Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Blind Listening Tests

Sneak Peek into Axiom’s Current Research and Development

Axiom’s Newest Speaker: The In-Ceiling M3

Wall'O'Fame
Greg's pseudo-HT room
EP175v4 with M3v4
Who's Online
3 registered (medic8r, Ajax, MarkSJohnson), 46 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
13336 Members
11 Forums
22946 Topics
405852 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17809
pmbuko 16298
SirQuack 13344
CV 11273
MarkSJohnson 10967
Meanwhile On Facebook

Shopping made easy! Need it by the 24th? Upgrade to air shipping for just $20!...

Just two more days! Better tell your gift-givers! http://axiomaudio.com/holida...

So many people took advantage of the weekend sales! Lots of auditioning about t...

Only a few hours left to get a gift card worth up to 25% of your purchase! http:...

Page 3 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#17038 - 08/10/03 01:14 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
And ya know where I got that link? From a review of a toy that blows smoke rings. Isn't the web fun?
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

Top
#17039 - 08/10/03 02:52 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4850
Loc: western canada
2x6spds,

There is already evidence pointing towards phenomena such as the psychoacoustic perceptions during human listening tests ("brain break-in"). Since some of that has been published, it is accepted as fact. Some other evidence leans towards disproving some other issues (such as the ABX double blind tests and cable theories) but has not been published yet to my knowledge (although i have also not finished reading the journal publications by Floyd Toole et al., that may contain more of this information).

I have already conceded that some things have not yet been proved nor disproved such as the SUBTLE differences which might exist between amps/receivers/cdp but i do have my own beliefs.

However, the day that some hardcore 'faith believers' actually concede that science can measure many things beyond what our meagre bodies' senses can perceive and that these audio issues could very well be caused soley on the bias in our minds having no real electrically measured differences, then i would probably leave the forums entirely knowing that people new to the home audio stuff will receive an objective and informed perspective.

Perhaps you would be willing to take the first step at bridging the gap and post a message on the forums in support of the side of science disproving advertised cable theory or amplifier differences.
How about it?

_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#17040 - 08/10/03 03:38 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Chess Posits:

Evidence exists
Some has been published
Ergo, it is accepted as fact.

Hmmmmm.

Do I understand you correctly, that folks who disagree with you (no audible differences between different amps, no such thing as break in, no audible difference between different cables - speaker, interconnect, power) are "faith believers?"

OK, nodding and smiling, nodding and smiling ...

I'm not a scientist. Basically the extent of my knowledge about electricity is never, ever take electrical appliances into the bathtub while bathing.

However, I have some experience with amps, I own a bunch, so when you suggest, "Perhaps you would be willing to take the first step at bridging the gap and post a message on the forums in support of the side of science disproving advertised cable theory or amplifier differences.
How about it?" I'll take a whack at it.

For me, because I am not electrically savvy (except don't lick fingers before stuffing them into outlets) all these amps are "black boxes" whose internal workings are obviously the work of very little people who live in each component.

All I can base my opinions on is my personal experience with each of these amps. I can hear substantial differences between these amps. I'd be astonished if you couldn't.

My amps:

Yamaha M80 (2 channel)
Anthem PVA-5 (5 channel)
(3) Onkyo M282s (2 channels each)
Kenwood KA9100 (2 channel)
Antique Sound Labs MG S1 15DT (2 channel)

Now, it may be that each amp designer hoped to achieve transparency where the amp essentially disappears between the source and the output. I can hear differences. Clearly, I do not own an ultimate amp which achieves its objective of disappearing.

I can also hear differences between speakers and sources (different CD players.)

I use Q-tips, carefully. Follow directions and report back.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
#17041 - 08/10/03 04:19 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay (to 2x6spds)
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4850
Loc: western canada
People mock what they do not understand.
Thanks for illustrating that point so clearly.


_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#17042 - 08/10/03 04:41 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay (to 2x6spds)
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Not to put too fine a point on this matter, but you profess to have no understanding as to why there may be an audible difference between amplifiers and therefore mock those who report audible differences between amplifiers.

Same for cabling, perhaps CD players as well if I recall your previous posts correctly.

All I'm suggesting is you might want to adopt a more modest and less strident certainty in your expression of your own opinions.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
#17043 - 08/10/03 09:03 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
cblake Offline
old hand

Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 80
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
In reply to:

Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so




Chess, this would be an excellent point if we were debating the existence of God. That is a claim that will never be testable because it is inherently unscientific. And I do appreciate your acknowledgement that there may be subtle differences between amplifiers. For the record, I will state that anything that is observable will also be measurable, and of course there are plenty of measurable differences not detectable by naked human perception.

However, I think you are led astray from scientific principles when you say:
In reply to:

the day that some hardcore 'faith believers' actually concede that science can measure many things beyond what our meagre bodies' senses can perceive and that these audio issues could very well be caused soley on the bias in our minds having no real electrically measured differences, then i would probably leave the forums entirely



You heard wrong
Are you saying that the entire purpose for your presence on this forum is to contradict or nullify people's observations? I am sure this is not really how you feel, but I'll run with it anyway. The scientific stance would be to prove the foundation of the phenomenon: either psychological or actual. Science is here to explain observation, sometimes when it runs counter to existing theories. When Galileo pointed his telescope to the sky and estimated that the solar system wasn't in fact revolving around Earth, he helped give birth to a new era of theory.

So here's the observational phenomenon that most troubles you: break-in. Most audiophiles observe break-in first hand, though some are not aware of it. At the very least, you have conceded that there is a common perception of break-in. Every scientist has his hypothesis about an observation, and yours seems to be that break-in of any audio component is actually a perceptual illusion, and that there is no measurable change in the equipment. One reason you gave is that when people hear one audio system for a long period of time (say 200 hours or more), and subsequently swap out one component for a new one, the sonic changes are initially very obvious; however, after extended listening they perceive a shift toward the sound of the old component. They allow themselves to believe there's a true shift in performance because they have heard of the myth of "break-in." That's a tenable hypothesis, but in order to prove it, you must run an experiment.

Hearing evil placebo
Split 100 self-proclaimed "audiophiles" into two groups. First they all listen to one sound system for 200 hours (this is a long experiment). You tell 50 of them they are going to listen to a brand new piece of audio gear, and you tell the other 50 that the new component has 500 hours of use. You swap in a component that is easily distinguishable from the previous one. You tell them to listen to the modified system and describe any audible changes that take place over 50 hours. In fact, all testing audio equipment has 500+ hours of use. Your null hypothesis: audiophiles' judgment is not swayed when they are told that an audio component is brand new. Alternate hypothesis: those told it's a new component will report more changes than those told it's used. Additionally, these changes will be toward the sonic characteristics of the original component.

If that experiment succeeds, then I will kowtow to you. However, it would only prove that some people can be swayed by the idea of break-in, and does not disprove component break-in, because you haven't tested for it. Here's my theory: in a blind test, audiophiles can tell the difference between a new pair of Axiom M22's and a pair with 100 hours of use. Specifically, they will hear the treble get more "relaxed" and less "harsh", while the bass will become deeper and louder. Okay, we'll split them into two groups again. Control for previously-listened-to speakers. They are both told that a new pair of speakers is being subbed in, and to note any differences. Then 50 audiophiles get to hear a genuinely new pair of M22s, while the other 50 are actually given a pair with 500+ hours of use.

Null hypothesis: audiophiles can't hear the difference between a new pair of M22s and a pair with 500 hours of use. Alternate hypothesis: M22s break in much like many other speakers are observed to break in: relaxing treble, extended bass.

Notice how much narrower my theory is, and thus easier to prove. But you can never disprove that M22's have audible break-in. Even if your experiment succeeds, it is still possible that M22's break in.

-Cooper

Top
#17044 - 08/10/03 10:29 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I had a high end Sherwood receiver (if that's not a contradiction of terms). Sounded like crap the day I got it. Sounded like crap the day I got rid of it. Funny, that one didn't get any better after I ran it for quite a while. I guess I just didn't psychoacoustically adjust to that particular unit.

I had a Cambridge D500SE. Sounded like crap out of the box. Let it run by itself for about 10 days. Still sounded like crap.

Got an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD Player. Sounded a bit thin out of the box. Let it run just like the Cambridge, by itself for about a week. Listened to it and smiled bigly. That one got much better!!!

My M3Tis, M22s and M50s all improved after breaking in.

Some components improve after breaking in. Some don't. Go figure.


_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
#17045 - 08/10/03 11:18 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4850
Loc: western canada
Cooper,
I've sent you a PM on this subject.
This thread is making some forum readers uncomfortable so i'm taking my part of it to private messages instead.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#17046 - 08/10/03 11:31 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
Saturn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Toronto Ontario Canuck
I'd gladly invite anyone to my place for a listening session to disprove to me that there is no sonic changes even just between my Rotel RSX 1065 and my Bryston 4B. If they can not hear any diffrence I would gladly accept that my ears and brain is lying to me and that I am going crazy.
As with the findings 2X6spds has found (non scientific or non electrical) I would agree with him. I too have heard sonic differences with different amps.
Also I read it everywhere in articles, magazines and books for the last 2 decades. To me that good enough as fact.
If I never took advice from articles and forum posts and thought it was all crap then all that reviews from the "experts" are all bogus crap too.
I use my ears and it is a good enough tool to tell me if the sound is better TO ME or not. If your telling me that a Krell or Mark Levinson is as good as your Denon, Pioneer, Yammys I'd like to know what crack your on. If those same livingrooms had the chance to audition some of those high end audio pieces then I would take your word for it. If not all you are regurgitating is someone elses diction. I have had the liberty to demo some nice equipement in MY livingroom. And we are not talking between same monetary range amps, like budget separate amps vs new surround recievers with ample wattage. I'm talking about audio gear such as a Krell KAV 300 Integrated vs a Denon amp/receiver.
Put away your p*nis analysers, get off your god complex and open your ears.

Amps that made my livingroom:

Bryston 4B
Bryston 3B
Bryston 2B
Krell KAV 300 Integrated
Rotel RSX1065
Rotel RSX1055
Onkyo Integra DTR 5.1
NAD 752
NAD early model integrated
HK AVR225
HK AVR10
Denon early model AC3 ready receiver
Rotel early model integrated stereo

ps: Just to add more lighter fluid to the fire. I still love and stand by my KIBERS! All those pretty colors. Just as good as pork fat.
_________________________
http://www.quadloft.com/hometheater- new HT

Top
#17047 - 08/10/03 11:32 PM Re: Hear No Evil: another essay
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Gee, Chess, I think if anyone doesn't take your opinion as gospel, you're the one who gets pretty uncomfortable.

Why don't you keep your cards face up on the table like the rest of us?
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
Page 3 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.