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#177177 - 09/25/07 08:04 PM Re: Jack? [Re: Ajax]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Jack, you're right that the best part about these GTG is the people. Nothing better than fellowship while sharing and learning about one's passion or hobby.

I did find a couple of things striking while reading the posts at 123 about the GTG. The first is 123's product philosophy. It appears that 123 is building speakers using multiple design approaches (traditional, non-traditional and emerging) in order to appeal to various buyers. I'm not talking about form but rather function. While on the surface this appears to be very accommodating, I also find it unusual and confusing. Exactly what does 123 believe in and stand for? Are some designs more appropriate for some applications compared to others? If so, I can't find any evidence of that on their site. Manufacturers usually research alternatives, select one that is well-justified and develop the best products possible so as not to dilute resources. 123 appears to be taking a shotgun rather than a rifle approach.

The second thing I found striking is the lack of a significant gap in the ratings amongst reviewed pairs of speakers at the GTG. Why is that? Maybe the results aren't statistically significant because voter population needed to be larger. Or maybe the speakers are closely matched. Or maybe there is no significant difference under those specific test conditions. I for one would be more interested in seeing what the test conditions were and also Floyd Toole's rating sheet.

Thanks for sharing this with us, Jack.

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#177178 - 09/25/07 09:43 PM Re: Jack? [Re: Mojo]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Mojo, I believe it was stated in an earlier post of mine that these are merely listening impression and subjective opinions. No one has ever claimed the results are "statistically significant." Feel free to totally disregard the results if you wish.

I did not participate in the comparison, but I suspect the lack of a significant gap in the ratings is because, under blind conditions, it is very difficult to quantify subjective opinion. Periodically, the participants switched seats so as to experience each pair of speakers from several different positions within the room. Many remarked at how they responded differently to each speaker, depending on their position in the room, making their evaluations just that much more difficult.

Unless you've done an evaluation under blind conditions you have no idea how difficult and exhausting it can be.

Regarding av123:

Rocket/Rocket II --- Home Theater - great for nulti-channel music applications too.

REF --- 2 channel "cross over" product for those that love music but want HT - very high end finish. Reputedly a bit more "forward" than Rockets.

Strata --- Intimate 2-channel (but some are, surprisingly, using them for HT)- Planer Magnetic tweeter and midrange

LS --- 2 channel all the way - Line Source product... high end... limited market.

x-series --- extreme value product - great for the money at all price points - nice finish

Hope that helps.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#177179 - 09/25/07 10:01 PM Re: Jack? [Re: Ajax]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
What's that Vick's Vapo-Rub doing on top of that subwoofer? Did it sounds congested?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#177180 - 09/25/07 10:14 PM Re: Jack? [Re: pmbuko]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
LOL! I thought the same thing when I saw that photo. Wish I could answer your question.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#177181 - 09/26/07 12:26 AM Re: Jack? [Re: Ajax]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Quote:

Mojo, I believe it was stated in an earlier post of mine that these are merely listening impression and subjective opinions. No one has ever claimed the results are "statistically significant." Feel free to totally disregard the results if you wish.




Understood. Thanks.

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#177182 - 09/26/07 10:27 AM Re: Jack? [Re: Ajax]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Quote:

No one has ever claimed the results are "statistically significant." Feel free to totally disregard the results if you wish.

I did not participate in the comparison, but I suspect the lack of a significant gap in the ratings is because, under blind conditions, it is very difficult to quantify subjective opinion. Periodically, the participants switched seats so as to experience each pair of speakers from several different positions within the room. Many remarked at how they responded differently to each speaker, depending on their position in the room, making their evaluations just that much more difficult.

Unless you've done an evaluation under blind conditions you have no idea how difficult and exhausting it can be.



Jack, for once there is not a single thing here that i disagree with.
Ah, no, waitaminute, that's not true.
I was expecting to see some regression lines and p values on those results.


Just out of curiousity, was there any reason why Axioms were not auditioned in the tests? Given the price range of that lineup, i thought for sure they would be.


Edited by chesseroo (09/26/07 10:28 AM)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#177183 - 09/26/07 11:25 AM Re: Jack? [Re: chesseroo]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Craig made the choice as to which speakers would be included in the comparison. I was not privy to his reasoning, so I can't really answer your question. However, that Axiom switch had everyone drooling. Having the ability to instantaneously switch between level-matched speakers was a joy.

I audited (listened but didn't score) round 2. It drove me nuts. Craig played a female vocal, a male vocal, and an instrumental for on each pair of speakers. The differences between the two speakers were apparent. With one selection I found myself preferring speaker A without being able to quite say why, and with another I preferred speaker B, again, without being able to quite say why.

Making it even more difficult was the fact that each speaker brought to the table something the other didn't. One speaker had a narrower soundstage (approximately between the speakers), but the middle of the soundstage (i.e., the vocal) was forward (closer to me) which is a speaker trait I, very much, appreciate. That's why I like Axioms.

The other speaker had the vocal more, but not unacceptably, recessed, but the soundstage extended well beyond the spread of the two speakers and I, very much, like that trait. So, I liked aspects of each, both could be considered "good," and owners of each would have reason to quite satisfied with their speakers. Trying to decide which I preferred was agony. AAARRRGGGHHH!

Had I participated in all 6 rounds I might have come across one speaker that, in my opinion, did it all, but somehow I doubt that would have occured.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#177184 - 09/26/07 11:34 AM Re: Jack? [Re: Ajax]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
You could always jam a pencil into your ear canal and perforate your ear drum. That would handily remove one of the variables from consideration -- namely soundstage -- and you give qualities such as tonality more attention.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#177185 - 09/26/07 12:09 PM Re: Jack? [Re: pmbuko]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
NAW! That wouldn't have helped at all. While my pain and suffering might have been slightly diminished because I wouldn't have had to worry about soundstage, that diminution would have been more than compensated for by the added pain of the perforated eardrum.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#177186 - 09/26/07 01:56 PM Re: Jack? [Re: Ajax]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Quote:

Trying to decide which I preferred was agony. AAARRRGGGHHH!
Had I participated in all 6 rounds I might have come across one speaker that, in my opinion, did it all, but somehow I doubt that would have occured.




Yes i know that feeling.
Flipping between a Monitor Audio, Tannoy and Axiom speaker, i liked aspects of all three, but none of the three seemed to fill the perfect shoes.
I was very tired from listening after playing with that for 3 hours.

So the testing trods on...
I should have a chance to hear some rebuilt Fostex LS3s



hopefully early next week following shortly by some Mirage OM5s.


_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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