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#179810 - 10/20/07 01:54 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: pmbuko]
Joe_in_SC Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 307
Loc: Charleston, SC
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Love the entertainment unit. Must be a custom job, right?


Thanks. I made it myself. Woodworking is my other expensive hobby.
_________________________
I started out with nothing & I've still got most of it left
M60 VP160 QS8 EP350
M22 VP100
Algonquins

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#179812 - 10/20/07 02:27 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: Joe_in_SC]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Joe,

That really is a beautiful piece of work.

The combined load of three in parallel like you suggested would be about 3 Ohms. I very much doubt the Denon would have a problem and if it does, it should gracefully shut down the centre channel. If you plan on trying this, start with a lower volume and gradually increase it. Let us know what you find out please.

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#179814 - 10/20/07 02:31 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: Mojo]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
It would also be interesting to try the two M22s in series with the VP100 in parallel with that series pair. Two M22s in series should produce as much SPL as a single 100. This combination will result in roughly a 5 Ohm load.

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#179815 - 10/20/07 02:34 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
From what I recall, the bass was good as well with the Denon. Maybe if I have time I'll switch the cables and bring back memories. \:\)

I will say that with the addition of the monoblocks the bass has improved, contrary to what some will say. It just seems cleaner, tighter, etc. whatever that means. \:\)


Edited by sirquack (10/20/07 02:35 PM)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#179817 - 10/20/07 02:37 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: Joe_in_SC]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
OK, I finally got around to uploading the pics
The M44 after the awfull first try with the WWTTWW design

As they were pointing slightly up and we really liked the sound, we decided they needed to be moved to the shelf. We then had a few heart attacks as we moved them up to the top shelf for a more realistic comparison.

The speakers nearly fell a few times as I tried to prop up the tail ends with some blocks to get them pointing down from that lofty perch. If I were to keep them up there I would use a little rubber strip under that front lip to keep them from slipping.
This configuration truly does have that certain something that the VP series lacks. They appear to be as clear as the VP100 and still play lower than the VP150 but the VP150 had a very slight rumble? to it for some voices but the VPM44(better designation?) was just as deep but smoother. Gandalf's voice came through a little clearer to me than the VP150 but just as deep.

Joe have you tried yours put closer together like in the picture? Any difference? More centered?

A pic of the M22s vertically beside the TV


The VP150 was disconnected at the time but I will try it later today for the VP194. The dual verticals were just not right. The narration at the beggining of LOTR would slide between the 2. Her voice would be on both speakers but would peak on one speaker and not the other, making her voice appear to slide betwen the 2.

I am still searching for my SPL meter, I appologize to all for the lack of technical details during this somewhat impromptu session. We both had a little spare time and Mojo was at this end of town, it just came together rather quickly, but I did just use it the other day.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#179830 - 10/20/07 04:27 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: jakewash]
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Have you tried the M22s horizontal with one above WWT and one below TWW?

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#179834 - 10/20/07 04:39 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: jakewash]
Joe_in_SC Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 307
Loc: Charleston, SC
I did a little center channel experimentation this afternoon. Keep in mind that I'm not as proficient with critical listening skills as some of you seem to be. I used Pirates of the Caribbean, Curse of the Black Pearl. I selected a couple of different scenes, focusing on dialog. I should mention that my center channel is +2dB (personal preference due to years of abuse of my ears). I kept the volume down a bit so I wouldn't have to ask Mojo to buy me a new receiver.

1. VP100 - good basic center channel. I never had any issues with this speaker until I tried some of the other configurations. I don't have a VP150, but I suspect it would be an improvement over the VP100. For all tests, this speaker was directly above the TV and aimed slightly down at the listening area.

2. Vertical M22s - Notwithstanding what Mojo and Jakewash decided, I found this to be a big improvement over the VP100. The sound was much fuller and richer, and seemed to fill the screen. I didn't notice any significant degradation as I moved away from the sweet spot. I tried the speakers pointing straight ahead and then toed in slightly. Toeing in made a small but noticable improvement at the sweet spot.

3. VPM122 (Vertical M22s + VP100) - WOW! Adding the VP100 made a huge difference in the depth and clarity. The screen seemed to be enveloped in sound. All of the individual speakers completely disappeared. This was my favorite configuration by far.

4. M44 (TWWWWT) - I found this arrangement to be distracting, partly due to the look of it, but the location of the speakers was much more evident than with the VPM122. It was better than the VP100 alone, but sounded a little harsh and punchy. Separating the speakers was more pleasing than with them pushed together. Could it be because they were aimed slightly up rather than directly at the listening area?

5. VPM144 - Adding the VP100 helped considerably, but I still found myself focusing on the equipment rather than the sound (to quote a resident expert). Compared to the VPM122, I was underwhelmed by this arrangement.

I'll stick to the vertical M22s just because it's much easier for me to make the weekend changeover. I also have to try the VPM122 cranked up a little more when I get braver.
_________________________
I started out with nothing & I've still got most of it left
M60 VP160 QS8 EP350
M22 VP100
Algonquins

Top
#179839 - 10/20/07 05:18 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: Joe_in_SC]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Thanks for the input. I don't suppose you were able to use an SPL meter to adjust the levels as each configuration does give you differing levels. We obviously didn't as I am still searching for mine.......

Our issues with vertical M22s could be an effect that only shows up with that movie and/or my room dynamics or possibly they were too close together?

For the VPM44 were the speakers resting at the front edge of the stand? There might have been some reflections happening. The angle could have a detrimental effect as well.

I figured the VPM122 would be the best as the VP100 fills the void we heard and should eliminate that phasing effect.

I also find the VP100/VP150 top and bottom to be very enveloping. The VP100 cleans up the 150.

I may end up keeping the VP150 after all and use it in a VPM172 or ist a VPM194? set up and sell the VP100....Naw too much fun switching things around to sell. Have to stop listening to M62s and get some movies going to try the 3way center.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#179845 - 10/20/07 05:55 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: jakewash]
Joe_in_SC Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 307
Loc: Charleston, SC
I considered that there might be some reflection with the M44. The countertop on the base cabinets sticks out quite a bit in front of where the speakers were. Because they were laying on their tapered sides, the speakers were angled up a bit, so reflection was probably minimal.

I didn't have time to do and SPL readings, but you're right, there is definitely a difference in the levels with the different configurations. I'll play around with it some more when I get time. I want to try some music rather than just a movie. There may be some bigger differences with music vocals than spoken dialog.

Like you, I plan on keeping all the various speakers because they're just too hard to part with.
_________________________
I started out with nothing & I've still got most of it left
M60 VP160 QS8 EP350
M22 VP100
Algonquins

Top
#179854 - 10/20/07 07:06 PM Re: M22s, VP150, VP100 as centres...oh, and M44s [Re: JohnK]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: JohnK

I tried and agree with your "M44" findings in 7. If dual horizontal M22s are used, the better configuration is TMMMMT, which can be said to be somewhat analogous to the TMMMT of the VP150. I didn't think that there was a compelling reason(especially considering expense)to prefer it to 4.


I would have to agree with John. I have not heard the VP100 specifically but i have heard other centres in our home system with the same configuration.
The wider VP150 with end tweeters provided a much wider soundstage and better off-axis presentation than the smaller, driver limited versions with only a single, centre tweeter.
I did not like the M22 as a centre channel either but i am surprised you did not hear any real differences b/w the VP100 and VP150 especially off axis.

The expense of two M22s for this recommended purpose is a bit much. One must also note the extra power issues required to wire and run it.

Sounds like you had a fun time playing with the configurations though. I tried some nifty things awhile back like a vertical VP150 and putting my EP350 on hockey pucks.
I really do not recall why, but i do have pics somewhere.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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