles work. DVD's have the capacity. ??? I'm guessing it's a marketing thing...do you want your customers to buy 20 cd's or one dvd?


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#119317 - 12/09/05 04:11 PM Re: Who needs HD-DVD or Blue Ray?!
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Craig, I obviously do not want you to divulge proprietary information, but is the projected IMAX image the 8k one you referred to, or is that image size just for the production end of things?

Just curious.
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