Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners VP150 Concern

I'm almost ready to pull the trigger, but still have a question regarding the VP150 center channel.

The set-up I'm considering is:
2 - M80
1 - VP150
2 - QS8
It is also looking like I will be using the Emotiva XPA-5 amp.

I have read on other forums and professional reviews about the VP150 being the weakest link in this otherwise awesome set-up. The comments that I have been hearing are, unforgiving, Harsh, poor off axis response, etc.

I also know that if the system is not calibrated properly any of the above comments can occur.

All the other speakers in this set-up have overwhelming positive comments and reviews, it's just the VP150 that I have seen in my research that is of any concern.

For those that have this set-up, what are your thoughts? Again, thanks for your help!

I have read those reviews too and that was the reason why I chose to first buy a VP-150 before anything else. Once I got it, I was immediately convinced for Axiom. I was telling myself: if THAT is the weakest link, what a chain!!! My experience with it (and now I have two!) is only positive. It is true that with certain movies, it is important to have "Re-EQ" or other "Cinema Equalization" otherwise the movie-theater exagerate highs can become harsh.

LOL! Nice comment.

I wonder if Axiom has just not quite perfected the VP150 like the other speakers, or if that is indeed the sound they are looking for out of the VP150.

About once a month, somebody who has never heard a VP150 perpetuates this nonsense.

Why on earth would a strong R&D company like Axiom - one that has been focused on its core business for ~20 years - either knowingly deliver an inferior product or be unable to discern its quality?

I understand people having preferences. What I cannot condone is the notion that Joe Consumer has some kind of insight or wisdom about speaker design that has miraculously escaped the notice of people who have done this successfully for so many years.

Harumph. Need more coffee.

Grumpy Tom!


(you make good points, though)

I have the VP 150, its performance is excellent in my opinion.

Wonderful, thanks for the thoughtful and helpful response to a serious question.

I guess trying to belittle people in order to get your point across seems logical to you to support a great product?

You're welcome. I thought my response WAS thoughtful and logical.

It has never been my intention to belittle anyone. I certainly meant no offense to you. I apologize for being curt.

Can you point me to the "professional" reviews that cite deficiencies about the VP150?

Axiom makes fine products. As a loyal customer, I'm just fatigued from four malcontents on the internet getting more mileage from their opinions than hundreds (thousands?) of people who are quite happy.

Again, I do sincerely apologize for my less than friendly tone.

zzyzx,

Your choice of speakers are excellent, and I am sure you will like their performance. I have the M80s and the VP150, and the VP-150 matches the M80s very nicely. Few people complained about a sibilance regarding the VP-150, but I think this has not been an issue for the majority of the owners (? high frequency hearing loss ). Have you considered a local audition with someone who has this setup? You can also buy and return if you are not satisfied.

I didn't see a sub in your selections. Do you already have one or thinking about it?

John

Yes, the VP150 is a very good speaker, but it won't "blow you away" like the M80's & QS8's will. Because the others are SO incredible, they make a good speaker seem merely adequate. That's basically it in a nutshell. Or at least the way I hear things from the centre of my sofa.

Trolls on AVSforum will tell you these things about the vp150 for whatever reason. In fact, they will bash the entire Axiom line calling them harsh, bright, fatiquing. None of these statements are remotely true.

All you have to do is look at the graphs and see they are designed with a FLAT frequency response, and all these statements fall out the window.

Now, the best center is a matching speaker to your left/right mains, however, most people don't want a single m80 standing in front of the screen.

All the professional reviews I've read are positive about the 150's and 100's. I've owned 2 150's and they have been great.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speaker...ions-page2.html



I fully understand that no matter how good the product is, you will ALWAYS get people who have there own agenda and make no sense to the rest of the reviews. In my original post I mentioned that it might be the way the user had calibrated his system to work with the VP150 and that may be the issue. I also said that the rest of the speakers were of no concern. Please understand that I am not currently a owner of Axiom products and have not had the experience with them as you and many others here have had. Listening to speakers are highly subjective as well, maybe to the people have had issues with the VP150, it was just not the sound they wanted from them.

If you are tired of fending off bogus reviews and malcontents as you have stated, it might work to Axioms benefit if you were just to present your positive experience as many other have. I also have not read a BAD review either regarding these speakers, just people preferring one speaker sound to another really. What I'm really trying to do is discount or eliminate any type of negative data no matter how small. If I would have read some professional reviews stating that the VP150 was a must have ,ground breaking,best sounding, ETC.,center channel on the market I probably would not even question the other reviews. As you can see with the M80 & QS8 there is overwhelming information that makes me feel comfortable with purchasing them.







NP, just trying to gather all the data I can, not trying to offend happy Axiom owners.

I have read those as well, but what I get from those reviews is they are looking for less accuracy and more bass?

What I have really latched onto reading all the reviews is that they (M80's) are comparable to the Paradigm 100's or B&W 703's. I like the sound of both those speakers. Those are indeed very fine speakers, but I have a hard time justifying the price when something comparable is considerably less in price with great service.



Perhaps I'm just not reading the terminology correctly regarding the VP150

zzyzx, when I read Tom's comments, they don't seem directed at you, they were expressing general frustration. I realize a lot of forums are filled with people who want to yell at each other, but that's not the case here. In general you'll find this is one of the friendliest forum groups around, so I'm sure we can all get along.

To the question that came up about professional reviews on the VP150, I read the same review you did on Sound & Vision.



I for one agree with this review. I do notice that the sound when right in the sweet spot is fantastic and there is a noticeable difference when moving to the front right or left position. Now, do I think it's "bad" when off-center? No, not at all (and I don't think that's what the review indicates either). It is simply not as good as it is dead center.

I should preface my comments by saying that I do not have a professionally trained listening ear, and I didn't listen to dozens of different speakers before making my purchase. I have to imagine that off-axis sound is always worse regardless of the manufacturer, but I didn't listen to enough other speakers to tell you how much better or worse Axiom is than average.

So, in summary of a long post. The VP-150 sounds tremendous when listening in the sweet spot. It still sounds quite good when listening off-axis, though to me there is a noticeable difference. This does not affect my happiness with the speaker. I would buy it again (and may in fact do so in the future to add a second below my screen at some point in the future)

Happy shopping! I'm happy to answer more questions if you have them.

zzyzx, have you thought about using a bookshelf speaker as a center channel? I realize this may not be plausible because of size and/or placement issues, but I'm just trying to offer a different angle.

I just read the entire review you stated above, and I don't see any statements regarding deficiencies in the 150?

I can actually hear dialog now without turning up the volume. My previous center speaker did not accomplish this. It matches my M60s very nicely in sound. My soundstage is just about perfect. Sound comes from everywhere, not just from point left right or center. I don't notice it being bright or producing sibilance unless the sibilance is already in the sound track. When it's there in the recording, I can confirm it's coming from the source as I often play the same music upstairs on my other pair of M60s with no center.

I'm no golden ear for sure but I just don't know what else I could ask this speaker to do?

Where do you live ZZyzx, maybe an audition of the 150 is in order.

Randy, was that directed at my post or another one? (mega fast posting here is making it hard to know which posts reference which)

no to zz, I just read the review real quick while at work and the only part I noticed was where Ian explained Axiom's theory on the design based on AB blind tests.

In the minus column it states: "Some drop-off in dialogue crispness at off-center seats."

Gotcha Randy... to your point though, you do have to search hard to find that one partial criticism.

I really want to use the VP150 (it will fit my console perfect BTW ), I just wanted to make sure the off axis stuff was no big deal.

The home theater portion of my 8,000 cu ft room is about 16ft wide by 30ft deep, and I only have 1 150 that works great for all seats in The Plex.

Yes I agree with the friendliness and also excellent information provided here, I was just a bit taken back by Toms comments



Excellent, it's good to know it's a center channel effect rather then a some type of design issue.

I'm pretty close (5.5 feet) and all the positions on the couch have great service from VP150. For music, there is a slight advantage to be dead-center, but that might not even be related to the VP150!

Thanks!

Nice set-up!

Hi John,

I'm still not sure on the sub, I have a 15X20 living room that flows into the kitchen as well as a pitched(8'-14') ceiling. I have been looking at the SVS PB13-Ultra with interest though

I'd think that the performance of the VP150 - especially relative to lobing and off-axis response - would be HIGHLY dependent upon room acoustics.

Thanks for reminding me about the S&V review. I've been a subscriber for years, and apparently just blocked that part out
As the VP150 is a pretty non-standard configuration and the testing was not done blind, I can't completely discount the notion that the reviewer was subconsciously influenced.

Only way to find out is in your room with your ears.

Again, mea culpa. I will tell my friend at work that "Mister Grumpy Pants" has been admonished for the day.

We should only allow Tom to post after his morning cup of coffee.

Anybody use the VP150 with the M22's?? Its the only thing missing in my system.

After I finish the bathroom reno with deep soaker tub, granite sink and travertine flooring.....the VP150 is next!!

zzyzx. Take what others post about speakers they did not choose with a grain of salt.

Find someplace to audition the M80 ht package for yourself, you will be blown away! I was for both music and movies. Though I have to admit that I didn't move around to check out the 150. Couldn't get my jaw off the floor long enough to!

FWIW. I just had a running conversation over at audioholics with a guy who started off posting that the M60 vinyl looked crappy, was sometimes harsh and had a weak center.

After some back and forth conversation, it turns out that he likes the M60 better for music than the system he bought, the speakers he got were real rosewood and he thought the center for the system he got was far superior to anything on the market.

So, in reality he thought that the M60s were a very good speaker and the vp150 was just fine, but had I not asked questions, it would have ended up as another one of those Axioms arn't good posts. (where the heck is that rollyeyes smily??)

Stop back peddling Tom.

I think the vp150 souds great...

zzyzx, I would buy the full sytem try it out and if you truly do find an issue with the VP150 then you can return it and try to find another center that will be better and still fit where you want it to go. BTW, good luck with that, any center that does better than the VP150 is much bigger in the size, especially in depth and the ones I looked at were also much taller.

The idea of a bookshelf center works very well and eliminates the off axis issue, so if you can, I would try the M2 or even dual M2s, if you have the space and are truly concerned with the off axis issue, I have measured about a 1.5db drop in SPL going about 20-25deg off axis, but I still find the clarity to be about the same. I think it is just the volume drop that gives the impression of a lack of clarity. It's kind of like when comparing speakers of similar quality, if one speaker is calibrated higher than another, the louder speaker is usually deemed the better sounding one.

ctown, have you forgotten already, I have both VP centers and used them with the M22s and both work great.

All I saw was the M22's with the VP100, then you upgraded to the VP150 and now M80's with VP150 and the sub quest that never ends.......

I didnt think you were running the VP150 with the M22's??

I did for awhile, during the big comparison phase and the difference is subtle, but both sound great as they have the same drivers.

I am one of the trolls in the AVS and other forums who has posted about the VP150 not being able to keep up with the M80s. I don’t see this as much as a complaint about the VP150 as a compliment to the M80s.

My issue with the VP150 is what Randy alludes to in his comment:



No dedicated center speaker (enclosed horizontal design) is ever going to keep up with the M80s. Anyone who says that thier favorite brand dedicated horizontal center speaker (AV123, B&W etc…) sounds as good as there full range mains is just saying that there mains just don‘t sound full range. So maybe it’s not fair for me to say that the VP150 is weak compared to the M80s when the fans of other brands won’t admit as much about there speakers but I think people who want information deserve honest opinions. And yes this is just my opinion.

Most people probably won’t have any issues with the VP150. I’ve noticed on many movies the about 50% of the center channel information blended into the left and right mains so even close up the VP150 blends well with the M80s. It’s mostly in the movies where there is no blending of the center into the mains I can really hear the difference in which case I usually run a phantom center which simulates having an M80s center by playing the center channel through the mains.

I think my biggest problem is that I’m in a small room and sit close 6.5 feet from the front speakers. This tends to exaggerate the sonic differences inherent between the M80s and VP150 and the sonic differences resulting from there dissimilar placement. I think sitting further away and having the speakers further apart will eliminate much of this by allowing them to blend more. This is why on several occasions in other forums when people have questions about what Axioms to buy for a small room I would recommend getting three M22s or M3s across the front with a good subwoofer. The exception would be if they want to do lots of stereo listening or are trying to future proof for when they move into a larger room. Also I would still recommend a M22 or M3 center for anyone who can fit it only because they go deeper and will therefore likely blend better with the M80s. They're also a little less expensive.



For those who report hearing comb filtering due to the VP150 design this is an interesting read.



http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Acoustics%20a...all%20Rooms.doc

I hope this helps and I haven’t inflamed anyone’s passions.


Dean

Z, it is in fact a "design issue", but certainly not one unique to Axiom. Vertically configured driver arrays give wider and smoother horizontal response than does a horizontal array. Flip that MTM up on end and listen to the improved dispersion. Again, if there's room for it, a vertical center speaker as similar to(or identical to)the mains as possible should be considered. If there isn't room, you use what fits(or use no center speaker at all).

I use M3s (above and below) with my M80s and fnd them to be a perfect match.