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#186741 - 12/05/07 02:15 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: pheare]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
I have always been a great fan of the floor standing speaker. Bookshelf speakers are great for bedrooms, home offices, garages, etc. For me, home theater's will always sound best with a floor standing speaker. I wish I could dump my VP150 for a third M80 (and may do that in the future).

The reason is the male voice. I would rather have the entire male voice come from one speaker, as opposed to it being split over to a sub. I also own the ep500, and it is an awesome sub. But I am one that does not like the sub to handle the male voice.

With the M60's you can set the crossover to 60 Hertz and not have to worry about the sub dealing with the male voice.

I am sure others here will disagree, but that is my preference.

Paul
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paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#186745 - 12/05/07 02:41 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: Worfzara]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
You don't hear voices coming from your sub do you? I know the male voice sounds more accurate on the VP150 than the 100 but to insinuate that the male voice drops low enough to come out of the sub......I just don't know, I have never heard anything resembling voices out of a sub.
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Jason
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#186748 - 12/05/07 02:51 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: jakewash]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
The typical male voice frequency is between 85 and 1555 Hz. A really deep male voce like James Earl Jones aka Darth Vader, could be even lower. If you set your crossover to 100 Hz, which you might be temped to do with the M22's, you would get voice out of your sub. This will make sub placement even more critical.
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paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#186774 - 12/05/07 05:59 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: Worfzara]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
100hz with M22 isn't needed, they are good through to 80 and slightly(barely) lower. I agree 100hz is just too high for a center
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Jason
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#186813 - 12/06/07 09:24 AM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: jakewash]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
I don’t believe that 2 M22's with a crossover set at 80 Hz will have the same presence and lower end definition as 2 m60's with crossover set at 60 Hz. This is just physics, a bookshelf speaker with two 5-1/4 woofers can't possibly move as much air as a floor standing speaker with dual 6-1/2 drivers and a single 5-1/4. Even though the M22's can reach 60 Hz, there is now way they would sound as good as the M60's in that lower range. So going the M22 route you will be asking the sub to do more work (the nice thing about the EP500, is that it is more an up to the task).

However, if you are asking your sub to play the higher frequencies 80 Hz, the placement of the sub becomes that much more challenging. That in itself is a reason to go with the M60’s and a crossover set at 60 Hz.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure the M22' is a great speaker (it should be, it comes from Axiom) and the Corvette is a great car, but it's not the McLaren F1.

If you have the room and the budget, get the M60’s, you won’t be disappointed! And if you can, figure out a way, get a 3rd as your center speaker.
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paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#186828 - 12/06/07 11:22 AM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: Worfzara]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
My M22's were crossed at 80hz when I used them as fronts. I had them for several years that way. I can't recall any situation where I thought 'gee, that guy's voice is coming from the sub, that sounds bad', even when I had a less-than-stellar sub. That includes plenty of movies with actors with very deep voices including James Earl Jones, Jean Reno (french guy, The Professional, Ronin, etc), Christopher Lee, and Michael Clarke Duncan (huge guy with probably the deepest voice I've ever heard, from The Green Mile, Armageddon, etc). A properly set up and calibrated system will blend seamlessly.

Again, for movies, I really don't think the crossover points for the L/R mains matter very much because the vast majority of the dialog will be mixed to the center channel. Unless, of course, you've got your system configured to do a phantom center channel.

It is absolutely true that M60's and M80's move more air than M22's. Absolutely true that M60's and M80's have a wider dynamic range, are more musical, and are more versatile than M22's. But for MOVIES only in in a smallish-room, I really don't think there's a whole lot of difference between M22's + EP500 and M60's + EP500. I just don't think there's enough dynamic musical material in a movie to make a difference, unless you only watch musicals or something. ;\)


Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/06/07 11:32 AM)
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#186834 - 12/06/07 11:54 AM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
You bring up some good points that make me ask some questions.

If the male voice can get to 80 Hz and your subwoofer is set to 100 Hz why wouldn't you hear voice out of the sub?

Is is because the LFE of DTS and DD don't send voice info to the sub?

What about HT in a box or Bose systems with tiny cube speakers, that don't have any bottem end at all. In this case, the LFE must support the lower voice frequencies, right? Would setting the spakers from Large to small have an effect on the LFE and sending speach info to the sub?

Anybody know?
_________________________
paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#186840 - 12/06/07 12:05 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: Worfzara]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
Well, the male voice can certainly get down to 80 Hz, and probably below for certain basses, I don't think there are many people who actually talk that low--it takes an effort to get down there, unless you're Barry White. So I'd say that for virtually all movies sans singing (and serious singing at that--most popular male performers are tenors), you're not going to be hearing voices through your sub.
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#186844 - 12/06/07 12:09 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: Ken.C]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3271
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
Human voice is rich in harmonics. The dominant might go through the sub in some cases, but the higher harmonics (the ones that will help you tell where the sing is) will go through your main.
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#186861 - 12/06/07 01:36 PM Re: M22 vs. M60 for movies only [Re: Worfzara]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Worfzara

Is is because the LFE of DTS and DD don't send voice info to the sub?

What about HT in a box or Bose systems with tiny cube speakers, that don't have any bottem end at all. In this case, the LFE must support the lower voice frequencies, right? Would setting the spakers from Large to small have an effect on the LFE and sending speach info to the sub?

Anybody know?


LFE is just that, Low Frequency Effectsand DD and DTS do not include speech in the LFE channel, this is specifically mixed for sounds.

As to the Bose, I know my parents 3-2-1 system in fact does have voices coming out of the bass module, you have to remember that in these cube systems the sattelites do not do any of the lower freqencies so the processor throws everything below their crossover points to this bass module it, remember it is not a sub.

I just watched an episode of Mythbusters and they were trying to extinguish a flame with the human voice, amplified and non-amplified. They used a tone generator and when amplified were able to put out the flame. When they moved to the human voice they had a singing group come in and once again measured output frequency and the lowest voiced singer is the one that did the job at 50hz and doing something along a 'rasberry' at the same time to achieve maximum driver movement in the speaker. He was successful in putting out the flame when his voice was amplified. The singer was working fairly hard to get that low note. I think they measured him down into 30hz range.

Now this adds to the question, when in 2.1 channel do vocals end up going to the sub and we just can not distinguish from all the other noises getting sent to the sub.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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