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#144019 - 07/23/06 07:26 PM Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807
osvijazz Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Gurabo, Puerto Rico
Hi everyone. Thanks to all the people who responded to my last post " M60's owners...what receiver/amp do you have?". I went to pick up a Denon 2807, I liked the reviews and the ipod capability but when I got to the store I also asked about the Yamaha 2600 and the salesman just smiled at me. Well, they had both receivers side by side, perfect for a comparison. To my ears and to my taste the Yamaha just sounded better. Vocals were very present, the Denon kinda burried them a little. Soundstage is huge and very detailed. The Yamaha just sounded better overall imo so that's what i got. So again, thanks for your input.

osvi
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osvi

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#144020 - 07/24/06 12:08 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10308
Osvaldo, enjoy. Those in-store comparisons aren't necessarily perfect(especially when the salesman smiles!)because small differences in adjustments can account for differences heard. Nevertheless you got an excellent receiver in the 2600; in case you didn't see it, the very good review and lab measurements that Sound&Vision did is found beginning here .
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#144021 - 07/24/06 04:45 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
ElTorrente Offline
buff

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 54
I'm sure Denon or Yamaha would both sound great depending on how it was setup. I've had an RX-V2400 for a couple years and I love it. It has a lot power and all the bells and whistles you would need. I bought an Outlaw 1070 for my computer setup, and am currently listening to it, and the Yamaha is quite a bit more powerful. Well it SHOULD be, since it's rated much higher, but I assumed it would only actually put out about as much as the Outlaw (which doesn't overrate their amplifier power). I was pleasantly surprised to find my Yamaha putting out significantly more power.

It sounds clean and I have no complaints. I was thinking that I would like the Outlaw better and would replace the Yamaha with it, but after comparing the two I like the Yamaha a little better. Nothing wrong with the Outlaw, though- I guess I just don't have a need to mess with my HT setup since it's working so well right now and has plenty of power.

I got an ICBM bass manager from E-bay that is on the way, and will use this to hook-up my SACD player with, so I can keep everything analog. The Yamaha sounds beautiful on "multi channel input" while listening to SACDs, and also normal CDs sound great like this- but there is no bass management on analog, which is one thing the Outlaw does do.

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#144022 - 07/24/06 08:44 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10694
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

when I got to the store I also asked about the Yamaha 2600 and the salesman just smiled at me. Well, they had both receivers side by side, perfect for a comparison. To my ears and to my taste the Yamaha just sounded better.




I promise, I'm not looking to start trouble here, but have to ask:
Were both receivers set to "flat" in terms of bass, treble, EQ functions, and volume? It's so easy to have them set differently via some internal menu that I believe most receiver comparisons in a store are pointless. I could be wrong and I'm not trying to cast doubt on your purchase (I'm sure the Yamaha is a fine product and very well could be superior to the Denon...I don't know).

But it seems as though so many people do an A/B test of receivers or separates in a store, and I wonder how many reset them to absolute flat with all the menu settings. Hell I think my Denon 3805 offers a "direct" and a "pure direct" mode with the first still allowing some EQ changes. I could see someone coming in and the salesman saying "let's put them both in "Direct Mode" knowing full well that although one is now bypassing all the "modification possibilities" the other one still has some EQ of their choosing applied to skew the tests.

I've even heard people say that they've gone into a store to compare the sound of receivers and made their choice even though the receivers were hooked up to different speakers....sometimes in another room! This to me is ludicrous, because I don't think anyone would deny that the speakers and the room are going to have a much bigger impact on the sound than the receivers...even if there ARE differences in how receivers sound!

So how does one determine this in a showroom? Let's say you are a believer that electronics sound different or at least open to that possibility. Do you ask that each receiver have a factory reset then and there before the listening test?

I'm not sure if this might have been better if I started a new thread. It's in response to the OP, but I guess it's a bit of a hijack too!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#144023 - 07/24/06 09:30 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: JohnK]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Osvaldo, I agree with John, I never trust those retail stores in regards to having things setup correctly. There is no way to tell if both receivers where setup and calibrated for best sound. Both models are great receivers, however, if both receivers were calibrated correctly, you would not hear much difference if any. The room characteristics play a more important role than the receiver and/or speakers you may be using. Also, I'm sure he was not using Axiom speakers either.

Congratulations on your purchase...
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#144024 - 07/24/06 10:25 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: SirQuack]
osvijazz Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Gurabo, Puerto Rico
I agree on most of the stuff being said here but maybe I should explain a little. This salesman I've known for a while. The comparison was in the same room with the same speakers and music that I brought and movies they had there. We even tested with different settings to see if we could match one receiver with the other. He even told me to bring my M60's and then choose. The salesperson is a Denon advocate but even he had to admit that the Yamaha sounded better. So my point is that even when I had decided I would get the Denon because it was cheaper and it had the ipod capability I couldn't ignore the fact that the Yamaha just sounded better and again, that is just my opinion. Also remember that this is only between these two receivers and it DOES NOT mean I'm saying that Yamaha is better than Denon but for my taste and maybe your's I would say that I liked the Yamaha over the Denon. Lastly, I'm no audiophile or expert but I do know how some electric and acoustic instruments should sound. I posted my experience so that anyone in the same situation can benefit from it. Thanks to all of you for the friendly discussion, I think it all helps other readers.

osvi
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osvi

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#144025 - 07/24/06 10:56 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3825
Loc: Up yonder
Yamaha owners absolutely LOVE their receivers. This has got to mean something. I have never heard one, but have eyeballed them many times. They (in my opinion) have more bells and whistles and functions than any other receiver on the market. I would have bought one myself, but they just don’t have the current that I wanted. In the future I think I will buy Yamaha and use it as a pre amp.

Good choice and congrats.
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#144026 - 07/24/06 11:26 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
You did good.

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#144027 - 07/24/06 11:29 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10694
Loc: Central NH
Osvi-
Hopefully, I worded my post carefully enough for you to know I meant no disrepect, and certainly you didn't make a wrong decision. I'm not one of those people who think that the equipment I use must be best for everyone, I've never even heard a Yamaha and it very well might be better!

I guess I just questioned it because there are so often posts from people who are newbies to the whole thing and it's pretty obvious from their description of the dealer's visit that they were being taken for a ride. That doesn't appear to be the case at all here!

Plus, I really AM curious , from those who do believe that electronics sound different, how they A/B them in such a way as to cut out all the other variables?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#144028 - 07/24/06 07:16 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: MarkSJohnson]
osvijazz Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Gurabo, Puerto Rico
MarkSJohnson-Everything has been well said so don't worry. I need to be especially carefull on my choice of words because I do know english but spanish is my language. But anyway, I always say "in my opinion" because it's really a matter of opinion. I really liked the sense of space and clearness plus the upfront vocal presentation of the Yamaha and maybe someone else likes the more focused darker laid back sound of the Denon. That's like saying a Fender Stratocaster is better than a Gibson Les Paul and vice versa...they are different, and they are both awesome. I do believe there was a pretty big difference in the sound of these two receivers. So all I hope is that this helps whoever is thinking about getting either brand. Thanks again!

osvi
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osvi

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#144029 - 07/24/06 09:50 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4738
Loc: western canada
Quote:

I really liked the sense of space and clearness plus the upfront vocal presentation of the Yamaha and maybe someone else likes the more focused darker laid back sound of the Denon.



Where did that damn blindfold go?
Peter, Peter where the heck did Ken hide that hanky?!
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#144030 - 07/25/06 11:31 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16227
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
The differences you cite between the Denon and the Yamaha simply do not exist in the non-subtle way you describe. Much, if not all, of the perceived can be attributed to "sight bias" -- your eyes have more influence over your perception of sound than you may realize -- and even very slight differences in the loudness of each device at the time you compared them.

Time and time again, perceived differences collapse to statistical insignificance when the testing is done in a controlled environment that minimizes as many variables as possible.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#144031 - 07/25/06 09:22 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
Bilbo_Baggins Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 195
Loc: Utah
I think a lot of the Denon, yamaha, HK discussion do come back to personal taste. I think as with a lot of technology that requires a learning curve to comfortably work all of the options, the discussions lead back to the old Genesis song, "I know what I like, I like what I know".



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#144032 - 07/25/06 09:59 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: Bilbo_Baggins]
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
He dig good.

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#144033 - 07/25/06 11:03 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: pmbuko]
osvijazz Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Gurabo, Puerto Rico
Quote:

The differences you cite between the Denon and the Yamaha simply do not exist in the non-subtle way you describe. Much, if not all, of the perceived can be attributed to "sight bias" -- your eyes have more influence over your perception of sound than you may realize -- and even very slight differences in the loudness of each device at the time you compared them.

Time and time again, perceived differences collapse to statistical insignificance when the testing is done in a controlled environment that minimizes as many variables as possible.




Okay... I think I've have enough. I first asked what did you guys used to power your M60's so I could get a few recommendations. Then, after reading and reading some more I wanted to get the Denon 2807 for what I've already said in previous posts. So...You already know the story and I'm going to be as clear as possible. There was a difference whether you want to believe it or not. And I'll tell you more...there was much more difference between the to receivers in discussion than between my M60's and the Monitor Audio speakers they used there. I'm a professional musician, been playing for more than 25 years and I do know and understand sound. I can more than tell you about soundstage, I can tell you about how clearly the notes on a piano or a guitar can be heard...the actuall voicing on the chord being played. Obviously this may be done on any stereo but is WAY easier on some systems than others. Acoustic bass for example is very hard to define on poor sounding stereos, not so difficult on a pair of M60's with a good power amp-receiver. So please...if you don't have the knowledge or the ears don't assume that is impossible to hear a difference in amps...it's just plain ignorant...As far as "my eyes" being the one to blame let me tell you...how about no lights, dark room kind of listening. You see, my testing was done on a VERY controlled enviroment. Be my guest man, try it yourself and if you can't tell one amp from the other then you need a new pair of ears...if you do percieve a tonal difference then you may choose a favorite...it's that simple.

P.D. I'm really sorry I have to bring this attitude but this guy was just too much.
_________________________
osvi

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#144034 - 07/25/06 11:18 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4738
Loc: western canada
Quote:

I'm a professional musician, been playing for more than 25 years and I do know and understand sound...



Now where have i heard this one before.
No, don't tell me, it will come to me.
Oh ya, from every person who has never done an honest blind test.
Now i remember.

Quote:

if you don't have the knowledge or the ears don't assume that is impossible to hear a difference in amps



There's no such thing as 'golden ears', sorry.
Another proven myth.

Quote:

You see, my testing was done on a VERY controlled enviroment.



By all means, lay out your experimental protocols for me. I would love to read about it. I have, oh, a little experience in this regard.

Have you tried doing some more up to date reading on psychoacoustic audio research? The stuff from 25 years ago is rather out of date. I suggest you start at the Harmon Kardon site, look for their white papers section.
Dr. Toole has published some very detailed stuff. I really don't know if he's a musician, but don't hold it against him eh.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#144035 - 07/26/06 12:16 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: chesseroo]
ElTorrente Offline
buff

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 54
I doubt differences in amplifiers are audible 99% of the time. I don't doubt that there ARE differences, and that in certain situations we could hear them, but for the most part you can rest assured that your particular amplifier is a good one. I would think that we could only notice when playing at high levels, where one amplifier is straining to keep up with the peaks, whereas a more powerful amp would handle it comfortably.

Denon, Yamaha, Outlaw, HK, Pioneer, Sony, etc.. they are all great quality products and you can't go wrong with any of them. Buy the one that fits the budget, and has the features, power, and looks that is desirable.

I read somewhere about doing blind audio tests in controlled environments and people couldn't tell the difference- at all. In fact, they were allowed to bring their own music so they were listening to their favorite reference material. All the responses garnered from the test(s) (I've heard of two of them like this) showed that noone could tell the difference. All amplifiers were setup perfectly with the same exact sound levels beforehand.

At any rate, all that matters is that you are happy with your purchase. I am VERY happy with my RX-V2400, and would recommend to anyone to buy a Yamaha, also. It has the features I want, looks cool, and sounds great.

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#144036 - 07/26/06 12:55 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10308
Osvaldo, as was said, you made an excellent choice in getting the 2600; that being said however, the differences you described simply couldn't exist if all the settings(particularly the precise volume level)were the same. Your sincerity isn't being questioned, so please don't be upset, but our ears can frequently fool us regardless of how experienced we are with sound and music. Only a carefully controlled blind listening test can adequately examine these questions. Dr. Toole has stated in an AES meeting where he discussed the essential requirement that listening be conducted blind that "If we can see what we're listening to, we can't hear it".

The classic example of a blind listening test demonstrating this is found in the Stereo Review test , in which among other results the $12,000 pair of tube amplifiers was indistinguishable from the $220 Pioneer receiver. Note especially the contrast between the open listening before the blind sessions, where the participants describe in somewhat flowery language the differences they're hearing, with the results failing to show such differences when the nameplates and pricetags were concealed.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#144037 - 07/26/06 08:59 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
Osvijazz,

I'm not a professional musician, but I do like listening to music. I've used 3 different receivers in the past couple years, and like you I preferred the Yamaha version over the other two. I will say that soundwise the Yamaha and the current HK sound similar. And like you, the Denon I had was my least favorite. Congratulations, I'm sure you have a great receiver to go with your new speaker system.

Note to the rest of the gang: Please let it go. The man likes his Yammie. We don't need another seemingly endless argument over whether or not amps sound different. We found a new friend. We don't have to chase him away over something so trivial.

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