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#173728 - 08/03/07 06:09 PM M3's and in-ceiling mounting ?
Jas_M Offline
regular

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 6
Hi,

I'm currently building a theater room and planning to use a 7.1 setup. Unfortunately due to door's and windows, the left & right SIDE surrounds have to be mounted in the ceiling. I was planning on purchasing the Epic 80 Theater package (5.1) and purchasing a pair of M3's to be placed in the ceiling.

Can someone tell me if this will work, or reccommend a better setup in my case. I'm really not that familiar with axiom products (my friend is) so I leave this question to the experts here to address.

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#173729 - 08/03/07 07:50 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Jas_M]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Everyone knows how I feel about in-ceiling speakers for home theatre. But, if you must, it may be easier to go with the W series.

Why don't you use QSs and place them ahead or behind of the obstacles?

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#173730 - 08/03/07 07:58 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Jas_M]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Any possibility of hanging your side surrounds from the ceiling using the Full Metal Ceiling bracket, or some other ceiling bracket? That would allow you to use M3s, or even the incredible QS surrounds, in a more conventional and advantageous manner.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#173731 - 08/03/07 08:00 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ajax]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
M3s are quite large, so you'd better have a really, really thick ceiling if you're going to try that. I'd rather suspend QS8s from the ceiling. You also aren't going to want direct radiators for side surrounds and quadpolar speakers for the rear--that's pretty much opposite of how it should go.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#173732 - 08/03/07 10:23 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ken.C]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Quote:

You also aren't going to want direct radiators for side surrounds and quadpolar speakers for the rear--that's pretty much opposite of how it should go.




Now you got me thinking. Maybe I should change my rear QS8s to M3s for better rear effects.

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#173733 - 08/03/07 10:23 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ken.C]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Ken, isn't it a given that one would NOT screw the speaker and bracket into something incapable of holding it? I agree that the QS8s are preferable for side surrounds which is why I described them as "incredible."
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#173734 - 08/03/07 10:30 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Mojo]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

You also aren't going to want direct radiators for side surrounds and quadpolar speakers for the rear--that's pretty much opposite of how it should go.




Now you got me thinking. Maybe I should change my rear QS8s to M3s for better rear effects.



If you primarily use your rears for HT, I would think the QS8s would be preferable in the rear. I use direct radiators for my rears, and am considering moving them to my bedroom system and replacing them with dipoles that match my side surrounds.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#173735 - 08/03/07 10:38 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ajax]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Quote:

I use direct radiators for my rears, and am considering moving them to my bedroom system and replacing them with dipoles that match my side surrounds.




Why? What are you unhappy about?

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#173736 - 08/03/07 11:42 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Some people use direct radiating in the rears for music reasons. However, for HT use the Q's will still perform better. Actually, I think my 4 Q's do great for music as well, pretty much wraps you in the sound.

I'm also not a fan of "in-ceiling" speakers for left/right surrounds or rears. It basically goes against the whole purpose of how those channels are to be experienced.

I would try to ceiling mount some Q's either with a DIY method or Axiom bracket. They will not block the windows that much and if you get the right color to match your room decor, they will compliment your room.
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#173737 - 08/03/07 11:57 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: SirQuack]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
Oh, my feeling was just that if you're going to have both direct radiators and multipolar speakers in your setup, it makes more sense to put the multipolars on the sides than the back. If you're going to have multipolars all around, more power to you.

Jack, my comment wasn't directed at your post. If he's trying to stick M3s in the ceiling, it had better be one thick ceiling so that they don't stick out the floor above!
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#173738 - 08/04/07 12:00 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ken.C]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
I agree with you Ken on all counts. I suppose if he has 2 x 12's in his rafters it might be deep enough, but would most likely sound like crap.
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#173739 - 08/04/07 02:41 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: SirQuack]
Jas_M Offline
regular

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 6
Alright fellas, you've talked me out of the in-ceiling idea, however, I really am in a bind. Do you guys think mounting the QS-8's facing down from the ceiling will work? (see rough sketch below)



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#173740 - 08/04/07 03:43 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Jas_M]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
JM, welcome. Sure, mounting them on the ceiling facing downward would work if you secure them so that they don't slide off of the mounting bracket. Since they're side surrounds they should be separated as much as possible, to within a few inches of the side walls, rather than the more inward spot shown in your sketch.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#173741 - 08/04/07 08:13 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Mojo]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

I use direct radiators for my rears, and am considering moving them to my bedroom system and replacing them with dipoles that match my side surrounds.




Why? What are you unhappy about?



I don't think "unhappy" is quite the right word.

It is my opinion, and my opinion only, that if one uses 7.1 exclusively for HT, then multichannel speakers in the rear would provide a more satifying HT experience than using direct radiating speakers in the rear.

I put direct radiators in the rear because I love SACDs and DVDAs, and the common wisdom is that all speakers should be direct radiators when listening to multichannel music. The problem is that the correct position for direct radiating surrounds when listening to multichannel music is not where the surrounds should be for 7.1 movies. For multichannel music they should be approximately in the same location as your side surrounds, but at the same height as your mains and center.



So, either you are forced to be constantly moving your rear surrounds (depending on what you're listening to), or you live with your surrounds being in the wrong location part of the time.

I've got another reason for putting dipoles in the rear, but it only applies to me. When I started listening to multichannel music, I had a 5.1 setup only, with QS8s as my surrounds. I became accustomed to the sound of SACDs and DVDAs using multipolar surrounds mounted higher than they were supposed to be. I like it more than I like direct radiators in the correct position.

What I like multichannel music to do is expand the soundstage and give me the feeling I'm in a concert hall. I am not fond of the "you're in the middle of the band" feeling (ironic, since I was a professional musician ), and the multipolar speakers, mounted higher than recommended, minimize that 'middle of the band feeling,' should the disc happen to be mixed that way.

So, yes, shame on me for not doing things they way they were intended. But, it's my room, my speakers, and my choice. YMMV.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#173742 - 08/04/07 08:16 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ken.C]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Jack, my comment wasn't directed at your post.



OOPS! My bad, Ken. (How's that for an old guy sounding hip. I used to be 'hip' ya know. Now I'm just 'hippy' . Come to think of it, I used to be one of those too, or is that spelled 'hippie'? ) Since your post said "RE: Ajax", I assumed your comment was directed toward me.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#173743 - 08/04/07 11:15 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Jas_M]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
You could do that, but I'd be concerned that the seperation from the left/right sides. With the tweeters firing to the left/right as designed you are enveloped in the sound. With them firing down, that is a different story.

I still don't see why you can't mount them on the sides, either to the front or behind the listener. They are very forgiving. If your considering mounting them flush, your not going to lose a lot by mounting them as you should, other than needing to leave a few inches for the top driver to breath.

Can you provide a picture or drawing of your side walls so we can understand your situation?
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#173744 - 08/04/07 02:45 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ajax]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Quote:

Now I'm just 'hippy'




Yeah, but you're 100% organic, not Titanium Man.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#173745 - 08/04/07 02:57 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10966
Loc: Central NH
You guys sure can go OT easily.

What does Jack's big hips have to do with anything?
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#173746 - 08/04/07 07:53 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Jas_M Offline
regular

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 6
As requested here is a picture of the side view.



Please forgive my poor sketching skills, but as you can see I can mount the LEFT surround perfectly on the wall, but the RIGHT surround is a lost cause. Because of this, I would rather have both go in-ceiling/on-ceiling for uniformity.

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#173747 - 08/04/07 08:13 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Ajax]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3922
Loc: Up yonder
While Iím a definite proponent for rear surrounds in a 7.1 system, Iím beginning to think itís over rated for HT and you could throw up just about anything to exploit whatever garbled noise gets sent to them. I have been considering swapping out my M3ís for another set of QS-8ís, because the M3ís are just too darn big and look out of place for my small room. Well the other day I was chasing a possible wiring issue and ended up with just the Surround backs (M3ís) hooked up to my receiver. Has anyone ever done this?? If you havenít, do itÖ A PLIIx matrixed movie sends nothing but a mess of un-intelligible noise to these speakers. I donít care what you put up to reproduce this garbage, itís still just garbage. The only thing that sounded pretty darn good was when I put in my trusty SACD Dark Side of the Moon, and also a few Discrete 6.1 DVDís and two 6.1 Blue Ray DVDís I have. The sound coming from the back surrounds was much more identifiable and not just noise. So from my little science project with the rear surrounds, I wouldnít get too excited over the speaker you use, just use something. Ė Donít waste your money Jack. Try listening to just the backs first. You may change your mind.
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#173748 - 08/06/07 09:45 AM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Jas_M]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
I don't see the "lost cause" issue? It is perfectly fine to have the left/right surrounds slightly in front of you, in fact it is recommended. It appears you have room in front of the opening on the right side, unless the drawing is way off scale?

If you do it like the picture it appears you won't have much seperation from your left/right and rear speakers.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#173749 - 08/06/07 11:16 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: SirQuack]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
JM, as Randy has pointed out, it doesn't really appear that you have a serious problem. The couch appears in your diagram to be directly to the side of the open areas which apparently are a door and window, therefore pre-empting the ideal location for side surrounds(when back surrounds are also present), but if you mount them about 6' up at the front edges of the door/window, the distance they'd be in front of the listeners would be relatively small. If the couch could be moved a couple feet forward it'd be even better.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#173750 - 08/07/07 07:11 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: JohnK]
Jas_M Offline
regular

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 6
First I apologize my "side-view" diagram was not complete - I am going to create an in-wall A/V Rack next to the extended opening on the right side. Because of the sheer size of this built-in cabinetry I really have no option of wall mounting the RIGHT surround.... well atleast not without placing it 5/6 feet in frount of the couch - which I just wont do.

The more and more I think about it - becomes a question of 7.1 (with surrounds in the ceiling) or going for 5.1 setup instead.


Edited by Jas_M (08/07/07 07:13 PM)

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#173751 - 08/07/07 07:27 PM Re: M3's and in-ceiling mounting ? [Re: Jas_M]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Even with 5.1, your left/right surrounds should go to the sides of the listener, unless you have no other options. If nothing else, make sure they are spread out as wide as possible, and maybe angled in towards the listener if possible.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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