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#171339 - 07/05/07 08:31 AM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Sorry I wasn't very clear. You said it best. A 20 to 25 Hz tone played by my 600 alone varies with the dimension setting.

What I meant by no bass from any of the speakers is that when a 20 to 25 Hz tone is played in stereo mode, it comes out from my 600 only. All other speakers don't respond. So I can't figure out why the dimension setting is varying the bass.

I googled this last night to better understand how the algorithm for PLIIx may be messing with the LFE but I had no luck.

I am very perplexed about this and I'm wondering if Denon messed up on the PLIIx implementation. I'd like to hear from others if they are experiencing the same thing please.

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#171340 - 07/05/07 07:28 PM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: ereed]
joema Offline
local

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Nashville, TN
Quote:

Do you guys prefer 2 channel music or multichannel music better? Cds, HDCD, DVD-audio, SACD. Which do you prefer? I do not want to take 2 channel recording and listen to them in multichannel unless it was recorded in multichannel...



IMO native multichannel is the best musical experience, but only for material that's (a) artistically suitable and (b) technically well-mixed. It's becoming less an issue since there's so little quality multichannel material.

Simpler arrangements seem to benefit less from multichannel. More complex, textured arrangements IF engineered and mixed properly are better suited.

However any material can be ruined by a mixing engineer who takes a "gimmicky", unrestrained approach.

If you have multichannel capability, these albums are very impressive, significantly better than the stereo versions (which may themselves be very good):

Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (SACD)
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (SACD)
Roxy Music - Avalon (SACD)
Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms (DVD-A)
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours (DVD-A)
Eagles - Hotel California (DVD-A)
The Beatles - Love (DVD-A)

Note: a key reason multichannel sounds so good (if properly done) is NOT because of the high sampling resolution, but because it's been re-mixed.

Unlike remastering which can be more automated, re-mixing requires a high degree of artistic involvement. IOW the performance must be "pulled apart", and decisions made about what tracks go on what channels. The entire acoustic pallet must be re-thought. When it's done well, nothing is better. Unfortunately it's rarely done well, multichannel sales are not encouraging, so sadly the trend is unfavorable.

Using PLII or Logic 7 to convert stereo material to surround can work pretty well for some material. However it's not nearly as good as a native multichannel release. I've listened to several of the above stereo CD albums using PLII, vs the native multichannel version which is much better.

That said, PLII and Logic 7 can improve the experience for some stereo material. It's hard to predict which stereo material works well in surround using these methods. Often newer material with more phase differences works well.

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#171341 - 07/05/07 07:38 PM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: joema]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
It's great to see that there are some good SACD/DVD-A recordings, but for the most part, the catalogs seem fairly white bread--no risks taken. I'm just not interested in most of the music on them. I have DSOTM, but only because of the technical prowess (although it's growing on me). Of the list above, only Dire Straits and the Beatles appeal to me. Other things in the catalog I like, I already have the album. I suppose it's prohibitively expensive to get new, or less popular artists (or genres), onto multichannel formats.
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#171342 - 07/05/07 11:18 PM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10305
Okay, I just now ran through some experiments. Set the crossover to 200Hz so that no speaker contribution would be significant in the low bass. Took my Stryke test-tone CD and played from 20Hz up. Takes about one second to cycle from 0 to 6 on Dimension, so I was able to make quick comparisons. The level of bass did in fact get somewhat lower at the lowest(0,1)settings and this effect seemed to be over by the median 3 setting, with essentially no change between 3 and 6. I then ran mid-range tones up to 1KHz(played entirely by the speakers, of course)and observed essentially the same effect of a somewhat lower level at the 0 and 1 Dimension settings.

Since DPLII works(at least primarily)by detecting phase differences indicating reflected ambience rather than direct sound, and then removing a variable proportion of the reflected sound from the front channels and steering it to the surrounds, it would seem that pure test tones, which are simply direct tones with no reflections involved, should be unaffected by the Dimension settings. Nevertheless, some volume decrease appears, both in the bass and mid-range, at the lowest settings. What if any purpose this would have is unclear, but shouldn't raise any concerns. The lowest settings aren't frequently used for ambience steering, and if when they are used the volume decrease is noticeable(isn't noticeable to me when playing actual music)then the volume control could be raised slightly.
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#171343 - 07/06/07 12:22 AM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Quote:

The level of bass did in fact get somewhat lower at the lowest(0,1)settings and this effect seemed to be over by the median 3 setting, with essentially no change between 3 and 6. I then ran mid-range tones up to 1KHz(played entirely by the speakers, of course)and observed essentially the same effect of a somewhat lower level at the 0 and 1 Dimension settings.




Thanks for doing that. At least now I know that it's not me, my environment or my system. Let me experiment with it too to see how the level is affected from 3 to 6.

Quote:

The lowest settings aren't frequently used for ambience steering...




I'm not sure what you mean by this. The lower the dimension setting, the greater the ambience (the greater the surround field).

Quote:

...and if when they are used the volume decrease is noticeable(isn't noticeable to me when playing actual music)then the volume control could be raised slightly.




I actually noticed this effect when playing music. I have to raise my volume significantly in order to improve the bass.

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#171344 - 07/06/07 12:42 AM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10305
The comment about the lowest settings simply indicated that I generally use the median setting of 3, which on most recordings provides a satisfactory surround effect. The lowest setting would only be used in an attempt(possibly fruitless)to squeeze some extra ambience out of a very closely recorded item, or one recorded in an exceptionally "dead" venue.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#171345 - 07/06/07 08:17 AM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Understood. Thanks.

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#171346 - 07/07/07 12:11 AM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
It appears that 3 is a good compromise on the majority of the pieces I've experimented with. Oscar Peterson: We get Requests definitely sounds much much wider and deeper when set at 0 though.

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#171347 - 07/10/07 02:03 PM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: ereed]
JKP005 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 06/25/07
Posts: 37
Loc: Bay Area
Multichannel hands down. 2 channel bores me and in my opinion is as obsolete as Mono. I have a Sony SACD player with mods done by an outside company and the sound is beyond my ability to put into words. Multichannel SACD's like Dire Straits, Mark Knofler, Depeche Mode, Allison Krause, Buddy Guy and a bunch of others is in a whole nother world beyond 2 channel. A voice coming out of the center channel with no other ditstractions is something to hear. Not only does multi sound better it is entertaining!
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#171348 - 07/10/07 05:51 PM Re: 2 channel or multichannel which you prefer? [Re: JKP005]
JaimeG Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 556
Loc: Ashburn, VA
I concur.
Just curious; what mods were done to your SACD player?
- Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' SACD is pretty darn good; if you don’t already own it, I highly recommend it.
~Jaime
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