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#165088 - 04/13/07 08:11 AM
Release date of the A1400-8
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devotee
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Cana...
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what is the release date for the amp and $$$$ ?
anybody know
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Pioneer sc-1525
M80 HG Cherry
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#165090 - 04/17/07 12:02 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Hutzal]
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buff
Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 50
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Just so you do not get too anxious about the A1400-8.......there will be an announcement in the May Owner's Club e-mail with the release date, price details and a special pre-order offer.
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Axiom Audio
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#165091 - 04/17/07 04:46 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Andrea]
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devotee
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Cana...
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How do you get added to the owners club email list ?
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Pioneer sc-1525
M80 HG Cherry
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#165093 - 04/17/07 06:49 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: PorterPlex]
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devotee
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Cana...
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tried it came up nothing
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Pioneer sc-1525
M80 HG Cherry
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#165101 - 05/17/07 08:51 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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connoisseur
Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
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The Boss would have to be pretty kind, Audioholics reported the amp to be in the $3500.00 to $4000.00 dollar price range.
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A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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#165102 - 05/17/07 08:57 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: HomeDad]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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I have wondered why Axioms price point has been set so high when Alan has said repeatedly that in double blind test he couldn't hear a difference in various amps. Seeing how all amps sound the same it seems to be a waste of money. How is the nay Sayers going to justify recommending such a high price amp?
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Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165103 - 05/17/07 09:33 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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aficionado
Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 673
Loc: South Florida
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Because what sets this amp apart from conventional designs is its efficiency of power delivery to 8 channels (or any number of channels up to 8). The higher price it may have would mostly likely be due to the technology involved to achieve that efficiency, not because of any claims (that I've read to date) of superior sound quality. (IMO, of course  )
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Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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#165105 - 05/17/07 09:44 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Spoiler]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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But the question still remains, how will it do in double blind listening test. No matter how the power is achieved it is about the sound..............no?
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Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165106 - 05/17/07 09:51 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: chesseroo]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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Chess, I know that a good portion of the price is to recover some of the R&D money, that's no secret. I bring this point up mainly because of the amount of times I have read that all amps sound the same if they have been of proper design. Like the post you just made in another thread. How can a person justify recommending this 4K amp if this is what they believe to be true?
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Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165109 - 05/18/07 11:21 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3127
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
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Quote:
I have wondered why Axioms price point has been set so high when Alan has said repeatedly that in double blind test he couldn't hear a difference in various amps. Seeing how all amps sound the same it seems to be a waste of money. How is the nay Sayers going to justify recommending such a high price amp?
Hi Wid and all,
I must qualify my statement about "all amplifiers sounding the same" (as I always do) by saying the following: In the case of transistor amplifiers, a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own--provided that it has smooth, flat frequency response, low distortion, and is not driven into clipping. It's surprisingly easy to drive solid-state moderately-powered (100 watts per channel or less into 8 ohms) amplifiers into clipping with musical material that you would otherwise not expect to demand all that much power output.
At the recent Home Theater & Hi-Fi show in New York, I ran into an old friend, Peter Aczel, the founder, editor and publisher of The Audio Critic ( www.theaudiocritic.com ) which I unhesitatingly recommend to everyone interested in truth about sound reproduction and electronics, plus highly entertaining and provocative commentary on the delusional beliefs of high-end tweaks.
Like me, Peter Aczel came from a high-end belief system and discovered, through many years of double-blind testing and using A/B and A/B/X switching comparators, that smoke and mirrors, snake oil and hokum are awfully prevalent in high-end circles, the promotion of the products, and the magazines that cater to the tweako industry.
Here is how Peter Aczel states it: "It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped." Amen.
I have not A/B'd the Axiom power amplifier so far, but I can tell you that its design goals were to develop a highly efficient no-compromise extremely powerful amplifier capable of driving multiple lower-impedance loads without overheating, shut-down, individual channel failures and the like, and to do so without the owner ever worrying that the amp might be clipping or running out of dynamic headroom. To do so costs plenty. There are no short cuts.
If amplifiers are driven into clipping or near-clipping as the "knee" of the distortion curve begins to rapidly rise, then of course they will sound different, compared to one that has tons of clean power and dynamic headroom. (More on solid-state amplifiers and tubes in the upcoming newsletter.)
Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert
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#165111 - 05/18/07 01:07 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: michael_d]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17377
Loc: NoVA
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Boundary conditions, my friend... a useful strawman, but hardly proof of anything.
The next time I see a Yamaha, Onkyo, Harman/Kardon, or Denon at a Walmart will be the first (yes, I did a search on their site). And those are the brands commonly recommended around here, not Emerson. I think the bit you're missing is "of a decent quality" and "at non-clipping/shutdown levels." Where those clipping levels are, of course, is where the money comes in.
My M80s run just fine at 75 wpc on an H/K--but I don't use them at the volume levels you do. Clearly, my H/K cannot provide the volumes to Randy or you, so you have an external amp. If you want to call clipping at 105dB a sound quality issue, feel free.
Edited by kcarlile (05/18/07 01:13 PM)
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#165113 - 05/18/07 04:36 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: michael_d]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3127
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
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Quote:
Quote:
Here is how Peter Aczel states it: "It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped." Amen.
Regards,
So Alan, are these characteristics normally found in low end receivers typically found sitting on the shelf at Wal-Mart?
I don't know, since, as an audio-video hi-fi magazine editor for many years, I never reviewed or bench-tested really "low-end" electronics. I'd have to get hold of one that we'd agree was "low end" (Chess is correct: How do you define that? By price alone? Not a good indicator. .), run power bandwidth, frequency response curves, a THD + Noise measurement at various impedances and power levels, and put a spectrum analyzer on it while measuring Intermodulation Distortion (IM).
If the low-end receiver passed all those tests--some of which are quite rigorous, in particular the IM test--with good results, then if you set it up opposite a different AV receiver (assume a more costly model if you like), equalized the SPL output to within a 1/4 dB or less, made sure you didn't drive either amplifier into clipping by monitoring the audio waveform with an oscilloscope, and put it on an AB comparator concealing the price, brand and size of each product, then yes, there would be no difference in sound quality provided both units meet the aforementioned criteria.
It would be an interesting test. Clearly there are all kinds of electronic compromises made in the design of some electronics to meet very low price requirements--cheap IC output sections for example--but such shortcomings would normally show up in the lab bench tests as high distortion of one type or the other. Based on previous studies of the audibility of distortion (and on my own experience), and the measured distortion levels, I might be able to predict whether they would be audible with music or soundtracks. If, for example, there were measured levels of THD or IM distortion that were 40 dB down--that's equivalent to 1% distortion--or higher, then those might well be audible in an A/B comparison.
Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert
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#165114 - 05/18/07 06:56 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: alan]
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connoisseur
Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3735
Loc: Up yonder
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Uhhhh....OK. Way over my head buddy, but I believe you at any rate.
I think I got my point across though. IE: don't use generalized statements like saying all modern receivers will have equal sonic characteristics as all high end processors/amps. That's not so much for this thread, but that other thread...
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"......The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials." ~ Lin Yutang
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#165116 - 05/18/07 10:42 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
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Quote:
When it is said that at a comfortable listening levels you only use a watt or two I have never believed it to be true...
I've certainly said something along the lines of a watt or two. By that however I mean average and not transient levels. For transients, I need at least 8 to 24 times more.
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#165117 - 05/18/07 10:51 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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That's fine if that is what you say you use. When I was powering my 80s with an old Kenwood M2A amp its meters read a lot more than a watt or two.
_________________________
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165118 - 05/18/07 11:21 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 15984
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
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The main point people should take from the amp discussions is that power is the most important variable. Buying a McIntosh or a Krell won't give you a richer sound or a wider soundstage than a Denon or H/K unless your speakers, room, and listening habits conspire to exceed the capabilities of these less expensive receivers.
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-- Let me tell you a story about why I believe anecdotal evidence. --
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#165120 - 05/18/07 11:55 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: pmbuko]
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axiomite
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 9981
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Yes, and relevant to Alan's comment about Mr. Aczel and the questions about the "sound" of an amplifier is the brief article he wrote in last month's Audio Critic, "Electronic Signal Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" .
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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#165122 - 05/19/07 09:21 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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President
aficionado
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 665
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Over the years I have always found the sound differences between amplifiers to be subtle when compared to the differences found in speakers. Hence if budget is a concern you are probably better to cut a little deeper on the amp side. The main reason for this is that amplifiers (with the exception of some bizarre designs out there) do not colour the tonal balance of the performance nor have any bearing on the off axis response. This does not mean that all amplifiers sound the same but that different factors come into play. Without question the big one is the amount of power available to play dynamic peaks. Wid was commenting earlier about the statement that at normal listening levels you do not need more than a watt or two and I agree with him that this statement is, in practical terms, false; though granted in mathematical terms under certain conditions it can be proved true. The power required to bring home a great performance can get pretty large if you want even just moderate listening levels in a large space without any clipping in the dynamics. The reality is that when most people want to crank up their system they rarely achieve the volume level they truly want; instead they go to the level of clipping distortion in the dynamics that they can put up with (which sounds painfully harsh and loud even if it isn’t).
So, in the past at least, if you wanted to achieve loud and clean the reality was you were faced with a big spend on the amp side to achieve this. A stack of mono blocks was really the only solution and this came at enormous cost. In my case I had over 2 times the money invested in the amplifiers compared to the speakers. Central to the design goals of the A1400 series amps was to be able to solve this problem for a fraction of the cost. I have been living with one of the 2 prototypes of our new amp (JC has the other one) for a few months now and it far exceeds the quality of this stack of mono blocks and does it for $3,850. Now I have more power and better sound for an investment in the amplification less than half the cost of the speakers.
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Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
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#165123 - 05/19/07 12:55 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ian]
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devotee
Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 457
Loc: Sherbrooke, QC, Canada
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I am one of the very few privileged ones to have extensively listened to the new A1400-8 at will. And I am reporting my impressions and findings. First of all, the sample which I audition is very close to the final version except for the casing, output jacks, power cord receptacle location and some internal wiring. The few minor remaining modifications to bring it to its final version will not affect negatively its performance; if it was possible, chances are it would improve it. During several days, I auditioned the A1400-8 several days in stereo mode only and I still do it regularly. In stereo mode, it is powering a pair of Axiom M80v2s. For comparison, I am using a Mark Levinson Dual Monaural Power Amplifier No 23.5 model. It is rated at 400 watts minimum per channel both channels driven simultaneously with not more than 0.2% THD and it weights 105 pounds. It has been my pride and my joy for many years. You can read reviews from different owners at http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/mark-levinson/PRD_115909_1583crx.aspx. As you will read; it is a very good amplifier and even when being bought used is still quite expensive. I bought mine new, may years ago. My hope was that the new Axiom A1400-8 amplifier would not be put to shame by a reference amplifier model from one of the best amplifier designer and builder of the audio industry. If it could almost be as good and even rival it in some aspects; it would be quite an accomplishment. Fingers crossed, I turned on the music and . . . I was floored. I could not believe my own ears. Just within a few seconds I discovered and experienced a new musical dimension ! How could my Mark Levinson Dual Monaural Power Amplifier No 23.5 amplifier which is unanimously and universally praised for its power, fantastic bass control, frequency extension, transparency, dynamics, speed, naturalness, timbre and tonal balance be bettered on each and everyone of these aspects ? And for most of them it is not even close: it is obvious and it does not take hours of listening. I had many visitors who expressed the same feeling. Here are a few brief examples of how it translates in a real world situation: Bass: Each of my Axiom M80v2 is paired with an EP500v2 subwoofer, for my evaluation I had turned the subwoofers off. When I replaced the ML for the Axiom A1400-8 in my setup I had to walk to the both subwoofers to be sure that they were off because of the additional tight and solid bass I was feeling. Voices: I have discovered nuances, intonations and subtleties in the voice of signers which I have listened time over time. It applies to both male and female singers from Kenny Rodgers to Céline Dion, from Willie Nelson to Norah Jones, from Pavarotti to Madeleine Peyroux. I still have goose bumps thinking about it. The voices are more life like. Details, clarity and extension: I hear more and more and discover new things. Someone might think that it would become more clinical and analytical far from it. It always stays highly musical, adding perspective and rendering the contour of different instruments and voices precisely. You easily follow the individual voices and instruments. Another benefit is it removes haze or layers of veils bringing you closer to the artist. Timbre, naturalness, tonal balance: Every instrument and voice sound as they should; again making it easier to distinguish them and adding life. An indispensable quality for me, is ability to convey emotion and the Axiom A1400-8 surely does as I could witness listening to Angele Dubeau’s violin or Dave Brubeck “Take five”; chills down my spine and raised hair. How all this reflects when watching movies ? What about a significant increase in intelligibility and subtleties from the center speaker (dual VP150v2) and deeper immersion feeling from the surround speakers ( 4 – QS8v2). From the main speakers (M80v2) and all speakers a net gain in details, dynamics and speed. Owners of Axiom M80 have no idea how much better their audio speakers can sound when driven by an Axiom A1400-8 amplifier. I personally discovered a new dimension to music listening. Owners of Axiom Epic Home Theatre Ensemble will be adding value, satisfaction and enjoyment to their DVD collection. On another note, based on my last April expedition to Montréal’s Festival du Son et de l’Image, manufacturers of megabucks amplifier are better to get ready for a rude awaking once the Axiom A1400-8 will hit the market and the reviews will be published. I really can’t comprehend how and why someone would buy a pair of Tenor mono-block tube amps at $90,000.00 CAD after listening to the Axiom A1400-8. Finally, I would like to give you an advice and a warning. Advice: In a few months, the Axiom A1400-8 will be available. You will rapidly see proud owners inviting fellow audiophiles on “Auditioning Axioms in your area”. Accept the invitation even if you have to drive several hundred miles; it is well worth it. Warning: Once you have listened to the Axiom A1400-8, you will never be satisfied with anything else.
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#165124 - 05/19/07 01:02 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Jc]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13147
Loc: Iowa
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Thanks JC, It will be interesting to hear from those who say all amps sound the same. I can tell you that I easily hear a difference when comparing my Denon 2805 to the amps I've tested to this point. Not all internal guts are created equally, no matter what some paper article says. I should have my Odyssey Mono's early next week per Klaus.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana
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#165125 - 05/19/07 01:14 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ian]
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connoisseur
Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3735
Loc: Up yonder
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Ian, Is that $3850 Canadian or US?? And where's the Pre/Pro to go with it?? 
_________________________
"......The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials." ~ Lin Yutang
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#165127 - 05/19/07 01:30 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ajax]
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aficionado
Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 673
Loc: South Florida
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Ya beat me to it Ajax... if this amp somehow breaks the mold and comes out favorably in double blind testing, I'll one of the first to convert and click that 'Buy' button.
_________________________
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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#165128 - 05/19/07 02:39 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ian]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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Thanks for the reply Ian. Your views seem to fall in line with what I believe.
_________________________
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165132 - 05/19/07 08:22 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: LT61]
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veteran
Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 138
Loc: Hanover, New Hampshire
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Quote:
I predict even more back-pedaling than there's been, to follow
????
Alan Lofft's statements in this thread seem to me to be the authoritative word, and that conforms to what I understand to be the "all amps sound the same" story. There are various over-simplified and/or exagerrated strawman versions of that floating around (such as, "all amps sound the same") that no one seriously believes that have been refuted anyway, but that's clarification, not back-pedaling.
I'll take Axiom's own word on this issue myself. Seems a good place to start.
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#165133 - 05/19/07 11:03 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: zhimbo]
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axiomite
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 9981
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Regardless of whether the person making a statement about alleged sound qualities of an electronic component is a friend or respected person, if it resulted from casual listening it can't be given much weight in comparison to well-established audio principles and negative blind testing results. Dr. Toole, in a talk to a AES meeting a few years ago on double-blind testing, emphasized the point with a little intentional hyperbole by stating "If you can see what you're listening to, you can't hear it!". The principle stated, for example by Mr. Aczel in the article linked above, hasn't been repealed. There are no miracles in audio.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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#165135 - 05/20/07 12:44 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: JohnK]
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Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making
Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 10801
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
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I'm finally reading through issues of The Audio Critic. It's pretty cool stuff, even if most of it is beyond my feeble grasp of the hobby. I'd like to hear the speakers they consider the current epitome of accurate reproduction. Has anyone rented Honeymoon Cottage? It seems like it would be fun to check out.
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#165138 - 05/20/07 11:22 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: chesseroo]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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Just for my own curiosity how many that say all amps sound the same and double blind listening test are the proof of this have actually done or sat in on these tests of amps.
I for one have not.
_________________________
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165139 - 05/20/07 11:28 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13147
Loc: Iowa
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Good point Rick, and one I've been wanting to ask as well. Seems many like to reference articles and base everything on math, etc., but have they actually been involved in real world test themselves.
I'm looking at a Russound AB-2 switcher so I can jump back/forth between my Denon and Amps. I plan to invite some friends over for some tests. I'm not even going to tell them what they are testing.
Randy
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana
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#165141 - 05/20/07 01:29 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: PorterPlex]
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connoisseur
Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4563
Loc: western canada
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Quote:
Good point Rick, and one I've been wanting to ask as well. Seems many like to reference articles and base everything on math, etc., but have they actually been involved in real world test themselves.
I'm looking at a Russound AB-2 switcher so I can jump back/forth between my Denon and Amps. I plan to invite some friends over for some tests. I'm not even going to tell them what they are testing.
Been there, done that, a fair bit lads.
You would have to search back through many of my past posts (one example here) to see my comments on A/B tests we did. Most of these were single blind tests using a near instantaneous switcher with equalized SPL. I used at least one friend and/or wife and sometimes a fourth (and a TRUE believer audiophile until he built himself a switcher, the very one we used).
Off hand i've compared 4 AVRs (from $100 or less to $1800 retail), 6-8 SS amps (varying from $1200 retail to $4000 including Coda, Anthem, Parasound, Robertson) and at least 2 tube amps (one a relic, one 1980s newer) in the past 3-4 years. I've also compared about 5 or 6 different speaker sets including Tannoys, Monitor Audios, Axioms, KEF, Boston Acoustics and some generic speakers.
Since my friend built his switcher he has also tested several various amps at his house along with an electronic guru friend of his. These boys collect vintage electronics and have a very impressive set of equipment, including a tube amp which recently sold on ebay for over 3k and Krell components. This electronics guru fellow in particular owned an electronics repair store (primarily audio) for 20 years and has fixed more speaker surrounds, static controls, blown caps, tube amps than you could shake a stick at. He has 2 'subwoofers' in his basements, home made that house 2-30 inch drivers!! He is one who has also long believed in the 'difference of amps' hypothesis, UNTIL these boys started using their switcher. As i understand it, their general opinions have dramatically changed from "there are definite differences" to more of an "IF there are differences, they are subtle and alot less than originally heard" point of view.
I'm not out to change one's hardcore belief structure but even that change of opinion is one huge jump for these two long time stereophiles. I didn't do any direct persuasion to put them on that course but my friend also happens to be of a scientific background and after enough conversations about wanting to hear comparisons equally, leveled and blind, he built the switcher for himself, mostly out of curiousity. Needless to say he is a bit saddened that his amp collection does not look as fun and shiny as it used to now that he's honestly settled in his brain with conclusive, self-experienced objective evidence (the best kind) that they sound identical. He told me some time ago that he's decided to sell one of them since there is no point keeping both anymore. He used to use one for some certain type of music (because it was supposedly softer sounding) and the other amp for whatever other type of music he enjoyed.
Never assume that people have not tried A/B testing themselves. Many may not take the lengthy time to post all the details involved in the process. I think many here know of craigsub and his testing with subwoofers and he is certainly one person who has a strong, well thought out methodology (public posted out on the forums for scrutinizing) to reproduce great results in this regard. He could just as easily setup tests for amps, if he hasn't already done so in the past (i imagine he has, Ajax may know).
It is not that hard to setup if you have one key piece: a switcher with gain controls or a similar third equipment piece for gain control. I also own a Russound unit which i'm planning on modifying with a non-stepped potentiometer and banana jacks.
I have to admit that the results of these blind tests can take some of the joy out of wanting to buy another or new piece of equipment. I like changing the aesthetics around or contemplating the idea that there is always a better sounding amp out there for my sweet home stereo system; something to make it that much better. However, to me, doing the A/B testing is as enormously fun as those who like to buy a new piece of equipment, stand in front of it and wow about much better (or worse) it sounds compared subjectively to their previous unit.
I just prefer to do the tests from a more objective perspective possibly because i'm a frugal buyer. (Aren't all Axiom folks supposed to be frugal buyers?  )
- Is that 2k amp really worth $500 more than just a $1500 AVR?
- Is there really a difference in sound?
- How can i equalize the factors to make it an objective conclusion so i can decide whether i want to pay that extra $500 for more than bragging rights and pretty lights?
The answer? A/B blind testingDon't knock it until you try it. I've had many a fun afternoon doing auditioning tests with this stuff. Wires running everywhere, volume up, volume down, switching components, telling the dogs to go lay down, grabbing a beer, swapping chairs. Oh ya, tons of fun. 
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth. Research begets reality."
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#165143 - 05/20/07 07:43 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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axiomite
Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6691
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
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I can't say I was aware of your tests Mojo. I was well aware of the extensive tests Chess had performed though. If you can point me to your post I would be more than willing to give it a read.
_________________________
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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#165144 - 05/20/07 09:30 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: pmbuko]
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axiomite
Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
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>>I hear the sound of the freewheel clicking, but the "all amps sound the same" crew seems to be going downhill and picking up speed. I know this is fun to watch, but are we maybe missing the point here ? The "all amplifiers sound the same" statements are normally made when someone asks whether a Denon or Yamaha AVR will be a better match for their Axiom speakers. Our response, which I think is fair, is that it's generally going to be very difficult to hear a difference between two amplifiers of similar power and similar design. I have always believed that a big honkin' high quality power amp is going to sound better than a good moderately powered amp/receiver, but the difference is relatively subtle compared to spending the same $$ on speakers and there is still lack of agreement on what really makes the better amp sound better. It may really be placebo effect, I don't know -- my personal theory is that watching the analog power meters excites different areas of the brain and improves the overall listening experience Double-blind speaker testing is relatively easy to do since the switching is easy. Double-blind electronics testing is harder and -- I hate to say it -- that is probably the real reason we're still arguing about this after 50+ years of audiophiles have had their say. I am still a bit suspicious of digital amplifiers in general, for no good reason other than a healthy respect for what has been proven to work. Having said that, I also have confidence that if anyone comes up with a breakthrough amplifier there's a decent chance that Ian and Tom will be the ones who do it.
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#165145 - 05/20/07 09:42 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: chesseroo]
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aficionado
Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 832
Loc: Illinois.
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Quote:
As i understand it, their general opinions have dramatically changed from "there are definite differences" to more of an "IF there are differences, they are subtle and alot less than originally heard" point of view.
When people have posted, their personal experiences with Audio and/or various Audio equipment.....and have made claims of "improved sound", (whether it was high end Amps, CD players, Tubes vs. Transistors, Analog vs. Digital, etc.) they usually sound sincere, and credible.....just wanting to share their "find".
The posts I have seen here over the years, have often said just that...."subtle improvements", or a "more pleasing sound" etc.
I don't recall any wild, or exaggerative posts claiming otherwise.
Isn't this just nit-picking?
I have come to this conclusion:
"There are no absolutes in audio"
_________________________
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"
(Larryism)
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#165147 - 05/20/07 10:25 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: bridgman]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 15984
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
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John, about the freewheeling post -- I was just having a little fun. My current opinion about amps is that as long as it has enough juice to cleanly drive your equipment to the levels you desire, then you'll be hard pressed to hear any difference in a controlled situation such as a blind listening test. Remove the blind, and I am certain most people will hear a difference between a Mark Levinson amp and anything else not looking half as sexy.
_________________________
-- Let me tell you a story about why I believe anecdotal evidence. --
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#165148 - 05/20/07 10:53 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Wid]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
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Quote:
I can't say I was aware of your tests Mojo. I was well aware of the extensive tests Chess had performed though. If you can point me to your post I would be more than willing to give it a read.
Here is a repeat of my "blind testing" post from two days ago.
Some of you will like me for this and others will hate me but in the interest of advancing knowledge on this subject I have decided to post this.
I decided to blind test my wife's plastic, dinky Sony boombox with my Denon. Here are the specs:
Sony CFD-Z130: 2.3W + 2.3W into 3.2 Ohms at 10% harmonic distortion.
Denon AVR-2105: 90W + 90W into 8 Ohms at 0.08% THD from 20 Hz to 20 Khz; 125W + 125W into 4 Ohms at 0.7% THD at 1 KHz; dynamic power of 170W/channel into 4 Ohms.
For the Denon, I used my Sony with optical out as the CD source. The boombox has its own CD player.
I put on some Poncho Sanchez and adjusted the gains for 75 dB SPL. By the way, 75 dB in my room requires less than a watt per side. After I had everything adjusted I called in my wife, son and daughter and let them listen to the Denon for 2 minutes and the Sony for two minutes. Then I sent them back out and covered everything up. To make a long story short, we tested 12 times for a minute each time and I had them write down their answers each time. The test was painful as I had to keep changing the leads. Here is the raw data. The first field indicates the amp under test and the last three fields the selections they made:
1. S, D, D, S
2. S, S, D, S
3. S, D, S, S
4. D, D, D, S
5. D, D, S, D
6. D, D, D, S
7. D, S, S, S
8. S, S, S, D
9. S, S, S, S
10. S, D, S, S
11. D, S, D, D
12. D, S, S, D
Out of 36 possible trials, 21 turned up the correct response. That's not much different than guessing heads or tails.
I haven't revealed the results to my wife because if I do, she won't authorize an A1400-8  .
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#165149 - 05/20/07 11:00 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: pmbuko]
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axiomite
Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
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Understood. Having fun or not, I thought your comment was a pretty good summary of where the thread was heading so I figured that was a good post to respond to. I agree completely with your opinion -- I'm just less convinced than some that a typical AVR has enough juice to cleanly drive our equipment to the levels we desire. I realize this puts me right in the demographic crosshairs for an amplifier I can't afford 
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#165151 - 05/21/07 10:49 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: pmbuko]
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connoisseur
Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3735
Loc: Up yonder
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I still want to know when the Pre/Pro is coming out. That A1400 is going to look silly on my rack with a different brand processor, although the new Denon is looking promising – other than the price.
Common Ian, don’t leave us hanging…..
_________________________
"......The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials." ~ Lin Yutang
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#165152 - 05/21/07 12:12 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: michael_d]
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President
aficionado
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 665
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mdrew,
The matching Pre/Pro is still a ways out there though we have started on it. I think we are looking at mid 2008 right now. If you go with black the A1400-8 should disappear into that rack (it is only 4" tall).
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
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#165157 - 07/03/07 12:55 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: CV]
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connoisseur
Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3735
Loc: Up yonder
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Ian/Amie/Alan,
Are there any specs on this amp to share yet? If not, will there be before the end of pre-order date?
_________________________
"......The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of nonessentials." ~ Lin Yutang
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#165158 - 07/04/07 07:06 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: michael_d]
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President
aficionado
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 665
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mdrew,
There will be lots of specs coming out prior to the pre-order date. We are in the middle of it right now.
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
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#165162 - 07/06/07 07:13 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ian]
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veteran
Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 118
Loc: Ont, Canada
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Thanks Ian .. That will keep the number crunchers happy .. for a while ... I knew I should have got spy pics or something when i was there last week .. I just never realized there was a market for inside info on this .. Avdude..
_________________________
Pio VSX1018,LPA-1,M60,M3,Qs8,Vp150,HSU VTF3,,Pio 5080,PS3..
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#165163 - 07/06/07 07:42 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ian]
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connoisseur
Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4563
Loc: western canada
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Excellent charts. Everyone loves charts. Quote:
Unfortunately making them up would put us in with a pretty big crowd.
Hey, is that dig at the competitors?
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth. Research begets reality."
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#165165 - 07/07/07 11:00 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ian]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
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Ian, Kudos to all of you at Axiom. All specs are impressive so far but I am particularly impressed with the noise floor and the frequency response. It looks like the 3dB point is out in the boonies at around 50KHz. When available, can you post the graphs for 2, 8 and 16 Ohms so that we can see how well the feedback network is designed ? Let us also marvel at the phase response. And you've managed a really short dead time (maybe 10 nsec or less) with virtually seamless switching to achieve such excellent THD. I bet there will be a big party at Axiom when you've finally finished this project.
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#165166 - 07/12/07 02:09 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3127
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
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Hi Mojo and all,
We've got a new spec to post on the A1400-8 amplifier from Axiom's R&D engineer, Tom Cumberland. The spec is called "DC Offset," which many manufacturers simply won't post on their amplifiers because the DC offset may be excessive.
For the Axiom A1400-8, the DC offset is truly tiny, approximately 0.0001 volt--that's one-ten-thousandth of a volt, a fraction of the value that many conventional amplifiers often exhibit.
What's DC offset? It's really interesting. The power supply of any amplifier has to deliver a positive voltage and a negative voltage from the power-supply rails, but often the voltage is offset a bit to one side or the other--too much negative voltage or too much positive voltage. In theory, the power supply should deliver equal amounts of positive and negative voltages; in reality, there may be more negative (or positive voltage) from the supply rails. When this happens, and you have your speakers connected but there is no audio signal, the offset voltage will force the driver's voice coil either slightly outwards or inwards, away from the center of the magnetic flux from the speaker magnet. When this DC offset goes uncorrected, this means that the excursion of the voice coil will be non-linear. When high-amplitude audio signals come along, this may mean the voice coil is forced out of the magnetic flux because it's already offset from the excessive amounts of DC offset, so the motion of the voice coil and diaphragm becomes very non-linear.
The great thing about the Axiom A1400-8 is that the DC offset is 1) extremely low in value (other amps may exhibit ten to 20 times as much DC offset as the A1400-8) and 2) the A1400-8's DC offset is dynamically self-correcting so that no matter what the value of the incoming audio signals, the DC offset will be minimized to an insignificant value at all times, thus assuring the linear motion of all the drivers' voice coils driven by the A1400-8 amplifier.
We'll have some more charts and specs next week.
Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert
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#165168 - 07/12/07 02:35 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: dllewel]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17377
Loc: NoVA
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Man, I wish I had $3500 lying around. I could have a couple of new computers! Oh yeah, amp...
_________________________
DON'T... call me stupid!
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#165169 - 07/12/07 04:05 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: alan]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
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100 microvolts of DC offset is spectacularly impressive particularly for a channel that I assume was operating at half the rated maximum power (700W) when this measurement was taken! I'd hate to be the engineer that is responsible for mainting this offset during production. Tom Cumberland is even more of a "slave driver" than I am . I could be dead wrong but I think your estimate of 10 to 20 times for most manufacturers is low. I would think that 15mV (150 times more) is a respectable figure that should not cause any audible speaker non-linearity. This should certainly help to make any speaker more efficient and full sounding. Nice job.
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#165170 - 07/12/07 05:39 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
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Quote:
100 microvolts of DC offset is spectacularly impressive particularly for a channel that I assume was operating at half the rated maximum power (700W) when this measurement was taken!
Just re-read my post and realized (again) that I need to pay more attention when I am typing. I meant to say that I assume the channel was playing at 700W (ie. getting warmed up) prior to turning off the source and taking the measurement.
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#165171 - 07/12/07 10:06 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: alan]
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Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making
Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 10801
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
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Quote:
For the Axiom A1400-8, the DC offset is truly tiny, approximately 0.0001 volt--that's one-ten-thousandth of a volt, a fraction of the value that many conventional amplifiers often exhibit.
Needs more cowbell.
Seriously, are you guys saving the worst specs for last or something?
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#165172 - 07/13/07 09:20 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3127
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
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Hi Mojo,
Thanks. I decided to err on the side of conservatism in estimating the typical level of DC offset of other amplifiers.
Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert
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#165173 - 07/13/07 09:24 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: axiom_man]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3127
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
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Hi all,
The cutoff date for pre-ordering the new Axiom A1400-8 amplifier has been extended to July 31st.
Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert
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#165180 - 07/17/07 12:02 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: HomeDad]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/25/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Bay Area
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I'm skeptical about the amp myself. A year ago when I purchased my speakers I asked Axiom if I should consider adding amps. They said NO, that with the Denon I have that it would make NO difference in sound quality. I don't listen to high volume music. I am into quality recorded multichannel SACD's...any thoughts?
_________________________
Confucious say: Man with both hands in pockets, feel cocky.
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#165182 - 07/17/07 12:19 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: MarkSJohnson]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17377
Loc: NoVA
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But my veils! They need lifting! My bass, unbloating! And for God's sake, think of the poor transients!
_________________________
DON'T... call me stupid!
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#165184 - 07/17/07 12:50 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: JKP005]
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axiomite
Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
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>>They said NO, that with the Denon I have that it would make NO difference in sound quality. I don't listen to high volume music. I am into quality recorded multichannel SACD's...any thoughts? Nothing has changed. Most of us here believe that one amp sounds pretty much like another except at the extremes. For low volume listening it's possible that certain amps (class A's for example) might sound a tiny bit clearer because of reduced crossover notch, but most modern amps seem to just crank up the bias current, idle hot, and get rid of the notch "the class AB" way. I assume that is one of the arguments for the little T-amps (or maybe it's just because they're cute ). At high volumes, you can start pushing the limits of a typical AV receiver and you will notice the difference between a typical good receiver and a big honkin' power amp. Where we don't have consensus yet is the exact location of the boundaries between "normal" and "extreme". If you listen at moderate volumes in a moderate size room you probably aren't going near the extremes. Bigger room, higher volumes -- yeah, a big honkin' amp is going to start making a difference IMO. EDIT -- you get more debate about one receiver sounding different from another, but I think that's mostly because it's so damn hard these days to make sure that all the signal processing and auto-eq geegaws are really truly turned off. There are still some unexplained differences in sound which have been reported by credible people but in general the threads end with "oh, THAT'S what happens when I turn that mode on" and everyone else goes out and changes their receiver settings when listening to stereo
Edited by bridgman (07/17/07 12:53 PM)
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#165185 - 07/17/07 01:27 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ken.C]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/25/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Bay Area
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The person I spoke to at Axiom told me with this new amp the audio quality will be like the difference between "night and day" at ANY level. Guess I am naive.
Edited by JKP005 (07/17/07 01:28 PM)
_________________________
Confucious say: Man with both hands in pockets, feel cocky.
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#165186 - 07/17/07 01:48 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: JKP005]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17377
Loc: NoVA
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I imagine that among the Axiom employees there is the difference of opinion found on these boards about how much/whether amps make a difference. Could be wrong there...
_________________________
DON'T... call me stupid!
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#165187 - 07/17/07 02:07 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Ken.C]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10192
Loc: 543 miles North of VAST
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Oh, just admit it Ken: A veil has been lifted on your opinion in the matter.....
_________________________
::::::: “Yum. I'd love to gnaw on those with my ears." :::::::
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#165188 - 07/17/07 02:35 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: MarkSJohnson]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17377
Loc: NoVA
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But I haven't been blown away!
_________________________
DON'T... call me stupid!
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#165189 - 07/17/07 10:45 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: JKP005]
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axiomite
Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 9981
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JK, rather disturbing to hear of nonsense like that being disseminated by an Axiom employee. No amplifier can have that sort of capability. Hopefully Ian will hear of this and put a stop to it.
_________________________
-----------------------------------
Enjoy the music, not the equipment.
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#165190 - 07/17/07 11:41 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: JKP005]
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connoisseur
Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
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Quote:
The person I spoke to at Axiom told me with this new amp the audio quality will be like the difference between "night and day" at ANY level. Guess I am naive.
The devil got into that particular employee.
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#165191 - 07/18/07 12:11 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: Mojo]
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shareholder in the making
Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 15984
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
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Giving the guy the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he meant the difference between night and day in Anchorage in the summer, where the sun barely dips below the horizon at midnight.
_________________________
-- Let me tell you a story about why I believe anecdotal evidence. --
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#165194 - 07/26/07 09:46 AM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: CV]
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newbie
Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1
Loc: Western, NC
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Is there anymore info coming out before the July 31st pre-order dealine?
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#165198 - 08/29/07 01:37 PM
Re: Release date of the A1400-8
[Re: CV]
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Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making
Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 10801
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
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Okay, two theories. One is that Axiom is taking extra time to make personalized plates for all of the preordered amps as a further show of kindness for believing in their new product category. Or... They've become emotionally attached, and they can't let go. I swear I can be a good parent. Give me your child, Axiom. 
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My RV-8 does a fantastic job but lacks HDMI support. With this news, I may just be patient until next year before any upgrades are done. 
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