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#200120 - 03/12/08 04:55 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: Dundas]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
I'm sure Tom et al. are researching it. It would be interesting to see if other Class D amps also have this problem or whether it is unique to the design of the a-1400-8. Regardless, running Audessey should not be a worry for anyone owning this amp.

As for the market going all auto setup and equalization, I doubt that is right. I know Audessey likes to talk that up but I've checked out those programs many times in many different HT systems. I can say every one was screwed up and sounded better without the Audessey settings.

A few years ago I was quite intrigued with them and had long chats with the Anthem engineers about why they were not using auto-equalization in their excellent processors. I was looking at the D1 at the time. Anthem's extensive research showed much the same thing as my observations. All too often listeners percieve a momentary audible change in FR in room as somehow improving sound quality. The basic problem with Audessey and other programs stems from the fact that no receiver/processor around today has the computational power required to run enough iterations while running sweeps. The auto programs that come close are those pro programs that rely on powerful desktop computers and require an hour or so to find optimal settings. That doesn't happen in a receiver auto setup.

To make matters worse, those auto programs introduce considerable phase problems. So you go from having well designed speaker FR and dealing with natural room acoustics to electronically induced aberrations in FR and screwed up time domain. No thanks.

I remain hopeful one day there will be an auto-setup program that gets it right. With the increasing power of small chips that may happen sooner rather than later but its not available today.
_________________________
John

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#200121 - 03/12/08 05:07 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: rmk1]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
 Originally Posted By: rmk1


I'm afraid that the Audyssey doesn't work so why use it theory will not help Axiom sell A1400-8's. Come on John, tell your friend to man up and run Audyssey just to see what happens


It doesn't matter to me about whether that theory sells Axioms or not. \:\) My consistent postion for a long time is that Audessey and auto equalization are just expensive placebos (ie marketing ploys) which certain manufacturers use to sell receivers. Another example of the same problems: you've used the SMS auto equalization I'm sure. Those settings didn't look very pretty did they? I do agree that the amp shouldn't shutdown though from running it.

Now with regards to my friend, I'll see if he is man enough to run Audessey after a few mojitos.
_________________________
John

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#200122 - 03/12/08 05:10 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: jakeman]
rmk1 Offline
buff

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Northern Calif
 Originally Posted By: jakeman
[quote=rmk1]Now with regards to my friend, I'll see if he is man enough to run Audessey after a few mojitos.


You mean a few more, don't you? \:D

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#200123 - 03/12/08 05:12 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: rmk1]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Ok after a few more. You counting?
_________________________
John

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#200124 - 03/12/08 05:17 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: jakeman]
rmk1 Offline
buff

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Northern Calif
 Originally Posted By: jakeman
 Originally Posted By: rmk1


I'm afraid that the Audyssey doesn't work so why use it theory will not help Axiom sell A1400-8's. Come on John, tell your friend to man up and run Audyssey just to see what happens


It doesn't matter to me about whether that theory sells Axioms or not. \:\) My consistent postion for a long time is that Audessey and auto equalization are just expensive placebos (ie marketing ploys) which certain manufacturers use to sell receivers. Another example of the same problems: you've used the SMS auto equalization I'm sure. Those settings didn't look very pretty did they? I do agree that the amp shouldn't shutdown though from running it.


Well marketing hype or sound engineering/programming aside, the guys that sell thousands of units per month (Denon, Onkyo and Marantz) are all drinking the Audyssey Koolaid.

BTW, my settings were perfect for my imperfect space and taste. \:\)


Edited by rmk1 (03/12/08 05:20 PM)

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#200127 - 03/12/08 05:41 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: rmk1]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Glad it worked for you. The only place I use any equalization is for subs and not so much. These days with four subs, I don't use any.

By the way I'm not anti-Audessey, just anti-hype. I'm keeping an eye on their latest product, Audessey MultiEQ, which is supposed to cure time and frequency domain issues and also allows for implementation with a home computer. If that works as suggested I'll be buying it. Until then I'll avoid placebos.

Anyway I'm off to cook some sea trout we caught in the Gulf this afternoon. \:\)
_________________________
John

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#200128 - 03/12/08 05:42 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: rmk1]
haylo75 Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 131
Loc: Kansas City, MO USA
This has become quite an interesting discussion. Based on Tom's statement via Alan, I am now concerned that I have may have damaged to my speakers as I have run the Audyssey setup routine with 8 listening positions at least a half dozen times. I am now using another A1400-8 after having used Audyssey for awhile on a prior A1400-8 and having a channel go bad. Brent at Axiom said that Tom thought it sounded like the failure was heat related, nad I followed up with an e-mail but haven't heard anything back in terms of diagnosis.

I heard distortion out of the tweeters on my VP150 the other night while watching a boxing match on HBO HD. The issue didn't subside even at low volume levels, and I was forced to turn the ReEQ feature on my processor on in order to avoid the distortion. Funny thing was, the distortion was almost exclusively limited to when Max Kellerman was speaking. Maybe he was leaning too closely to his mic and/or the source was clipping.

I've watched some shows and listened to music since that night and haven't heard the issue recur. The issue really sticks out in my head at the moment since I just read this thread.

My experiences with Audyssey notwithstanding, I feel that any amp vendor puts themselves in a precarious position stating that EQ software being integrated by a number of pre/pro vendors is not compatible with their product. Axiom has provided some of the best customer service that I have received from any vendor in any industry, so I for one don't believe they consider the matter settled after Tom -> Alan's statement in this thread.
_________________________
A: Epic 80 * 600 / Integra DTC-9.8 / A1400-8
V: Samsung HL-S6187W / Tosh HD-XA2 / PS3 / Oppo 970HD

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#200129 - 03/12/08 05:47 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: jakeman]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
What exactly are they saying about curing frequency AND time domain issues. Frequency and time are really one and the same since they are related by the speed of sound.

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#200134 - 03/12/08 05:59 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: Mojo]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I love the way Axiom markets products. They'll intentionally design a new product with a "bug" that has seemingly endless engineering implications, deliver a few hoping that someone discovers it, wait until everyone in the world hears about it over the net and then magically release the solution pleasing all owners thereby converting them into Axiom heralds. It's brilliant \:\) !

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#200146 - 03/12/08 09:16 PM Re: A1400-8 [Re: Mojo]
rmk1 Offline
buff

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 46
Loc: Northern Calif
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
I love the way Axiom markets products. They'll intentionally design a new product with a "bug" that has seemingly endless engineering implications, deliver a few hoping that someone discovers it, wait until everyone in the world hears about it over the net and then magically release the solution pleasing all owners thereby converting them into Axiom heralds. It's brilliant \:\) !


Do you work for Axiom? Director of Marketing perhaps?
Talk about shameless self promotion.

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