Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Positioning Floorstanding Speakers

Our Newest Flagship Model: The M100

Why We Make Our Own Drivers

Wall'O'Fame
"Serenity Cinema", now with 40% extra Serenity!
Updated as requested.
Who's Online
4 registered (Ajax, JohnK, Socketman, medic8r), 121 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
12673 Members
11 Forums
22680 Topics
400414 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17695
pmbuko 16221
SirQuack 13311
CV 11054
MarkSJohnson 10670
Meanwhile On Facebook

8| Don't miss Andrew Welker's post on our message boards about the new subwoofer...

󾓲 The April Newsletter is out! Did you get your copy? http://www.axiomaudio.co...

Double-take! :O How well do you know our line? First one to spot the surprise...

Page 3 of 12 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 11 12 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#165108 - 05/17/07 10:24 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: chesseroo]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
With the specs on this amp, I think it will be more about power than how it may or may not sound different. I'm betting even Randy couldn't shut this baby down without blowing down the walls of his theatre room.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

Top
#165109 - 05/18/07 11:21 AM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: Wid]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Quote:

I have wondered why Axioms price point has been set so high when Alan has said repeatedly that in double blind test he couldn't hear a difference in various amps. Seeing how all amps sound the same it seems to be a waste of money. How is the nay Sayers going to justify recommending such a high price amp?




Hi Wid and all,

I must qualify my statement about "all amplifiers sounding the same" (as I always do) by saying the following: In the case of transistor amplifiers, a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own--provided that it has smooth, flat frequency response, low distortion, and is not driven into clipping. It's surprisingly easy to drive solid-state moderately-powered (100 watts per channel or less into 8 ohms) amplifiers into clipping with musical material that you would otherwise not expect to demand all that much power output.

At the recent Home Theater & Hi-Fi show in New York, I ran into an old friend, Peter Aczel, the founder, editor and publisher of The Audio Critic ( www.theaudiocritic.com ) which I unhesitatingly recommend to everyone interested in truth about sound reproduction and electronics, plus highly entertaining and provocative commentary on the delusional beliefs of high-end tweaks.

Like me, Peter Aczel came from a high-end belief system and discovered, through many years of double-blind testing and using A/B and A/B/X switching comparators, that smoke and mirrors, snake oil and hokum are awfully prevalent in high-end circles, the promotion of the products, and the magazines that cater to the tweako industry.

Here is how Peter Aczel states it: "It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped." Amen.

I have not A/B'd the Axiom power amplifier so far, but I can tell you that its design goals were to develop a highly efficient no-compromise extremely powerful amplifier capable of driving multiple lower-impedance loads without overheating, shut-down, individual channel failures and the like, and to do so without the owner ever worrying that the amp might be clipping or running out of dynamic headroom. To do so costs plenty. There are no short cuts.

If amplifiers are driven into clipping or near-clipping as the "knee" of the distortion curve begins to rapidly rise, then of course they will sound different, compared to one that has tons of clean power and dynamic headroom. (More on solid-state amplifiers and tubes in the upcoming newsletter.)

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

Top
#165110 - 05/18/07 12:45 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: alan]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3820
Loc: Up yonder
Quote:

Here is how Peter Aczel states it: "It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped." Amen.

Regards,




So Alan, are these characteristics normally found in low end receivers typically found sitting on the shelf at Wal-Mart?
_________________________


Top
#165111 - 05/18/07 01:07 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
Boundary conditions, my friend... a useful strawman, but hardly proof of anything.

The next time I see a Yamaha, Onkyo, Harman/Kardon, or Denon at a Walmart will be the first (yes, I did a search on their site). And those are the brands commonly recommended around here, not Emerson. I think the bit you're missing is "of a decent quality" and "at non-clipping/shutdown levels." Where those clipping levels are, of course, is where the money comes in.

My M80s run just fine at 75 wpc on an H/K--but I don't use them at the volume levels you do. Clearly, my H/K cannot provide the volumes to Randy or you, so you have an external amp. If you want to call clipping at 105dB a sound quality issue, feel free.


Edited by kcarlile (05/18/07 01:13 PM)

Top
#165112 - 05/18/07 01:57 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: michael_d]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4732
Loc: western canada
Quote:

So Alan, are these characteristics normally found in low end receivers typically found sitting on the shelf at Wal-Mart?



I think a primary failing you will see in truly low quality receivers will come first with the power supply, followed by cheesy knobs, fewer settings and perhaps even limited DACs (e.g. my friend's Sony HTIB receiver had DD but not DTS and it had a Stereo option but nothing for a Direct signal).

Trying to exactly define what is low end quality is the hard part. Does it start with a crappy company perhaps or does it begin at around a certain price point?
Is it that JVC receiver or only JVC receivers under $300, Pioneers under $200 and H/K under $100?
I don't doubt that even some boutique names with pricey tags have made some badly designed units, ones that affect sound quality, now and again. I imagine Alan might know of some examples.
Would we classify those units as 'low end quality' as well?

Just a contemplation of definition.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#165113 - 05/18/07 04:36 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: michael_d]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Quote:

Quote:

Here is how Peter Aczel states it: "It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped." Amen.

Regards,




So Alan, are these characteristics normally found in low end receivers typically found sitting on the shelf at Wal-Mart?




I don't know, since, as an audio-video hi-fi magazine editor for many years, I never reviewed or bench-tested really "low-end" electronics. I'd have to get hold of one that we'd agree was "low end" (Chess is correct: How do you define that? By price alone? Not a good indicator. .), run power bandwidth, frequency response curves, a THD + Noise measurement at various impedances and power levels, and put a spectrum analyzer on it while measuring Intermodulation Distortion (IM).

If the low-end receiver passed all those tests--some of which are quite rigorous, in particular the IM test--with good results, then if you set it up opposite a different AV receiver (assume a more costly model if you like), equalized the SPL output to within a 1/4 dB or less, made sure you didn't drive either amplifier into clipping by monitoring the audio waveform with an oscilloscope, and put it on an AB comparator concealing the price, brand and size of each product, then yes, there would be no difference in sound quality provided both units meet the aforementioned criteria.

It would be an interesting test. Clearly there are all kinds of electronic compromises made in the design of some electronics to meet very low price requirements--cheap IC output sections for example--but such shortcomings would normally show up in the lab bench tests as high distortion of one type or the other. Based on previous studies of the audibility of distortion (and on my own experience), and the measured distortion levels, I might be able to predict whether they would be audible with music or soundtracks. If, for example, there were measured levels of THD or IM distortion that were 40 dB down--that's equivalent to 1% distortion--or higher, then those might well be audible in an A/B comparison.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

Top
#165114 - 05/18/07 06:56 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: alan]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3820
Loc: Up yonder
Uhhhh....OK. Way over my head buddy, but I believe you at any rate.

I think I got my point across though. IE: don't use generalized statements like saying all modern receivers will have equal sonic characteristics as all high end processors/amps. That's not so much for this thread, but that other thread...
_________________________


Top
#165115 - 05/18/07 10:34 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: alan]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Quote:

It's surprisingly easy to drive solid-state moderately-powered (100 watts per channel or less into 8 ohms) amplifiers into clipping with musical material that you would otherwise not expect to demand all that much power output.



I believe this to be the biggest factor of all concerning ss amps. When it is said that at a comfortable listening levels you only use a watt or two I have never believed it to be true, at least not in my case. I also think even though a well built ss amp, receiver or other wise, will sound the same when used within their limits it could also be said that not all amps perform the same. Not all-lower shelf receiver’s will power a speaker like the M80s but most if not all-decent amps wouldn't have any problems. Build quality is another matter also. Believe me the Onkyo receiver I have has nothing on the Rotel equipment I use with the M80s.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


Top
#165116 - 05/18/07 10:42 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: Wid]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Quote:

When it is said that at a comfortable listening levels you only use a watt or two I have never believed it to be true...




I've certainly said something along the lines of a watt or two. By that however I mean average and not transient levels. For transients, I need at least 8 to 24 times more.

Top
#165117 - 05/18/07 10:51 PM Re: Release date of the A1400-8 [Re: Mojo]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

That's fine if that is what you say you use. When I was powering my 80s with an old Kenwood M2A amp its meters read a lot more than a watt or two.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


Top
Page 3 of 12 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 11 12 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.