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#160559 - 03/04/07 02:20 AM M22s or M60s?
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Hi, folks,

After many hours of reading, I have been persuaded to try Axioms for my new home theater.

I posted two "drawings" I need you to look at:
http://www.geocities.com/menoclu/

1. viewing/listening will be 60% 5.1 movies and 40% 2-channel music (jazz, funk, instrumental).
2. my room is 13.5W x 16L x 8H for a total of 1728 cubic feet.
3. There is carpet on the floor. As I sit in the home theater, there are two arched-top windows on the right covered with curtains. Front and left wall are clean, even though we may build bookshelves on the front wall, which will come in 1.5' or so. There is a large arched opening on the back wall behind me over my left shoulder as I sit in the home theater.
4. the display will be a 42-47" flat panel.

I want the M60s. Are they too big for the room?
Will I be better off with the M22s?
Given my room layout, where shold I place my surrounds? You won't see them "drawn' since I don't know where I'd put them. For the left surround to be on the back wall, it'd have to be high towards the corner, because of the arched opening.

Thanks a bunch,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160560 - 03/04/07 02:39 AM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Rodney, welcome. My view would be that the M22s, supported by a good sub, would certainly be enough for that size room, but since you really want the M60s, no problem would exist with them. It looks like you'd be sitting about 8' away from them, which should be far enough for the drivers to "blend". You'd be too far from the back wall to put the surrounds(which are side surrounds)there. About 6' up at the front edge of the window farther back, with the other directly opposite on the open wall, should be fine.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#160561 - 03/04/07 06:33 AM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Hi Rodney, and welcome.

Basically, I'm just going to echo what John said by sharing my experience. I had M22s paired with a subwoofer in a similarly sized room, and sat about 8 feet from them. They were certainly adequate, but I felt something was missing in the upper bass/lower midrange area (in all likelihood due to less than optimal speaker placement or incorrect receiver settings on my part, and YMMV). I exchanged the M22s for M60s, and was completely satisfied with the results. They were certainly not "too big for the room."

I think one common error folks make, or are forced to make due to physical limitations of their rooms (my situation ), is not giving their speakers enough space. Speakers should be influenced, as little as possible, by nearby surfaces, because the reflected sound from nearby surfaces can negatively affect the sound of the speakers. If you'll look at BrotherBob's disgustingly gorgeous room below (OK, so I'm very jealous ), you'll see his M80s have a good deal of space around them.



Ideally, bookshelf speakers will not be placed on bookshelves, but rather on stands in an open area. You'll note that the top plate of most speaker stands is actually smaller than the footprint of the speaker itself, thus eliminating any possibility of reflections from the top plate.



I agree completely with John's suggestion for surround placement. The optimal placement for the QS surrounds, IMHO, is slightly to the rear of the seating area, so place the right surround in the space between the windows as close to the rear-most window as you deem aesthetically acceptable, and from 1 to 3 feet above your ears. And, place the left surround directly across the room from it at the same height.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#160562 - 03/04/07 07:56 AM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
I agree with Jack. If you have room for the towers, and the WAF is not an issue, I would suggest them for the 40% of the time your not using them for HT.

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#160563 - 03/04/07 10:27 AM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: littleb]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Guys,

I can't believe I already had three quality replies this morning. Thank you all very much. Many times in forums people reply, but the replies don't eally address the issues/questions.

Well, M60s they will be.

I will take exact measurements as to the width and location of the windows and back opening and post later.

Thanks again,
Rodney

P.S. Indeed, BrotherBob's ht room is wonderful.


Edited by Rodney (03/04/07 10:28 AM)
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160564 - 03/04/07 10:45 AM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13331
Loc: Iowa
You will love your 60's.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#160565 - 03/04/07 12:05 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
bridgman Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5373
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
You *did* get some good answers there, not sure if I can add much. Your room size is fine for either M22s or M60s, although with the M60s you'll probably want to "use more of the room" than you would need with M22s.

To that end, I might suggest you move the seating position a couple of feet closer to the back wall, move the TV and front speakers further into the room as well, and position the surrounds just BEHIND the second window rather than between the windows.

If you are thinking of building bookshelves on the front wall you would probably have to do this anyways. If it were my room my first thought would be to leave walking space between TV and bookshelves, rather than putting the TV on the shelves.

Something like this :

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2873960110048161985HqMfIo

For some reason I can't upload to my normal web hosting area so you're gonna have to click on the link.

Moving the seating position away from the midpoint of the room will also give you more options for subwoofer placement.

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#160566 - 03/04/07 12:23 PM Re: M22s or M60s? (Picture Heavy Link) [Re: JohnK]
ndevagup Offline
regular

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Chicago Burbs
Rodney:
I setup my HT recently in my basement. ( 16 ft X 40 ft). QS8 Surrounds mounted 25 ft away from the fronts (M22ti's) on the side of the wall (about 3 ft behind the couch and a foot above the couch).
The center is VP 150 & sub is the Axiom 350.
In any case have this setup for just over a month, and am very happy. Of course, havent heard the M60's, so wouldnt be able to compare, but havent found the M22's wanting as far as sound. Trying to put pictures on the board, but havent figured that one out yet.
Hope that helps...

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#160567 - 03/04/07 12:27 PM Re: M22s or M60s? (Picture Heavy Link) [Re: ndevagup]
ndevagup Offline
regular

Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Chicago Burbs
Heres trying to get the pictures up..
[image]C:\Nataraju\TEMP\home theatre pictures\DSCN0387.jpg[/image]
[image]C:\Nataraju\TEMP\home theatre pictures\DSCN0388.jpg[/image]
[image]C:\Nataraju\TEMP\home theatre pictures\DSCN0389.jpg[/image]

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#160568 - 03/04/07 12:34 PM Re: M22s or M60s? (Picture Heavy Link) [Re: ndevagup]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Raj, to post your pictures you need to use a free service like photobucket.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#160569 - 03/04/07 01:05 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: bridgman]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

To that end, I might suggest you move the seating position a couple of feet closer to the back wall, move the TV and front speakers further into the room as well, and position the surrounds just BEHIND the second window rather than between the windows.



Assuming he has the leeway (and permission ) to do this, that's a great suggestion, John. May I also say, John, that it's very good to have you back on the forum. Your contributions are substantial.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#160570 - 03/04/07 02:47 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Ajax]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Wow! Great suggestions. Thank you all so much.

Bridgman, thanks for taking the time to even illustrate it.

Amazing how nobody knows me, but so many are putting in their time to help me.

Wife wants bookshelves. I couldn't care less for shelves, but after they are up, MY speakers go where I want them. So the advice to move the watching position and surrounds backwards will be heeded.

Axiom forum folk are awesome! Let's hope the Axiom speakers will be awesome.

Regards,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160571 - 03/04/07 03:49 PM Re: M22s or M60s? (Picture Heavy Link) [Re: ndevagup]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13331
Loc: Iowa
Raj,

First of all, you need to use the "img" tag. Secondly, we have no way to view your c: drive. As homedad stated, you need to upload your pictures to a service we would have access to, unless you have a website.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#160572 - 03/04/07 03:53 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10873
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

Amazing how nobody knows me, but so many are putting in their time to help me.





They'll be asking you to make the next beer run!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#160573 - 03/04/07 05:56 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
Krich Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 93
Loc: Duvall, WA
Quote:

Amazing how nobody knows me, but so many are putting in their time to help me.





I agree. I just ordered a set of speakers a week or so ago and was so excited that I posted what amounts to several "fanboy" messages on the forums. The guys razzed me a bit about it, but I don't mind. It was the quality of the Axiom speakers that put them on the short list. It was the community that sealed the deal. Much, much different from the "Blade Runner-esque" feel of those other, much larger, AV forums.
_________________________
Ken. VaSSallo Series M60v2, VP100v2, QS8v2 SVS SB12-Plus

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#160574 - 03/05/07 11:44 AM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Quote:

Axiom forum folk are awesome! Let's hope the Axiom speakers will be awesome.




I know they will

Welcome Rodney!
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#160575 - 03/10/07 08:31 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: dllewel]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
OK, folks,

I am back after long discussions with you know whom and more measuring.

She wants "built-in" bookshelves. Long story short, my 16' long room became more like 14'. We have to put my components inside the bookshelves, and the amp I want is 19" deep. So she's building a (dry)wall 2' in front of the old wall, and "cutting" the (dry)wall for the bookshelves, flat panel AND fireplace! How I'm gonna hang the flat panel on drywall remains to be determined.

So my question is: how far can I sit from the M60s for good sound? From what I read, I don't want them inside the bookshelves, and I also want some room around them. If I place them 1' in front of the bookshelves and add their 15" depth, the front grill is now at 11.75' from the back wall...

What do I do? My budget allows for the M60s, I want the M60s, but now that my room has gotten smaller, should I go with the M22s?

Please provide ideas, corrections on my thinking (like "who says you can't ....").

Also, is it ok for the display to be a foot or two behind the fronts? From the image on the main axiom.com page, I would think yes.

The new measurements: on the right wall with the 2 windows: from the back wall to the back window: 28". Both windows are 53" in width. Between windows: 32". Second window to front wall as it is right now: 28".

Thank you lots,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160576 - 03/10/07 09:12 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
Either type of speaker would be great.

I think the M22s with stands, will have about the same "footprint" as M60s, and likely similar placement requirements..........so, it seems to me...M60s.

I have been back from my M60s: 7 1/2' to 13'..both were/are fine..(just a little toe-in adjustment).
_________________________
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)

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#160577 - 03/10/07 10:48 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13331
Loc: Iowa
Since space is an issue, have you considered the Architecture series, like the W22's. W150, etc. Not sure if this would be an option as it sounds your in the middle of construction.

I don't think you would have to have the m60's a foot from the wall, many people have great success in the 4-6" range. You can always slightly toe in the 60's towards the listening position.

The 22's are great also, especially when matched with a sub.

Randy
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#160578 - 03/15/07 02:10 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: SirQuack]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Thanks, guys.

I am trying to decide whether or not to buy the 350 subwoofer with the package for $678. Given my room size (1728 SqFt with a big opening on back wall), would I be able to get away with the 175 and still have good bass for action movies?

Or how about SVS and HSU?

Thank you,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160579 - 03/15/07 02:15 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
HSU seems to have the best values in the $600 and under range. I am sure Wid will be here to close the deal shortly
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#160580 - 03/15/07 02:34 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

You could certainly save money and not suffer any performance with going with another choice in subs.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#160581 - 03/15/07 03:51 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Wid]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Wid and all,

I talked to a speaker manufacturer and the guy said you'll need a big sub because the big opening in the back. We may put a thick curtain over it, but I don't think we'll make a door for it... Is there really no hope for good bass unless I buy something big and expensive? What would you do?

Thank you,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160582 - 03/15/07 04:00 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I don't know what you have as a budget but the Hsu VTF 2.3 is not all that much and would work quite well in your size room.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#160583 - 03/15/07 04:15 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Wid]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Wid,

Do yo mean the HSU VTF-2 MK 3?

Thanks,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160584 - 03/15/07 04:29 PM Re: M22s or M60s? [Re: Rodney]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

That's the one.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#160585 - 03/15/07 10:13 PM QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with opening? [Re: Wid]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Hi, all,

Yes, still asking questions.

Is the fact that the QS8s are "quadpolar" bad for a room like mine with an opening on the back wall? A salesman trying to sell me his speakers said "you want the surrounds to be directed at your listening position. Bipolar is not the way to go..."

Thanks,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

Top
#160586 - 03/15/07 10:55 PM Re: QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with open [Re: Rodney]
Lorenzo1000 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Winterpeg
Quote:

Hi, all,

Yes, still asking questions.

Is the fact that the QS8s are "quadpolar" bad for a room like mine with an opening on the back wall? A salesman trying to sell me his speakers said "you want the surrounds to be directed at your listening position. Bipolar is not the way to go..."

Thanks,
Rodney




How else is he going to sell you any speakers?
_________________________
2xM80 VP180 2xQS8 2xM3 HSU STF3 LG 60PS11 Denon 3808 ATI 1506 LCR 2xATI 1502 Oppo BDP-83

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#160587 - 03/16/07 01:36 AM Re: QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with opening? [Re: Rodney]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Get the QS's, my room is open at the end and it still sounds great, better in fact than the directionals I had before.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#160588 - 03/16/07 12:45 PM Re: QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with open [Re: Rodney]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Hi, all,

Yes, still asking questions.

Is the fact that the QS8s are "quadpolar" bad for a room like mine with an opening on the back wall? A salesman trying to sell me his speakers said "you want the surrounds to be directed at your listening position. Bipolar is not the way to go..."

Thanks,
Rodney




Good thing the Q's are Quadpolar not bipolar...2 drivers firing up and down, and 1 tweeter toward your listening position will give a far more emersive experience than direct radiating. Even if you have 1 tweeter firing into an open room.

-Hutz
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#160589 - 03/16/07 01:54 PM Re: QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with open [Re: Hutzal]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Thank you guys. QS8s it is.

Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

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#160590 - 03/17/07 12:05 PM Re: QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with open [Re: Rodney]
Rodney Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 72
Loc: TN
Thanks to all.

I placed an order for two M22s, a VP150 and 2 QS8s.

Regards,
Rodney
_________________________
Rodney

Denon AVR-3312ci
Mains: M22 v2
Center: VP150 v2
Surrounds: QS8s v2
Sub: HSU VTF-2 MK3

Top
#160591 - 03/17/07 04:23 PM Re: QS8 quadpolars: is that bad for room with open [Re: Rodney]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Congrats on the speakers, have you decided on a sub?

Nevermind I looked at your other thread. Your going to love the sub


Edited by wid (03/17/07 04:29 PM)
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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