Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Axiom M80 V2 vs. Paradigm Monitor 11 V3

A sleep-deprived jakewash (Jason) and I made our way down to Calgary's General Audio earlier today for a showdown between the M80s and Paradigm Monitor 11s. I chose the 11s because they are closely priced to the 80s at a $99 adder to the 80s' $1300 cost. We're very grateful to Brian and Rod from GA for agreeing to the use of their facilities and equipment.

We listened through a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C CD player, a Cambridge Audio 640A integrated amp, Aralex Acoustics 14 gauge, CL3R-FT4 speaker cables and Eichmann Express 6 interconnects. Unfortunately this set-up did not have an A/B switch so we resorted to cable-swapping making the banana terminations a necessity rather than a luxury. To eliminate gain bias, I calibrated the volume control with each speaker to give us 81dBC using in phase pink noise recorded at -10dB. Then I measured the relative sensitivities and found that the Paradigm was 2dB better than the Axiom.

First up was Ventana Al Sol from Echoes of Incas. As I've mentioned before, this track has sounds from all bands of the audible frequency spectrum including water falls, drums, flutes as well as chirping birds that appear in various places along the front, above, to the sides and well away from the speaker boundaries. We found that both speakers sounded very similar with the centre image edge going to the Axioms. The Paradigms were ever so slightly more laid back than the Axioms and with a tad less shimmer and air on the highs. I personally am very familiar with this particular track and was listening intently for the location of all the birds. The birds out front appeared identically on both while the one that imaged above my head with the Axioms decided to move about a foot forward with the Paradigms. The most extraordinary difference was the bird that normally appears at my side-wall between the left M80 and left QS8. It appeared again in the same relative location with the Axioms but decided to move to just outside the Paradigm's boundary. Is this difference due to the 80's extra tweeter or perhaps the fact that the Paradigm was on the 80's interior? Whatever the reason, the two foes sounded very close on this track.

Second up was Diana Krall's Love Scenes. I listened very intently to the popping cork in track 2: Peel me a Grape. The popping sounded identical on both speakers. I was particularly curious about this specific effect because a week earlier I listened to the same track on Paradigm Studio 100s ($2200) and found that I not only heard the pop as the main event but also a prelude, interlude and postlude. One hears the slight struggle of the cork followed by the pop resonating with exuberance as it frees itself from the bottle and then the relief of the contents as they escape the pressure. This is not a subtle effect on the Studio 100s and the most inexperienced listener will readily hear it. Alas, no such wonder was heard with the 80s or the 11s. Next up was track 11: My Love Is. Jason and I found that the bass was slightly more involving with the 80s as we heard not only the string vibrations that were prominent in the 11s but also harmonics and air around them. With the 11s, I heard a slightly shorter Diana and Jason heard her a bit further back. Again, these two speakers could be mistaken for twins.

Track 6: Ride Across the River and Track 2: Money for Nothing from Dire Straits: Brothers in Arms were next. In my home, track 6 has spatial cues that appear slightly behind me. A lack of nearby walls completely killed these cues in today's venue. Money on the Axioms had slightly more "pop" in the bass than the Paradigms. And we couldn't help but notice the extra shimmer, air and slight forwardness of the 80s compared to the 11s.

So there you have it. Two Canadian speakers, originating from the same Canadian region and sounding very similar with the exception of some nuances like a tad more involved bass, a touch more forwardness and a smidgeon of shimmering & airy highs on the part of the Axioms. The Paradigms do however require 30% less power to produce the same sound pressure level. It's not surprising that these acoustic transducers sound similar. Both companies believe that accurate speakers have a flat on axis response with an even but constantly declining polar response. This principle is advocated by Canada's National Research Council and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Paradigm's principals were, like Ian from Axiom, at one time or another involved in acoustic research at the NRC.

Jason had to leave for work but I could have stayed 'till close if it wasn't for the fact that it was my turn to cook. I had enough music to keep me going for hours. I see many on these boards asking about Paradigms and I feel thankful that my curiousity has now been satisfied thanks to Brian and Rod from General Audio. I continue to be very satisfied with my M80 purchase and I hope this review helps others with their speaker selection. I've included pictures below to let readers judge the aesthetics for themselves.

PS: Although this isn't a review on the Paradigm Studio 100V3s, relative to the 80s, the Studio 100s could have used a touch more twinkle in their tweets and a tad more image coherence. Apart from these quibbles, these $2200 speakers were absolutely terrific.

You say the Paradigm use 30% less power than the M80s. That means you could go without an amp if you had the Paradigms. I mean what 30% less than a 1/4 watt .

It's 0.175. I could use the noise from my lights to power them .

It was a nice write up. What did the owners of the shop think about the M80s ?

Thanks. They had nothing to say. They were busy with paperwork and helping paying customers. I plan on going back there when I'm in the market for a CD player. They carry Sherwood-Newcastle and they look pretty nice. BTW, Denon is made by SN apparently.

Nice write up Mojo and thanks for the invitation to tag along. I will just add my 2 cents, I felt the M80's had a tad more open, spacial feel to them and were ever so slightly more forward. Some of the softer points in the recordings I found to be easier to hear on the Axioms as well. The differences were hard to pick out with out A/B switching. (Ian where is that consumer A/B switcher?)

You forgot to mention our non critical listening of the $15,000 Focals that we felt sounded smoother, more even in the bass (8"passive woofer)and had the M80s upper and mid sound, but for the money the artist should be coming to your house to play!

Also the interesting conversation about wires, interconnects, fiberoptics and such, but I won't go there. I really should have brought some home to play with. I can believe the interconnect issue, even the optical cable to a minor extent, but the speaker wire was a little hard to bite on.

It was a fun couple of hours and I too could have stayed longer, as I had my M22s with me for some comparisons, but as was eluded to, I had to run off to pick up my son from preschool, then off to work, where I am now.

Thanks to you two! It was interesting read.

Nice writeup, I think it would have been intersting to see how the 80's compared with a bit more of a gutsy amplifier. And directly against the Studio 100's since thats the speaker in particular they sometimes get compared to.

Its always funny to see how small the M80's look next to floorstanders in their same pricerange. The studio 100's look like beasts compared to the 80's.

I think our review says more about what Paradigm has done to bring up their entry level stuff, than it says about how good the Axiom is. I know when I was originally looking 4 years ago the entry level Paradigms couldn't hold a candle to the Axioms, once I finally had some to compare them to. Now they are pretty close, the edge going to Axiom.

Interesting indeed.

Jason, you're absolutely right about the more open, spatial feel to the Axioms. That's what I was trying to get at when I said "airy". Your way is a better way to explain it.

I doubt very much I'll take the 80s out again as the corners damage very easily. But I would like to take a good, critical listen to the 100s some time. I really liked what I heard with that pop but then again they're almost $1000 more.

Jason, that's an interesting way to look at it. It sounds like the M80s maybe in for a V3 so that Paradigm M11V4's don't have an edge. But what can one do better on the 80s without increasing cost?

Isn't the question, What is it that seems to make the more expensive speakers worth the extra cash?....Brand name? I really can't justify the more expensive speakers out there, based solely on the Sound Quality. The difference is just not that much, IMO, even within the Paradigm line or those Focals. They may have made the M11s too good and hurt sales of their higher priced lines. Axiom will be fine, as they DO still have an edge in sound reproduction, IMO. But Paradigm has really made it close. I wonder if other retailers are selling them for the same price as GA appears to be lower than most for its pricing, at least on the few items I know of.

I am curious what people's opinions are on the relative aesthetics between these two speakers.

Well the paradigms do have a more refined and polished look to them. Mainly because of the lack of grill peg holes. But then theres that hideous midrange that doesnt exactly "blend in"

As far as looks go I give the edge to the Axioms. The Paradigms have a "look at me" quality that is plain tacky imo.

I neglected to mention that on Diana Krall's track 11: My Love Is, we listened for sibilance. Jason felt the Axioms were a tad more sibilant but I couldn't hear a difference.

Any more comments on the looks between the two?

I like the size of the paradigms...I hope axioms new flagship is just as tall, if not taller than those. The M80s look small in comparison!

Nice review, by the sounds of it, I think it seems as though that model you reviewed is more comparable to the M60s...with the more "laid back" quality you described. It would be very interested to compare the M60s to those speakers.

I wouldn't say that the Paradigm is laid back to the degree of the M60s. Not even close actually. The two speakers are really very closely matched. What I would like to do some time is compare them in my own environment.

Judging by trends in the industry, I'd be willing to bet that the new speakers will be behemoths.

Nice review... Thanks Mojo and JakeWash!

What Mojo said. The M60s are too laid back compared to either the M80 or M11. The M60s are laid back enough to be called recessed, IMO. The M80 M11 difference is marginal at best, only noticeable on certain sounds and tracks.

I find it interesting that you find the M60 "laid back" while Alan @ Axiom says in another thread.

I like the looks of the Paradigms better. The two tone gray and black is just more eye catching. But since I leave my grills on so as not to allow any reflected light during movies/gaming it wouldn’t be a factor in a purchase decision.

My 'laid back' is in comparison to the M80 and M22. I know that Mojo and I both, during our session, while A/B switching, could easily tell which was which. The M80s were way more forward than the M60s. Maybe I am just being a little too critical of the differences, but when the M22 sounds closer to the M80(mids and uppers only) than the M60, something is audibly different about it. My wife picked up on the lack of forwardness in the M60s right away and she said she didn't like them until I paired them with the M22s, then she smiled.

I seem to remember some one saying the V1 M60s were in fact closer to the M80s sound than the V2, maybe that is what Alan is going by? Is it Alan?

I read what Alan said and I was very surprised. Now Alan does have a few years on me and Jason and ears aren't all the same...I'll just stop there so as not to cause a scene .

There is no question that the 60s and 80s are extremely easily discernible even to the untrained ear. I don't know if I mentioned it before but the 60s very much reminded me of my Bose 601s with the exception of crisper highs, better instrument localization and smoother bass. They were as laid back as the Boses. And that's not necessarily bad because I find that it's easier for me at least to get involved in the music if it's laid back a bit. But I am getting better at just relaxing rather than practicing forensic acoustics.

The M22 does definitely sound closer to the 80 than the 60. Jason likes the clarity of the 22s but I personally would rather have a bookshelf that has a sound closer to the 60s...and I'd certainly take the 80s' sound in a bookshelf if that was possible. I'll eventually need bookshelves for other areas of our house so I'm anxious to listen to M3s.

I continue to be astounded and mesmerized with the 80s. They sound so much better in my listening space than at General Audio. From now on, when I do listening tests, I'm going to try bringing the speakers to my place.

I've chatted with a few local places about this. The larger stores usually have a no questions return policy which makes things easy. The smaller more boutique stores actually want you to purchase the item, charged to a card, but is returnable.
It has to be in mint condition though or they will find some bogus charge for repairs or restocking fee to compensate for "their" wasted time if you brought it back for a full refund.

Absolutely i agree that if possible you should listen to the equipment in your own home. Having switched homes a few times now, i can attest to the difference in sound quality my favorite models have had in different locations.

I was quite happy to read this post as I had recently picked up a Monitor 11 v.5 system. I must admit I had balked at getting an Axiom 5.1 system due to the possible high return shipping costs on unheard speakers. I could get the Paradigms locally immediately, for less [$950 vice $980(M60) or $1300(M80)] especially since I loved the sound of them in the store. Still do actually. More and more each day. I must say they have reawakened my love of music (lulled by RCA HTiB and MP3s). I have since decided to use my new Room 2 capability with a pair of M3s (still waiting for Purolator) so that I can get into the Axiom sound. After spending over two grand on a system that works, $300 looks like chicken feed (yes, I am aware of the fact that the risk of a few hundred dollars kept me from the Axioms to begin with. Sweet irony. What can I say, I'm retarded that way!).

As for the looks of the two systems, I would say I like the M11s better, although they really do seem to sound better with the grilles on, so it becomes a bit of a moot point.

That's what it is all about, being happy, brand names aside. Hope you like the M3s and do stick around.

Grats on your purchase!
A year later I still smile when I'm listening to a song on my new speakers that I hadn't heard on them yet and I hear the difference I have been missing all along. I hope the excitement continues to last a long time for you as well.

Mat,

The Paradigms were actually designed to be played with the grills on. We made sure to listen to them with the grills on in the store. Enjoy your speakers and let us know what you think about the M3s. I personally would be very interested in hearing your comparison between the M3s and your Paradigms although I do realize that one is a floor-stander and the other is a bookshelf.

Gonna have to wait a bit longer on that head-to-head as one of the speakers was damaged during shipping. I think I'll blame BC Ferries. They're always a good scapegoat.

Sorry to hear it was damaged. What was it? These things are kind of like car wrecks, you just have to look and ask questions.

It was an 8cm crack (almost half the depth of the speaker) caving in part of the casing. It looks like it was dropped on a post with a rubber cap or something as there was no puncture wound per se (other than the carton), just impact damage.

That speaker weighs next to nothing so I'm sure it wasn't dropped. It was thrown with extreme prejudice. Almost every single box I've received from Axiom has, what I consider to be, and excessive amount of damage (not to the contents; just the box). I feel that Axiom has exercised a great amount of due diligence with the packaging design. If it had to be more robust, it would have to be crated and that's a huge expense. If I was Axiom, I would be documenting each and every occurence like yours and negotiating compensation with the shipper.

From my experience, I would say something landed on it, as the M3 is not that hard to handle. The chutes the packages go down get clogged up and stuff up to 70lbs will go down them. The box doesn't stand a chance under the right circumstances. Some of the things I have seen go down the lines should never go.

I once worked in an airport. My tour included a quick in & out of the giant conveyor belt sorting area. Unless I'm traveling for more than a week, I CRAM my life into a carry on.

Smart thinking.

I called my local stereo shop who I've dealt with since 98 for all my equipment; Paradigm included, and asked if they would let me do a A/B test using my new M80's (opening the boxes tomorrow) VS Paradigm 11V5's and they are more than accommodating!!! Possibly next week. CAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNT WAIT!!

You are of course going to post your findings and pics, right?

Yes I will, but I'm not as technical as Mojo and others

No need to be technical, stumble your through it if you have to. I did a link to speaker review terminolgy not too long ago, it is on Axiom's site
link

Don't worry about it too much. Keep it simple and tell us what you like and don't like. We're not that demanding as an audience.

You just have to be careful when you do the A/B comparison. I took my Bose 701's in to do the A/B testing. We through in Jurasic Park 3 and they turned up the Paradigms to crazy levels. The sound blew me away and then we switched to the 701's and it was night and day. I then turned around and asked if I could put Left Paradigm vs Right 701. When we did this the Bose really woke up.

To make a long story short, it turns out that the Paradigms were on an external amp and the 701's were just off of the receiver. The guy I dealt with said that he didn't know about it and thought that both wires were running off of the external amp. Needless to say, I watched him like a hawk for the remainder of the testing.

As a side note, it didn't matter as the 701's weren't even comparable to the Paradigm Monitor 11's.

That's really terrible.

Got my replacement M3 today so hopefully I'll get a chance this wknd to set up a comparison that would be more favourable than my previous Monitor 11 5.1 system vs single M3 matchup. The M3 was, I'm sad to report here, utterly blown away in that test - clear it may have been, but it seemed to be lacking something, especially in those surround scenes. The imaging was lackluster, at best.

I finally got a chance to hear the M3s last week-end. It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Ok, some first impressions in the poorly engineered comparison (consisting of pause button and switching of banana plugs) between the Monitor 11 and M3 in 2.0 and 2.1 configs (with Paradigm PDR10 - 100w, 10"). I've only 'directly' compared two albums so far: Pink Floyd - Animals, and Dire Straits - Love Over Gold.

The M3 is a great speaker, very much in line characteristically with what I have been listening to for the last few months (having jumped up from an RCA HTiB): clear, precise, not really laid back but certainly not forward. Definitely no "brightness" that seems to be everyone's big Axiom fear. The first thing that hit me was the effortless imaging and soundstage of the M3s. The Mon11 has just as good imaging but just tossing the M3s down and plugging them in was all I needed to get the image. Even extremes of toe in/out gives good imaging, although the overall sound is affected as expected.

One thing I had never noticed before was the difference between setting Lg and Sm on the Mon11. In this test I jumped back and forth on the DS album and, if anything, they sounded somewhat better as Lg (ie without the sub). Not terribly surprising as they are, after all, towers (1" tweet, 7.5" mid, 2x 7.5" woof). The M3s (1" tweet, 6.5" woof), on the other hand, were night and day! Although for current pop recordings the M3 is a very capable speaker without the aid of a sub based on my initial listening of the rather different fare of Feist, Tegan and Sara, and The New Pornagraphers. TNP, for instance, were, as with most music on the Mon11, only marginally distinguishable b/n Lg and Sm on the M3s. Even Tool seems to have only a small difference. However on DS tracks like Telegraph Road and Private Investigations the lack of bass was dramatic! The songs were completely different with and w/o the sub (further testament to the dynamic range compression of today's recordings). I had, before today, been somewhat dissappointed in the overall performance of the PDR10 - unheard with music and unimpressive with HT. It does, however, sound fantastic with the M3s! They blend rather seemlessly, actually. This, of course, also helps me better rationalize pairing the M3s off with the PDR10 for the office and getting an EP350 for my main system (I'm still having trouble justifying paying over a grand for the 500).

Overall, I'd say there is no way I'd trade Paradigm tower for Axiom bookshelf+sub. Even with the full range the M3 still lacks the fullness? of the tower. The M3 does, however, beautifully fit the bill for a smaller 2.0 or 2.1 channel environment! Definitely a keeper! I would not hesitate recommending (and, indeed, already have) the M3 to anyone looking for a bookshelf system.

Thanks for the reveiw. It was what I was expecting. Pretty much all bookshelves leave you wanting that little bit more and floorstanders have it.

I can relate to your dilemma on the EP500, I currently have the EP400 on loan and for the $1000 I would expect alot more sub.

Mat,

Thanks for the review. No surprise there.

I have a very interesting question for you though. Which speaker do you feel is easier to relax with?

OK, I've spent a few more weeks now with both speakers side by side and if I had a gun placed to my head I'd have to say the M3s are marginally easier to relax with. The Mon 11s are certainly not a fatiguing speaker by any stretch, but I have on two occasions noticed a slight headache after a 4-5 hr session [strictly listening, no reading or anything (other than, perhaps, liner notes)]. This has not happened with the M3s, to date. Mind you I have had more marathon sessions with the 11s than the 3s, and only twice with any negative consequences. The session variables are legion, so I'm not sure what can be read from the experiences other than that neither would be problematic.

All in all I can't see the M3 being even remotely fatiguing. Kinda sorry now that I didn't bid more aggressively for the last M40.

Thanks for the read Matt. This is exactly the stuff I'm lookin' for. Man I dig this site....and I don't even have aany home theatre/stereo stuff yet.

Before you know it you'll have $10,000 worth of AV equipment and 5000 posts!

So after about 7 months of searching for my new setup, I finally pulled the trigger on the first phase of my speaker setup. I sold my existing Sony tower surround set that I had since college and picked up the Monitor 11's as well as the CC290. I originally had the bigger 390, but due to WAF and unable to find a good place to put it, went with the 290 and am extremely impressed even though I may have downgraded. I was going to go witht he Axiom m60's and VP150. I also picked up a new TV stand but still in the market for a new LCD/Plasma. I still have my 27" JVC tube tv. Due to the weird configuration of the room, I have not gotten the surround speakers yet until I figure out a good way to hide wires. Before I had a wireless setup for the rear speakers, but it just wasn't my cup of coffee, and I didn't like the fact of having a cheap wireless amplifier paired up with my Onkyo reciever. Nevertheless, it still provided the surround sound but at 10% distortion, I got rid of it. It was a good showdown between Axiom and Paradigm. I preferred the look of the new monitor series. I auditioned many different setups through the course and at one time I was dead set on getting the Axioms due to the hype I read on here, but I got a great deal on my setup and was thoroughly impressed with the sound. I auditioned against many speaker 2-3 times expensive, some I liked, some I thought were not worth the extra grand or more. Unfortunately I never got to audition the Axioms but do not doubt the quality of the speakers reproduction, it drove me crazy on what to go with, including my girlfriend haha. I have some pictures of the setup which is in my apartment which is very well soundproofed, but I don't listen at ridiculous levels. A question I have is would the QS8's go well with the setup I have. The rear speakers for the Monitor Series is around 800-900 dollars for the pair. I am also looking for an 46" LCD tv and have narrowed it down between the Sony XBR or W series, or the new Samsung, Toshiba Regza, or Sharp Aquos series all with 120 hz. So we'll see which way I go there. I spent 1200 on the speakers with tax.

Good deal on the Monitors. If I hadn't heard Axioms before I heard the Monitor 11s I would have bought them as well. Great sound for the price, just like Axioms.

I think you need to ship(collect through Purolator) me the center so I can do a direct comparison to the VP150 and VP100. I promise to ship it back.

Those Paradigm centers are quite large, I don't think I could even swing one into my HT.

I know thw QS8s will fit in great with the Paradigms, very similar sound.

Glad to hear that you are enjoying your new speakers. That is what this hobby is all about. I would not hesitate to include QS8s as surrounds in your system as they are exceptional speakers.

I also have the 11s with ADP-170s and I can tell you my next purchase will be QS8s. I haven't heard the 5 driver ADP-390 but I have heard the QS8s and they are infinitely better than the 170s (which are actually pretty good, and shall be demoted to system 2: M2/PDR10).

I never did like the look of paradigm speakers with the grills off. When I auditioned them the salesmen tried to take the grill off and the black thing shown on the bottom of your speakers came off and he couldn't get it back on.

I thought they sounded good though.

The center channel that matches those speakers is entirely to big for 90% of the HT's I have seen. The one you got looks much better. Glad to hear you like it.

Hey you got speakers that are good quality that you like. That is the most important thing.
We'll worry about hanging you by the thumbs after our clocks spring forward.

Consider the Axiom QSx series as surrounds. They will disperse sound in an 'awkward' room far better than you think.
Worry about hiding wires later.
Music first.