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Measuring Speaker Cones.....
#216079 07/23/08 09:40 PM
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Can't find this (at least not definitively) when Googling:

Anyone know how a speaker cone is measured when looking for a replacement? Yes, I'm open to any help from someone who works for (or owns) a speaker manufacturing company and is likely to know the answer fer sher!

Is it the White line measurement (the cone itself)? or...

The Magenta line measurement (including the surround)? or...

The Green Line Measurement (outer mounting ring)?

I have some old Design Acoustics speakers (Audio-Technica) that are no longer made but would be great for my workshop if I replaced the woofers....


TIA!!!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216080 07/23/08 09:54 PM
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I am not a "fer sher" kind of guy, but I would bet dollars to donuts that any after market drivers will have specs for the drill holes to use as a guideline. If I were buying a replacement cone, I'd look for that spec within a particular cone size and wouldn't rely on the cone size spec as definitive (for the reasons you suggest above).

Now, for someone who's not guessing to chime in...

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Capn_Pickard #216082 07/23/08 10:18 PM
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AFAIK, it's the purple line.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216085 07/23/08 10:41 PM
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I remember the Design Acoustic speakers rather fondly. I had the PS30 system years ago, I really liked them and wish i would have kept them.

I think Ken is right.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Wid #216088 07/23/08 11:14 PM
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I thought you were just supposed to replace the foam surround part thingy. Not that I've ever actually gone that route myself.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
tomtuttle #216089 07/23/08 11:15 PM
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I think that's something you can do, but I haven't a clue how. I know my parents have paid a fair amount of money to have it done on their speakers.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216092 07/23/08 11:44 PM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
I think that's something you can do, but I haven't a clue how. I know my parents have paid a fair amount of money to have it done on their speakers.


Its a relatively simple procedure, You basically just remove the old surround and glue the new one on. Although you may or may not have to cut off the dust cap and shim the voice coil in the gap otherwise it can become off center and rub. The last time I put new surrounds on a pair of drivers I did not have to do that. Parts express sells refoam kits. They can also help you select a new driver that would work well in your speakers if you did not want to refoam them.

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216099 07/24/08 01:15 AM
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
AFAIK, it's the purple line.


Ken, it's clearly magenta.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
St_PatGuy #216162 07/24/08 02:25 PM
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Thanks for the suggestions!

I hadn't considered replacing just the foam....but my next round of questions would have been along the lines of "Now how do you pick a replacement driver that won't be 3dB less efficient (and therefore "quieter") than the original", etc... I guess if I just replace the foam, I don't have to worry about driver specs!

The Design Acoustics "Point Source" series sounded pretty good. They were relatively deep cabinets with a comparitively small front baffle with the idea of providing needed internal volume with a "near" placement of woofer to tweeter so as to be closer to a "point source" design. I'm impressed with the internals now that I took a driver out.

I'm looking for something for my workshop and I was thinking....don't laugh.... about these simply because the two overriding factors are "inexpensive" and "louder than a woodshop".

OK, ok. I asked you not to laugh!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216164 07/24/08 02:34 PM
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How much louder could a woodshop be if a woodshop could shop wood ?


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Murph #216168 07/24/08 02:41 PM
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Joyce says "CHOP wood" would be funnier! \:\)

But excellent retort!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216177 07/24/08 03:04 PM
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Sorry, I assumed you did more than just chopping in your shop, but perhaps it does consist of just an axe and a hungry woodchuck.

You artists can be funny like that... ;\)


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Murph #216178 07/24/08 03:12 PM
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LOL! \:\)


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216179 07/24/08 03:13 PM
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 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Joyce says "CHOP wood" would be funnier! \:\)


By the way, who's Joyce to decide what's funny? I laugh at her attempt to be funny!

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
CV #216180 07/24/08 03:15 PM
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Nice to be on the other end of that exchange for once, eh?


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
medic8r #216197 07/24/08 04:43 PM
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P.S. ;\)


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
medic8r #216202 07/24/08 05:26 PM
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Magenta?!?! The line is clearly Maginot!

Mark, first I laughed. Then, I thought, that's a pretty big cabinet for the price. Then, I thought, you could replace the woofer - or all the drivers - if it really sounded bad. Or maybe even put a new, more powerful amp in it. Or just engineer your own powered monitor from the ground up! That's the ticket!

Or maybe some wireless over-the-ear headphones. Hearing protection and tunes all in one.

I just love Mark's little projects.

Refoam em! And take pictures!


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
tomtuttle #216204 07/24/08 05:34 PM
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I can't seem to find the link right now, but most drivers are measured according to the basket size and it has very little to do with the actual cone size, otherwise Axiom's 5.25 would a about a 3" driver.


Jason
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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
jakewash #216207 07/24/08 05:36 PM
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Ah, so a Basket Case, then?


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
tomtuttle #216223 07/24/08 06:36 PM
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Zzzzzzzz...

Huh? Wuzzat? Did I hear the Bat-siren?


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216267 07/25/08 01:04 AM
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Mark, as Jason points out, cone speaker drivers are measured by the outside diameter, i.e., your green line. The Axiom 5.25" mid-woofer measures 5 1/4" across.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
JohnK #216278 07/25/08 03:27 AM
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Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me Mark could have taken a driver with a diameter of know size spec, and measured it himself to see what that spec corresponded to?

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
pmbuko #216284 07/25/08 03:45 AM
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No! That would be wrong!


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
pmbuko #216286 07/25/08 04:12 AM
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And besides, what if a properly calibrated ruler wasn't available?


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
JohnK #216300 07/25/08 11:57 AM
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Smarta**es.

You know that Axiom gets love from me, and I'm NOT saying that I don't trust them. But, there are lots of speakers out there that claim an 8" woofer, while the reviewer notes it's 7" or something similar.

There seems to be lots of confusion on the subject, as Googling for it brings up many different answers. I just want to know what the "official" measurement is in the industry.


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216303 07/25/08 12:30 PM
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 Quote:
But, there are lots of speakers out there that claim an 8" woofer, while the reviewer notes it's 7" or something similar.

Exactly. Because the metal frame adds .5" all the way around. \:\)

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
pmbuko #216311 07/25/08 03:09 PM
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 Quote:
Smarta**es


Which is obviously better than dumba**es, but not quite as evolved as wisea**es.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
tomtuttle #216313 07/25/08 03:21 PM
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Through a typical day, I am all three.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
medic8r #216321 07/25/08 04:34 PM
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 Originally Posted By: medic8r
Through a typical day, I am all three.


Holy Trinity, Batman!

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
CV #216323 07/25/08 04:39 PM
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UN-holy, actually.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
tomtuttle #216324 07/25/08 04:40 PM
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Stop Robin my thunder.

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
CV #216325 07/25/08 04:41 PM
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Oh, Jeeeeez, here we go......

Everyone hold on!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216330 07/25/08 05:09 PM
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I was hoping that Alan will drop by sometime and contribute his knowledge to this thread and answer Mark's original question. I am not as hopeful anymore but certainly enjoying the wise cracks. Perhaps Alan is as well.

I am surprised that a standard similar to measuring tires does not exist for speaker drivers.

John


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
ihifi #216337 07/25/08 05:38 PM
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Warning:
I tried to help out by measuring my wifes cones.

let's just say that didn't work out very well for me.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216344 07/25/08 06:32 PM
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Hi Mark,

Generally when driver sizes are specified, you use the purple line, so the diameter includes the foam surround, as KCarlile and others have already noted.

Sometimes I've noticed that manufacturers interpret driver dimensions rather broadly and include the widest possible dimension to the outer edges of the basket.

While it may be fun to buy kits to add new surrounds to drivers whose foam surrounds have deteriorated, don't expect the speakers to perform anywhere close to their previous standards. The elasticity/damping of a driver surround is carefully specified during its design and re-foaming can never hope to duplicate those standards.

It's certainly OK to get an old pair of speakers working again, but in my view, nostalgic memories of cherished old speakers should remain that way. Besides, I've found that when you drag a pair of those much beloved old speakers out of the closet (I have a fair number of them) and put them into a controlled double-blind A/B comparison with really excellent modern speakers like Axioms, many of the old speakers sound truly awfu and very colored. It's astonishing the progress in speaker design and fidelity that have taken place since the 1960s and '70s.

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
alan #216345 07/25/08 06:42 PM
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My brother restored jukeboxes and found that there's a thriving business there re-coning old jukebox speakers (and refurbing their amps).


Alan -- any thoughts on how long foam surrounds are good for? Ballpark 10 years? 15?

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
anthony11 #216346 07/25/08 06:54 PM
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Hi Anthony11,

Re-coning old speakers for jukeboxes and the like is fine.

The type of foam surround that a lot of manufacturers back in the 1980s, including Axiom, began to use seemed to last about 10 or 15 years, but it also was influenced by the climate and humidity. A competitor of Axioms who shall remain nameless introduced a very large subwoofer that used a 15-inch driver and discovered that purchasers of the product who lived in the Caribbean found that the foam surrounds disintegrated after a year or so of use.

Nowadays, virtually all quality manufacturers use a rubber composite or butyl type rubber that should last many decades.

Regards,
Alan


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
alan #216348 07/25/08 07:00 PM
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Yep, it was kind of scary seeing how non-precision those things were, and of course they're not anywhere near linear.

Now, if I could only find someone who could fix my SMC-1 \:\(

Glad to hear that modern surrounds have an increased lifetime -- that may help with the ever-popular WAF in justifying my Axiom purchase.

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
alan #216351 07/25/08 07:14 PM
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 Quote:
It's astonishing the progress in speaker design and fidelity that have taken place since the 1960s and '70s.

I'll certainly agree with that statement. My first speakers were a pair of Advents, considered one of the best value priced speakers of the time. In todays $ they fall between the M22 and the M60, probably closer to the 60. I am willing to bet that the M22 far outperforms those old Advents.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
fredk #216353 07/25/08 07:30 PM
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Wonderfully illuminating as usual, Alan. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.

john


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
ihifi #216429 07/26/08 03:45 PM
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Hi,

Thanks, but I think I've been getting too much sun lolling about up here at Axiom.

I just took a ruler to the Axiom M80s, and the 6.5-inch woofers measure exactly that to the outer edge of the metal basket. So do the 5.25-inch midrange drivers. So ignore my comments about woofer diameter extending to the edge of the surround material.

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
alan #216430 07/26/08 03:53 PM
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Heh heh heh heh... guess the question was more difficult than I thought, Mark!


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216431 07/26/08 04:22 PM
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I miss Jack and his supply of raspberry icons. \:\)

Thanks for the response Alan!

I'm just looking to put something cheap in my workshop, and these were in use daily in my studio until I heard some woofer farts a month ago and pulled off the grill covers to notice the foam. They weren't, and in a workshop certainly won't ever be, for critical listening.

Of course, this still leaves me unsure of replacement sizing. I wrote to PartsExpress 3 days ago, but no one has written back.


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216432 07/26/08 04:29 PM
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Well, what are the diameters that you see? It's more likely a 10" woofer than an 11", or a 12" instead of an 11". And certainly much more likely a 10" than an 8.5".


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216445 07/26/08 05:37 PM
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It's not that easy.

5".... 5 1/4".... 5 1/2".........

I'm good. I'll wait to hear back from Parts Express or I'll just call them...


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216595 07/28/08 08:20 PM
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You could always buy more than one and return whatever doesn't fit.

I am shocked that they don't have a screw hole spec in there somewhere. That has seemed to me to be the key measurement. Everything else should fall into place after that, right?

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Capn_Pickard #216619 07/29/08 12:46 AM
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I went slummin' and bought a pair of these:


They were on sale at Circuit City for 1/3 off & they are way louder than I could ever stand... therefore meeting both my criteria.

Surprisingly, though, they really are NOT bad sounding at all. As a matter of fact, they sound pretty damn good!

My old D/A's are just gonna go out in the trash tomorrow.....


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216627 07/29/08 02:23 AM
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 Quote:
I went slummin' and bought a pair of these:

I hope you washed your hands before going near the keyboard! Goodness knows what you picked up slumming. Why, next thing you know, Ken or J.P. could be at Wallyworld buying an HTIB. \:o


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
fredk #216646 07/29/08 05:09 AM
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That's it, you're banned.







Oh wait, I can't ban people. Crap.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216647 07/29/08 05:10 AM
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It's easy. Just close your eyes!


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
St_PatGuy #216666 07/29/08 10:55 AM
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Sean's right - it's easy!

Especially since you're already wearing the ruby slippers.


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medic8r #216669 07/29/08 12:05 PM
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I was going to make fun of your new "Thunder" speakers by making reference to the old Thundercats cartoon but it would just result in another concerned and confused looking Bert avatar.

Not that I don't like it. I'm just still jealous he found the universal avatar.


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Murph #216670 07/29/08 12:08 PM
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Ack. Bert has killed my Avatar!!! Either the web page is just offline or the frustrated looking Bert has finally cracked and blown up Mediafire file hostings.

Last edited by Murph; 07/29/08 12:09 PM.

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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Murph #216697 07/29/08 02:22 PM
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Sound of the drums
Beatin' in my heart
The thunder of guns
Tore me apart
You've been <boom boom boom> Thunderstruck!


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216698 07/29/08 02:24 PM
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Hey, that's my ringtone!


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Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
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Oooh, something I can rant about... except I really need to go to work. Perhaps I will rant later.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216701 07/29/08 02:30 PM
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Yes, and it's really loud, too.

Also, I let the whole song play before I answer.


***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216702 07/29/08 02:31 PM
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Urgh, Ken has infected my brain with AC/DC lyrics!

I always liked the video for Thunderstruck. Especially the shots of the bald drummer emoting as he hit the cymbals.

In AC/DC news, look for them at a venue near you: AC/DC TOUR NEWS.


Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
medic8r #216705 07/29/08 02:38 PM
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Jedi Kermit is back. Saved by AC/DC lyrics.


With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Murph #216711 07/29/08 03:32 PM
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The Mal-Wart thing is hard to forgive, tho :-/

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
anthony11 #216717 07/29/08 03:51 PM
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Downright impossible, I would think. "Yeah, we're rebels, we'll only sell our music at the biggest corporate store we can find."


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
Ken.C #216726 07/29/08 04:23 PM
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T
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Oh gawd, they really did sell their souls for rock n roll.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
tomtuttle #216751 07/29/08 06:23 PM
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I hate to say it, but they're just one step away from being billed under a puppet show at an amusement park.

Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
anthony11 #216753 07/29/08 07:07 PM
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Nah, they're still huge, just flexing muscles and going for as much money as they can. Guess I can't blame them too much. They're just X-treme capitalists.


Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
medic8r #216754 07/29/08 07:17 PM
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For those of you that think this thread went OT from my speaker purchase, it hasn't.

"Back in Black" was the disc I used to see how loud these speakers can go.

Seriously!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Measuring Speaker Cones.....
MarkSJohnson #216784 07/30/08 01:19 AM
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 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
"Back in Black" was the disc I used to see how loud these speakers can go.

My first thought was of this compilation I picked up back in the vinyl days.

My second thought was of a "Betty" daily strip from the late 90's or early 00's where they used "Roundabout" to audition speakers.

<--- shows his age.

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