Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Axiom’s Newest Speaker: The In-Ceiling M3

Outdoor Speaker Placement

Speaker Placement: Unusual Room Layouts and Elevating Speakers

Wall'O'Fame
Greetings fellow Axiom owners...
HG Rosewoods Part 3
Who's Online
2 registered (Hansang, Socketman), 48 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
13310 Members
11 Forums
22849 Topics
403766 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17754
pmbuko 16268
SirQuack 13323
CV 11168
MarkSJohnson 10856
Meanwhile On Facebook

Hurry - sale ends Sunday!

Get a Gift Card Worth 20% of Your Purchase! Save hundreds!

Got your new In-Ceiling speakers yet? #atmosready http://axiomaudio.com/m3-in-c...

(y) Can't wait for the next evolution of surround sound to go mainstream!

Page 5 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#207958 - 05/12/08 06:09 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: tomtuttle]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
I wish I could have been there, I would have really enjoyed testing the setups and meeting you guys. It sounded like it was a lot of fun!
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

Top
#207967 - 05/12/08 07:35 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: tomtuttle]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
did you guys ever play both of the subs together?
_________________________
-David

Top
#207973 - 05/12/08 08:02 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: terzaghi]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
No, but funny that you ask, I was just now looking for enough Y-splitters to give it a run. (thus far, I'm one short)
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

Top
#207975 - 05/12/08 08:03 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: myrison]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
daisy chain the svs sub from the ep600.
_________________________
-David

Top
#207979 - 05/12/08 08:19 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: terzaghi]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Sorry, I wasn't really typing what I meant... I just need more cables period. But yes, I found another cable and ran them together. (my teeth now hurt from the combined effect)

To do it justice, I'd have to spend a ton more time running them together, but I could tell that just by turning the phase on one to 180 and stringing them both together, room response in different locations is much better. With just one running, it's very hit and miss depending on which couch you're on.

My wife jokingly told me at one point after all the time I've spent comparing to keep both, but I suspect she didn't really mean it. \:\) There is only so much floor space in my room.
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

Top
#207982 - 05/12/08 08:28 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: myrison]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8280
Loc: Tacoma
Shoot, all that space below viewing height between the front row and the screen is just wasted anyway. \:\)

Ladies and gentlemen, the EP600H Ottoman.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

Top
#207999 - 05/12/08 11:09 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: Mojo]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
I spent some time today researching ABX methods for this listening session as I wanted to quantify the subjective differences as much as possible between these two subs. In order to derive statistically significant results that chess would be happy with \:\) , I'd have to do the following for music and then again for movies:

1. Compare with at least four different independent variables (ie. 4 subs or 3 subs and no sub),
2. Conduct at least 4 listening sessions with 4 people in each,
3. Conduct at least 16 trials per two-pair combination of independent variables for a total of 6 combinations and 96 trials per listening session. This is a total of 384 trials,
4. Each of the 96 trials per session would last at least one minute for a total of at least 96 minutes. More realistically, two to two-and-a-half hours would be required per session,
5. The participants would have to comprehend detailed instructions prior to their arrival,
6. The participants would have to complete four forms during each session,
7. The environment would have to be low stress with no time constraints.

While I think an exercise like this would be very revealing, finding the people to make this kind of a listening commitment has turned out to be tough.

So instead, we will have to live with the usual subjective evaluations from Mojo and friends \:\) . I'm hoping to post my comments before Sunday and then others can join in next week.


Did i hear my name somewhere? I love the numbers Mojo. Did you run a power analysis after you were done? Oh, waitaminute...
;\)

Our SVS vs. Axiom test was not quite as blind (we got a bit lazy that late night), but i was still glad we set it up the way we did.
I've been more curious about wanting to hear an EP500 vs. my EP350.


Edited by chesseroo (05/12/08 11:09 PM)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#208705 - 05/20/08 11:15 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: chesseroo]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Well, after a few weeks of direct testing and comparison, I have made a final decision.

I listened to many different movies as well as a lot of music and in the end I found the notes I was taking on the differences between the two subs to be very similar to what Mojo experienced. In my room, I found the 10hz tuning (with two plugs in) to give the flattest response, and by far the best extension below 20hz (which is to be expected given that this is the design of the port plugs)

At extremely high volumes, I found the SVS to be capable of playing slightly louder and deeper. The notes that the SVS hit were in many cases tighter and almost always had less lasting resonance. The lasting resonance from the 600 is what I believe creates the "warm" sound that a few others have described. It is indeed warm and enveloping. Envelopment is the best description I can give for the general experience I've had with the 600.

In some cases, the ability of the SVS to hit harder and without resonance was nice, but in most cases, I found that I preferred the warmer Axiom sound. The few exceptions to this (and in these cases they were dramatic) were on source material that hit extremely low. Examples:

  • the server room scene in the movie "The Pulse." I believe this is ~10-15 hz sound.
  • a select few of the deepest rumbles in U-571's depth charge scene
  • the War of the Worlds pod emerging scene where they fire their lasers into the running crowd.

On these scenes, the SVS was clearly dominant. It hit low and monstrously hard. Both subs had a downside on these scenes, however. The 600 consistently put off a strange rattling (almost a chirping) sound in these scenes. This could only be heard in moments of extreme bass that were not surrounded by other noises. The Pulse scene is a perfect example... it is loud, low bass, with almost no other ambient noise. A very challenging scene.

The SVS's downside in these scenes was that because it does not have a DSP controlling it like the Axiom does, at high volumes it "bottomed out" and the distortion from the driver overextending was obvious even over the extreme volume of the rest of the sound from the movie scenes. Choosing either this or the "chirp" of the Axiom driver is a hard choice... The trick was driving the SVS just to the point of distortion, at which point it produced amazingly good sound.

When not listening to scenes with abnormally low and loud bass, I found the results of the two subs very hard to distinguish and honestly am not sure whether I would be able to tell a difference in a blind test. A possible exception was running the SVS in sealed mode (all plugs in) during which I noticed a bit more "slam" or "punch" that we've been talking about in the past. It was subtle in most cases, and for a few songs, a lot better to my ears.

I also had two other buddies here for the weekend during which we spent 2-3 hours up here doing A/B testing. To their ears, in blind testing, they preferred the Axiom to the SVS in about 8 out of 10 tests. Of the 10 tests, I preferred the Axiom in 4, the SVS in 1, and on the rest could not tell a difference.

I purposely told them nothing about either sub in advance, and interestingly, their comments too focused on the "warm" surrounding sound of the Axiom (or the "brown sub" as they called it) versus the "black sub." They occasionally described the SVS sound as "flabby" compared to the Axiom which I thought was interesting. I believe what they were hearing was the distortion that became evident at higher volumes, but am not entirely sure. Steve (WhatFurrer) mentioned this a few times as well while he was here the week before comparing the two.

So.... in the end, what did I decide? Well, I think it should go without saying that it was not easy, and that these both are truly amazing subs. If I'd never heard both subs side by side, I would gladly have kept either in my home theater and know that I'd have been extremely happy with either in the long run.

In the end though, I decided on the Axiom. The main reason? Surprisingly, in the end, because I didn't notice a huge difference in performance between the two, one of the main decision factors was aesthetics of the Axiom versus the SVS. (I can almost hear the whispers of "heresy" from the crowd when reading that after all this work, the looks of the sub were a deciding factor!) The Axiom is an attractive box that matches the finish of my mains in high gloss cherry and also takes up a lot less floor space. The SVS is a plain (albeit well-constructed) black box that is just plain ugly by comparison and is a lot harder to hide in the room. SVS came and picked up the PB13 today for return shipping, so my sub comparison saga is at an end. It was a fun series of tests to perform, but in the end, I have to say that I'm glad it's over. \:\)
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

Top
#208709 - 05/20/08 11:30 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: myrison]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7400
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Nice comparison, Jason! Thanks for taking the time to report your findings to us. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it.
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

Top
#208710 - 05/20/08 11:31 PM Re: Axiom EP600 vs. SVS PB13-Ultra [Re: myrison]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4800
Loc: western canada
 Quote:
In the end though, I decided on the Axiom. The main reason? Surprisingly, in the end, because I didn't notice a huge difference in performance between the two, one of the main decision factors was aesthetics of the Axiom versus the SVS.

There's no heresy in that statement.
Frankly of the few subs i've had the chance to A/B over time, many were very similar in LFE production and some to the point where you could only hear mild differences by turning off all other speakers and listening critically. With all speakers on, it only covers even more of the subtle differences.

Aesthetics on the other hand can play a big role in one's enjoyment of the speakers. I may love the sound, but i would NEVER own something that looked like this:




Edited by chesseroo (05/20/08 11:32 PM)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
Page 5 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.