Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Where should I improve?

I am currently looking at spending around 2000$ on speakers for my new HT system.

My room is a medium room (11x19) but there is one of the longer wall that is mostly open.

I'm pretty set on a pair of M60, but for that price, I have a few combinaisons I can make:

The base system for me would be a pair of M60's with QS4 x2, VP100 and Ep175.

Now, I can probably improve one of those and stay in budget if I buy "factory outlet".

So, Considering I buy this primarely for listening to Music, music DVD, movies and play my Xbox (mostly rockband, so it's still music), wich should I go for, QS8, VP150 or EP350? I figure that with this size room, loudness shouldnt be that big a problem? I'm leaning toward upgrading the center or the sub but the QS8 gets really good comments...

Lots of options here. My vote would be hold off on the center, run things in phantom mode, and spend the extra on the EP350.

Is music mostly in the two-channel realm?

Although I've never heard the EP350, based on what I've heard from other members, it'll provide good slam for movies while remaining exceptional for music.

I would go with the EP350, as you've just pretty much described my system. I've got M80s, though, so it's a little more unbalanced. I'm quite happy with the VP100 (and a VP150 wouldn't fit...), and the QS4s do the job, although sometimes I think about upgrading those.

The EP350 is stunning, but I have never heard the EP175.

I disagree on the phantom center. I know it's popular with many here, but I found it to be severely lacking, and pretty much nonexistant with even marginally off axis listening (caveat: I tried it with M50s, not the M80s, which have much better imaging and soundstage)

Not knowing the kind of music you like, I would look at the following options:

1. upgrade center - since its critical for vocals
2. upgrade sub - since its critical for lfe
3. upgrade surrounds - only if you listen to music in multi channel mode

Imo the greatest impact for your dollar would be to upgrade to the EP350, I think you would see some improvement going from QS4's to QS8's the same goes for the VP100 to the VP150. But I'm guessing there is a significant difference between the EP350 and the EP175.

I have the VP150 and VP100 not much difference between them. The Qs4 does the same thing the 8s do just not as loudly, again not much difference. I would suspect(never heard one) the EP175v2 to be slightly less powerfull than the EP350v2 (I have heard) and the EP350v3 is substantially better than the v2, IMO. The sub upgrade, to me, is where the best bang for the buck lies.

I concour with upgrading the sub as the most bang for the $$$

Hi Jappy,

I concur with all those here who suggest you opt for the EP350 over the EP175. The 350 really delivers a great deal more deep bass extension and output.

Here's an option you may not have considered to keep you within budget: In a room the size of yours, think about substituting a pair of the M22s instead of the M60s. The M22s used with the EP350 sub will play remarkably loud--not as loud as the M60s--but as loud as I ever want, and my room is 19 x 13 x 9.5 ft. I sit between about 9 ft and 15 ft from the front speakers.

Regards,

So you're 6' tall?

no, that would be 6 ft wide!

OK, so you dont see any problem with the VP-100 and the QS4s? I will be sitting very close to the QS4s so loudness should not be a problem, but my experience with center speaker is very limited.

Also, for music, I like mostly rock (like Led Zepplin). A am a musician myself (bass player) so I do understand the necessity of a good sub! Although, I'm looking more for quality and definition (i HAVE to be able to hear the bassline very clearly in a song with this setup) more than loudness...

Def. go with a biggest baddest sub that you can possibly afford.

I would highly reccomend you buy through the factory outlet. I had a near perfect set of speakers from the FO. The only blemish I found was one scratch on the back of my ep500.

Jappy,

Typically there is not much LFE with rock music. Jazz, Classical instrumental, Rap, Hip/Hop etc., do need greater support. Given the price of EP350, I would look at other good offerings as well such as SVS, HSU, Elemental Designs although the looks may not be that great compared to the Axiom. This would still leave you with upgrading to VP 150 since I personally find vocals through the center channel to be the weakest link in my listening experience. Also I would just stay with the QS4s as you wont see a bigger benefit with the surround experience than the previous options.

mars, what center channel do you have?

There are a number of very good subs on the market now make sure you take all the costs into account. When I looked into it, the only subs that didn't have a significant shipping/duties premium were those from SVS (they have a Canadian dealer). Keep in mind the savings from the HT discount and outlet stock.

Though this will vary depending on the room, I have recently measured and found that the EP350 reaches down to 22Hz in mine.

If you listen to music with pipe organ or synth in it a lot and/or watch a lot of movies, you may want something that reaches a little lower.

I fall in line with the others. Spend the money on a good sub. I don't care if you just listen to classical music, a good sub brings a surprising amount of realism to any music. I also believe that running your mains in a phantom center mode won't be nearly as good as having a real center. I've tried it, it's not the same. But IMHO it would be better to spend the money on mains, sub, surrounds now and 'make due' with a phantom center for a while. Save up for a few months and buy a center when you can. You'll have a better system in the end.

I owned a cheap Kenwood sub for many years. It was what I could afford at the time. I thought it was good, because movie explosions and such certainly had a lot of kick & impact to them. But I always felt I was missing something with music. Even with my M22's, music was slightly lacking. Just never sounded all that great. Good, not great. Then I upgraded to my SVS sub, and it changed everything. It completely transformed the music experience and brought back what was missing. Music sounded far more real to me. You'd be surprised what clean & accurate bass can do for music. And movie LFE effects rattle the neighbor's house. I'm sure the EP175 would be far superior to my old Kenwood one, but the EP350 is commonly regarded around here as being a significantly better sub.

I know we're an Axiom forum here, so I'll stay mostly in the party line and say you ought to buy the EP350. But since money is an issue, HSU & SVS's make some darn good subs too at slightly lower price points. Maybe something to check out.

My system consisted of M22's + VP150 + SVS sub for several years, and I was very happy with the setup. I would bet that you'd be happier with an M22+EP350 setup than an M60+EP175. The m22's are very good speakers. The only drawback is that they require stands of some sort. The Axiom stands are good, but when you factor in their price, the M60's aren't that much more expensive. Food for thought, anyway.

And if you're looking to save a buck, definitely consider the outlet. Many of us have purchased stuff from there, and with very few exceptions, all have been happy (based on chatter here). It is rare that anyone can even tell that they're from the outlet, let alone actually having a problem. My QS8's were from the outlet, and I couldn't find anything wrong with them. They are as perfect as my non-outlet Axiom speakers.

And don't forget that Axiom does do a 5% 'Home Theater' discount when you order more than 5 things at once.

Good luck!

I will echo what many have said. I have M22s paired with an Outlaw LFM-1 EX sub, which many compare to the HSU subs (apparently they were designed by the same person, Dr. Hsu). I've been incredibly happy with it. Until then i was not as in love with my speakers, they just didn't have the "oomph" i imagined. They are incredibly accurate, just too small to make any impact. The difference a great sub makes is night and day though. I would agree to go with the 350 or possibly investigate the other brands, when I got my Outlaw they were having a free shipping promotion, so I got my sub for $600 even, which is a harder deal to beat out the ep350 when you have to pay $70 shipping on top of that.

also +1 for factory outlet, i can't find a THING on any of the pieces i ordered

If I was looking at SVS or HSU, which one would be comparable to the Ep350?

The PB12-nsd from SVS, I am not sure on the direct Hsu competitor, possibly the STF 2 mk3 or the VTF2 mk3. I can vouch for the PB12 though I had one before I bought the PB13-Ultra. The 12 is a very good sub, plays slightly lower than the EP350 and has a slighlty different tone than than any of the Axiom subs, actually Axiom's subs sound slightly different from most subs, very pleasing though. Sonicboomaudio is the Canadian distributor for SVS.

Here is an old Craigsub ranking from another forum.

JL Audio Fathom 113: 103 points
Velodyne DD-18: 100 points
ACI Maestro: 97 points
JL Audio Fathom 112: 95 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo: 94 points
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo: 92 points
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo: 91 points
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points
Axiom EP-500: 90 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo: 88 points
SVS PB12-Plus/2: 87 points
SVS PB12-NSD: 86 points
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo: 86 points
Rocket UFW-12: 85 points (provisional)
SVS PB10-NSD: 83 points
Rocket X-Sub: 78 points
Rocket Tyke: 60 points

I got my HSU STF-3 when the canadian distributer was selling them of. At the time I was wavering between that and the PB12-NSD. Both are good subs, especially for the price.

The rankings are now outdated, too many subs are now improved, but it is a good guideline for some manufacturers to check out. The PB12-nsd Craig tested had an older amp design and the new one is much better.

Would you guys say that a 125$ in difference between the EP350 and the PB12-NSD is worth it? Because that's the difference it would cost me if I take into account shipping and discounts.

Unfortunately, the differences are personal preferance at this point, I liked the punch and lower note the PB12 had compared to the 350, yet I also liked the expansive sound the EP350 has and still maintained a nice punch to it. Is the extra bit of lower play and punch of the SVS worth $125? Only you can decide that.

Is the notion of being able to match your speaker finish with the sub worth anything to you, or are you going with black. A significant other in the formula for input into the matter? My wife didn't care if the sub matched our speakers aesthetically.

Am I correct then in assuming that those qualities that you refer as punch and clarity would make the EP350 better for music (rock with bass guitar and drums, not electronic music) and maybe the SVS would have more punch for movies with low lof frequencies effects?

Of course, my wife would have to approve a black sub and she might insist on a matching set...

I found both had great sound for music and movies, it really is a hard decision. The lower extension of the PB12 does show up a little bit more in movies and the surrounding sound quality of the EP350 seemed to be nicer for music, at least to me. Chances are your wife will tell you which one to get, unless you are lucky like me, as she said "..get which ever one makes you happy"

I am quoting from my previous experience - I used to have a Klipsch rig and progressively found the center channel to be the weakest link when I tried with RC10, 25 and C2.

When I changed it to an Axiom rig, I noticed that VP150 sounded significantly better than the 100. (yes I know its subjective). I am currently setting up a second system with M2 as a center paired with M60s for L/R. Will let you know my impressions sometime at the end of next month.

I am looking forward to your impression of the M2 center, Hutzal loved his. I have yet to hear an M2. I did try one of M22s and quite liked it, the M60 paired with the M80s was an incredible center, just too bad I had no room to keep it that way.

OK,

I managed to listen to many speakers this weekend.

I Listened to some Klipsch and JBL (wasn't impressed), B&W 684's (sonded very good, but a little expensive), Focal Chorus 716 (same, good but expensive) and some mordant-shorts Carnival 8 and deftech BP7006, both in the Axiom pricerange but I thnik the Axioms might be a better speaker for the money...

Knowing I liked the B&W and the Focals, I am considering different configurations axiom speakers and am trying to figure out which system would sound best:

Option A

M60's
QS4 (or maybe 8 if I succomb...)
VP150
EP350

Option B
M80's
QS4 (or maybe 8 if I succomb...)
VP150
EP175

My wife probably wont like listening to room-shaking loudness movies so I figure maybe my money is better spent on M80s than on the sub? However, I really don't need the power of the M80s (my room is 19x11 with one wall pretty pened up toward the kitchen and dining room)...

I called Axiom and they recommanded the VP150 so I'll stick with that.

Also, one of the demo I liked today was with a Paradigm DSP3100 which I figure to be similar to the EP175. I figure with all your comments bigger is better (hence the 350), but the guy from Axiom did say that the 350 would be "less defined" compared to the 175 for bass (told him I like clear bass in music).

I think if it was me, I would say get the 60's and the 350. I can't see the 350 being less defined compared to the smaller, less powerful 175.

Definitely get the 350.

I'll agree with the gang, 60's and the 350. The 60's are great speakers and with the new ep350 would be a really nice system.

I agree, EP350 and M80s. Oh, that wasn't a choice.

Go with the EP350. It that limits you to the 60s, that is a good trade off. I heard (well, really, didn't hear) the 175 in a 20 x 12 x 8 room and was not impressed. Absolutely NO rumble for movies. none.

The 350 is a better bang for the buck than the DSP3100, I did an A/B/C with the 350v3, the DSP3100 and the 350v2 and I would say the 350v3 has a much better impact for movies, for music you could do either the 350v3 or the DSP3100, once you have felt the realism of a nice sub for movies there is no going back.

And since I am such a huge fan of the M80s I would say, if you can, get them as well. The 60 are a very good speaker but the 80s are that much better. Just as Fred mentioned if the 60's are all you can swing to get the 350 then by all means stick with the 60s and 350, you will not be disappointed.

Not sure if this was mentioned earlier, you will absolutely need a decent amp if you go for the 80s....which will be adding to your costs.

Its a good thing that decent receivers like those made by Denon have decent amp sections in them. Even my Sherwood RD-6500 drives my M80s to earbleeding levels in my modest room.

Go for the 350, for the extra presence a good sub provides in HT.

Well, you've done it Fred, you convinced me (i.e. my wife) to go for the M80s...

As for the receiver, I was looking for an easy to setup sub-1000$ amp (highly considering the Onkyo SR606).

Would you guys say that it's sufficient for driving the M80s? If not, any suggestions?

I have to leave now but I'll definitly search the forums later today for threads on this but your opinions are really appreciated.

My Denon 1804 drove the M80s equally as well as my newish 3808. I couldn't really make out any discernable differences. I would say any amp rated to drive a 6 or 4 ohm load, works just fine as long as you are not trying to turn your house into a rock concert with 100+db on the average.

You should not have a problem with the Onkyo, assuming you don't play it so loud that it goes into protection mode. Many in the past, on older Onkyo's have reported them not able to run long without shutting down. Axiom also does not recommend them. I would look at one of the brands that historically have had no issues.

get the denon 3808 from 6ave.com for $1098 or less if you can swing it. you'll have to call them to get the price. IF not, go for the 2808 from them for $850 ro less

I normally like Onkyo products but not in this case. Look for a Denon, H/K, Sherwood Newcastle or something else known to have great amp sections. Don't take a chance with getting a receiver that may not work for you.

Alas, he's in Quebec.

Congrats! You will be very happy.

Edit: On the receiver, I don't know if anyone has tried that combination, but Onkyo is not known for strong amp sections. There are a few with higher end Onkyos that are OK.

Unfortunately we pay a hefty premium for Denon here in Canada.

Let's not forget the Sherwood Newcastles Axiom is selling. The 872 looks quite good.

I'm looking at a Denon AVR-889 right now... looks interresting enhough, got all the goodies (decoding, etc.) but has the rep of not running ot like the Onkyo.

There's a deal right now in Canada where I can get a free average-performing Blueray with it...

I also got a Marantz SR5003 available near where I live. Heard good things about those also. As for H/K, I have trouble comparing their products to other companies seeing how their power rating are always so low due to the fact that they measure it correctly...

Jappy, of course the bottom line on a receiver(or anything else for that matter)shouldn't be how it's "known", but rather how it is in reality. The Onkyo receivers have had excellent amplifier sections in recent years and the 606 which you're considering is another example of this. If you haven't studied the review and lab measurements in the August HomeTheater Magazine, it would be of interest to you and you might note that it measured at over 150 watts into 4 ohms. If the features and price are good for you, the amount of maximum power available should be as well, keeping in mind that the M80s are slightly above average in sensitivity and therefore require less power.

Do any of you knows if that amp (Denon AVR-889) can handle the M80s reliably? As for most amps I've looked at, they only rate them to 6 Ohms...

That receiver as with most Denon's should have no problem with the M80's,

that Denon should be just fine.

Thanks. I talked to Jean-Claude at Axiom today and he also said that Denons have no problems driving the M80s although if I were to ask Denon they probably would say they dont...

I also considered the Newcastle 772 but they have less HDMI inputs ans BestBuy has a great deal on the Denon with a samsung Blue-ray player that looks good enhough.

Now the waiting game starts...

My discontinued Denon 2805 which is about 5 years old has no issues driving 80's to very very loud levels in my 8,000 cu ft room.

IMO axioms subwoofer design is more setup for home theater type bass than music. I'm no expert, but the magnet on the back is comparably small when set next to a high end car audio style subwoofer. I assume the large magnet (and high power amp) allows deeper, tighter and faster bass. Which (along with something else) I enjoy as often as possible.

So I say, skip the sub and buy some M80s and QS4s. Some day later in life you can get the sub(s).

I think you're wrong, there, J. Axiom's subs are the tightest I've heard for music. I ain't never heard no tight car subs... that said, I know there are some car audio enthusiasts here to pop in and correct me on that.

Like you said you're no expert and neither am I, but basing your conclusion on what you see is very amateur, there is much more to a sub than the total size of the driver, magnet and watts available, the way all of it interacts is the key. Axiom's driver has a very low resistance thus they can get away with smaller amps and magnets. It just takes less power to move them.

Your correct Ken in my opinion. Mr Wright, have you heard an Axiom 350v3, 500, or 600?

I cannot say for other than EP500, but that one is incredible for music. You should hear double-bass, theorbe or pipe organ! It is quite simply superb. It is a very, very fast sub and nearly linear (+/- 1db down to 18hz).

Is that even a sentence?

Aw, don't rain on Ken's parade!

Where in the hell is sentencebot when you need him. lol

I think he's in the corner of hell, sitting next to Prescott Bush.

Well, I finally got my speakers today (couple of weeks early!) and I scrambled in the midst of redecorating the living room (wasn't expecting them so soon!) to try them tonight and wow, even with just the M80's and the sub, they are incredible!

However, My joy of receiving them early is countered with my anger at those idiots at Purolator! They managed to damage ont of the M80 , probably by throwing it on something or bumpint into it with a forklift. I mean, these thing are very well packaged by Axiom. You really have to try hard to damage those in shipping...

Anyway, I'll call it in tomorow and I'm shure Axiom will work something out. They do sound awesome even though the cabinet, and maybe one of the drivers, is damaged a little.

I'll post some pics in the coming weeks when everything is setup as it should.

Glad to hear you like the M80s inspite of the damage. Sorry to hear about the destructive process of shipping. How about posting some pics of the damage, always interested in what transpires during the Purolator process. Thanks

Sorry to hear about the shipping damage,it occcours all too often. Great that you are liking them, enjoy.

Congrats Jappy, an awesome setup indeed! I imagine you'll be discovering all of the nuances the speakers are capable of for months to come. Enjoy the ride!

Well, one quick phone call later and Noreen is sending me a replacement right away!

Axiom's reputation for customer service is well deserved!


I'll post pics of the damage later for those who are interested...

Here are some pics of the damage:

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/jappy_toutou/Axiom/IMG_1895.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/jappy_toutou/Axiom/IMG_1896.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/jappy_toutou/Axiom/IMG_1897.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/jappy_toutou/Axiom/IMG_1898.jpg


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/jappy_toutou/Axiom/IMG_1899.jpg

Thanks Purolator

Appalling.

Many think driving a forklift is akin to bumper cars.



Yikes.

I just don't get how these carriers keep hiring such fine accountable employees. Maybe they should take it out of their checks, that might help.

Sorry for you problems.

yikes! that is a pretty good gouge in pic 1896

At least a replacement is on its way.

I am with you, but you don't exactly get the cream of the crop for $12-14hr and the union would never stand for an employee having to pay for the damages he caused.

At least Axiom's customer service makes up for the shipping deficiencies, hopefully the next speaker will make it unscathed.

I've seen a Dicom employee, after I told him our boxes contained glass jars, litterally throw them in the back of his truck. Gee, I wonder why some clients received broked packages...

From what I have learned from friends in the postal service, slapping a fragile sticker is the best way to get something mishandled.

Sad but has proven true from my own shipping experiences as well.

If you are ever shipping anything fragile, keep the fragile stickers off and make sure the package and contents can with stand a 6 foot fall and about 300-400 pounds of other boxes sitting on top of it!

You should always use sturdy stickers.

Most definitely, they help hold the box together under all that extra weight.


and there is 3500 posts only 6500 to go!

This thread wasn't marked fragile and see, it got totally derailed without much damaged at all.

Put a fragile sticker on it and I am sure it would get broken up or at least lost.

Well, I just came back from my trip to find my replacement M80 has arrived with a big 5-inch wide hole in the box...

... but after opening the box, it seem purolator couldn't break it even though they tried their hardest again.

I did have a chance to hear all my speakers together last night and, after turning off evry audissey and dynamic EQ gyzmos I got, they do sound amazing! I listened to The Beatles love album in DTS and to the balrog scene in LOTR and Wow! It IS like at the theater! (or even better!)

It is amazing what shipping companies do to those boxes.

Congrats on getting things up and running. Which track and which LOTR movie is that scene on?

I'll have to give it a try as I have not re-watched all of the LOTR movies since I added my own Axiom setup.

Jason

The Balrog is in the Fellowship of the Ring, the first movie, and it is about 3/4 of the way through, just before they come out of the mines.

The scene is called "The bridge of" something.

I've watched some more TV tonight in dolby surround and I don't know that I could go back ;-)

I think that is a pretty good scene if it is the one I am thinking of.

Kazad-dun I think is the bridge...although i'm just spelling it funetikly