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#15340 - 07/19/03 08:12 AM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
no,im horrible at this computer and grammer stuff...it takes some of us longer....ron

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#15341 - 07/19/03 12:45 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4732
Loc: western canada
Ron (or anyone else new to computers for that matter),
If you are really self concious about posting a spelling and grammar corrected dialogue then here is a suggestion:
Sometimes when i'm writing a long post, i will use a word processing program like Microsoft Word or Corel Wordperfect.
The program will spell check words and help to correct grammar automatically.
Then i just copy and paste the text into the forum post box.
If you are concerned about your posts at all, this is an easy method to use (especially for those late nights when just about everyone has trouble seeing the screen impaired by eye lid droop and bloodshot eyeballs).

I find that inevitably when i'm writing some lengthy diatribe that lightning strikes our back yard and my computer reboots.
Such is the way of Murphy's Law.
The word processor route makes a backup copy every other minute or so in the event that something like this happens. Hence, for creating a long post, even if my computer reboots, i will not have lost my thoughts which would otherwise occur if you only created the dialogue in the post text box...much like i'm doing right now.

_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#15342 - 07/19/03 01:15 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
Semi_On Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/18/02
Posts: 737
Loc: Scottsdale, Arizona
Chess's advice is good. I do this with our news posts on Ars because I'm infamous for poor grammar and spelling on our front page and some of the audience uses it as an opportunity to bitch, which apparently geeks are fond of.

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#15343 - 07/19/03 03:13 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
There's a reason they make UPSes, ya know. :-)
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#15344 - 07/19/03 05:38 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
thanks guys,but i dont mind being the dumb guy on the board,its all about the music....ron

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#15345 - 07/19/03 09:03 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16221
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I think this forum may be the one place on the entire internet where I haven't seen a single comment about spelling and grammar mistakes, other than from posters who catch their own mistakes.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#15346 - 07/20/03 11:03 AM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Spiff, chess, sushi and all,

I've liked 2-channel and surround for years. The 2-channel purists forget that stereo is intrinsically flawed: it throws the direct sounds from the instruments AND the ambient reflections from the sides and rear at you from two stereo speakers at the front. That is not the way we hear music in real life.

And chess, DPLII isn't really "faked," because on lots of 2-channel recordings, the ambient information is there. It's picked up by the mikes and contained as out of phase info in the 2-channel recording. DPLII extracts the out-of-phase ambient info and redirects it to the side surrounds in an approximation of where the reflections may have originated. DPLII also adds digital delays which would also have been present in the original reflections from the sides, rear and ceiling.

It's true, spiff, what you say about the musicians on lots of pop recordings not being there at the same time, and the positioning is determined by pan pots in the mixdown, but some boutique audiophile labels don't work that way.

Last night, I was at a DVD-Audio recording session in New York for Chesky Records, done with a single Calrec Soundfield mike, which contains four capsules and derives left, center, right and surround channels by means of a matrix arrangement.

The all-acoustic session was a kind of Hot Club of Paris tribute to Django Rheinhart, with Bucky Pizarelli (rhythm and lead guitar) on the left, Johnny Frigo (jazz violin) in the center, Howard Alden (rhythm and lead guitar) on the right (he did all the playing on the Woody Allen film "Sweet and Lowdown" and taught Sean Penn how to fake jazz guitar playing. He told me he was on the set every day for 3 months).

Directly behind Johnny Frigo (fiddle) was bassist Michael Moore. It was a live session, with an audience and I sat in the front row in the center, perhaps 8 feet back from Johnny Frigo. It will be interesting to see if that arrangement will be preserved in the final DVD-Audio disc, with the extra channels used for ambience and room sound. Knowing the history of Chesky and some of the other sessions I've attended, I expect it will, although it may sound "bigger" than I experienced at the session because I sat up close. I'll let you know when Chesky issues the disk. It was recorded with 96-kHz/24-bit sampling.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#15347 - 07/20/03 01:44 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
danr Offline
buff

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 51
Loc: Oxnard, CA
I personally like both but it depends on the recording more than anything. On some recordings I have DPLII sounds too localized towards the front but in stereo it has a fantastic soundstage. Other recordings sound very wide and deep with DPLII but sound strangled in stereo.

As for mlti-channel recordings I really like then for classical. I have to admit though that there are some really crappy recordings. My Silverline recording of the London Phil sounds like garbage. The performance is great but there is so much background artifacts and high-pitch ringing it drives me crazy when I listen to it at medium to high volumes. And the sound difference between the DD and the DTS tracks are like a smack in the face. The DD track has far more background hiss.

Personally I don't care for studio recordings in multi-channel. Classical is a definite thumbs up if the recording is done properly. To be honest I like the 2ch sound so much that I'm planning on picking up a pair of Outlaw M200's for my fronts using the Marantz as a preamp. I want to use these two by themselves for music. Now that I think about it, if I can afford 3 M200's I'll pick up a trio of them for all front speakers. We'll see what happens.

Daniel

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#15348 - 07/21/03 11:17 AM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4732
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

DPLII isn't really "faked," because on lots of 2-channel recordings, the ambient information is there. It's picked up by the mikes and contained as out of phase info in the 2-channel recording. DPLII extracts the out-of-phase ambient info and redirects it to the side surrounds in an approximation of where the reflections may have originated. DPLII also adds digital delays which would also have been present in the original reflections from the sides, rear and ceiling.



I should have been a bit more specific in how i defined 'faked'.
DPL2 can sound 'faked' for some material.
I know this based on my subwoofer tests. I had turned off my main speakers so i could more easily hear the subwoofers, but in order to know what song was playing at what section, i left my surround speakers on.
The listening tests used various modes including DPL2. Several of the songs i was using to test the subwoofers had surround information reproduced in a very odd way, something i had not previously noticed as the main speakers presented such a louder impact when plugged in. Some songs (not all) caused the surround speakers to cut in and out like someone was playing with the fade knob and volumes would sometimes vary left and right.
This was a very unnatural presentation of the sounds that should be coming from music as the sound fills the room around you as other recordings played the constant 'background' type sounds you would normally expect to hear. It was as if the DPL2 approximations were not extracting constant information from the disc for surround playback or its approximations were not very good based on the source (perhaps a misinterpretation of the out of phase ambient info?).

I will have to try and remember what recordings specifically that the DPL2 mode had created this odd effect but this was awhile ago now.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#15349 - 07/21/03 04:18 PM Re: 2 ch vs Multi-ch music
sushi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 1490
Loc: Dallas, TX
In reply to:

Some songs (not all) caused the surround speakers to cut in and out like someone was playing with the fade knob and volumes would sometimes vary left and right.



Hmm... So far, I have never experienced that kind of artifacts. My materials are mostly classical, though, meaning that completely "artificial" mixing techniques are very rarely used in the recording process.

chess, are you sure that the artifact is not specific to the DSP and its firmware used in your Onkyo receiver?

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