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#222010 - 09/22/08 04:10 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
What I was thinking about earlier is what is Ninja trying to "change" sound quality wise with the M22v2 with this upgrade? Are you looking to add a "warm" or "laid back" quality like AV123 speakers etc(I do not think you mentioned what you were striving for with the network change)....


We were looking to take care of what we consider to be issues with the design. Indeed this is only our opinion (as well as those Axiom customers that purchased the speakers that subsequently contacted us) but the measurements bear this out. If you look at the graphs, you can see the issues off axis as well as with the impedance. These are not subtle and easily audible. Additionally the ringing in the woofer is taken care of. Our only intention is enable reproduction that is closest to the source (as we can of course).

 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I personally love how detailed and accurate Axiom speakers sound myself and the reason I bought them, personally I would not want them "tamed" down. Thinking about this further I thought investing in an upgrade that is 69% the cost of the speaker itself just does not make any sense to me.


I'm glad you love them; keep them exactly how they are. We are simply providing an alternative for those that want more from the speakers.

I've said it more than once above... you can make this new network for very little money. In bulk, it can be done for $3 each. If you are buying off Parts Express, you are looking at about $25 each. I don't sell that level of network due to the very low quality --> negative effects on the sound.

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#222012 - 09/22/08 04:18 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: tomtuttle]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I think it's easy to get too hung up on the measurements. Especially when we're talking about things like "transparency".

Ninja, I will respectfully disagree with your assessment that the scale on the graphs doesn't matter. You've gone to great pains to measure things, to assert that those measurements have value, and to defend the integrity of those measurements. To then - within the presentation of the findings - skew the scale of the graphs subverts your earlier efforts.


I understand and do agree to a point. The fact that it makes no difference to the measurements should win out in the end in my opinion. I realize that you disagree and I'm OK with that. If I can get another pair to Danny, I will have him re-shoot so they look identical.

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I am amused that Ninja's decision to make a fairly significant change to the crossover point is getting so little play. I'd posit that Ian certainly considered different crossover points for this speaker, and that his research and his measurements led him to prefer the one in place. There's no reason why somebody else might not prefer a different design. I just don't think it shows a great deal of professional respect to suggest that Ian got everything else right about this speaker but forgot to even check to see if a different crossover point might have made a meaningful and positive difference.


No one is suggesting that Ian forgot anything... at least I am not. He chose what he did for very specific reasons and I am certain that those reasons were based on his experience, listening and measurements. I've not suggested otherwise...

As far as professional respect, I believe I have been very respectful despite some rather disrespectful comments in this thread that have been sent my way...

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#222013 - 09/22/08 04:22 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: michael_d]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
Skiing Ninja will be three years old early next year. If it was some clever marketing ploy, I would be working for someone else coming up with these clever marketing ploys and making a hell of a lot more money than I do here.

As far as not sending Ian the XO, I made a business decision to sign an exclusivity deal. It's just business; there is being skeptical and then there is being paranoid...

Again, it would be trivial for someone to order it and mail it to Ian. They can even return it for full credit. If this was BS, why is it so easy verify?

I too do not believe in coincidences... a distinctly human construct designed to make sense in a non-sensical world...

 Originally Posted By: mdrew
I have to admit that I am now skeptical and am wondering if all this was nothing more than a clever marketing ploy. I was in total support of this product and Mr. Ninja until the Ninja and/or fate changed the rules of the game, and his (their) mind(s) to send Ian a crossover for testing.

I do not believe in coincidences. I have yet to actually meet one……



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#222014 - 09/22/08 04:23 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
My quick bullet point notes are listed right on the the product page for the M22v2. Obviously those are only my opinion and YMMV.

Thanks

 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
Ninja would have to have had to listen to both. It would be interesting to hear his take on the "differences" between a stock M22v2 and his modified version.


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#222015 - 09/22/08 04:24 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
I agree... thank you...

 Originally Posted By: Ajax
Not taking a stand either way, I would make two points for consideration.

One: No one is going to buy a Ninja M22 crossover UNLESS Axiom has first sold a pair of M22s.

Two: Though I've not heard a Ninja M22 crossover, I have no doubt that it creates a "difference" in the sound of the speaker. However, "better" is a subjective conclusion. Some may find a Ninjad M22 more to their liking, others may not. IMHO, neither position can, or should, be considered "wrong."


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#222016 - 09/22/08 04:27 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
The problem with that is we don't supply OEM's with product or design assistance. I agree it seems more difficult but in reality it is not. Order. Install. Listen. Measure. Return. Done... and you are out maybe $15 in shipping...

 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I think the best approach for these situations is to get the "o.k" from the engineer/company that designs/produces the speaker and to send them the product for evaluation. Making this process "difficult" for the results the people want that are interested in buying these products (Axiom owners) rubs me the wrong way. If Ian likes the product I am sure there is no doubt that Ninja sales go up for the M22v2 upgrade, if he doesn't then people will remain skeptical like they are now anyways.

All speaker companies (especially internet direct) have followings, look at AV123 for example. MLS has a huge influence on his followers. If he told his people that this is the best thing since sliced bread, there would be plenty of people to buy it. I am sure the same thing would happen if Ian approved it.


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#222017 - 09/22/08 04:40 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: The Ninja]
JaimeG Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 556
Loc: Ashburn, VA
 Quote:

In bulk, it can be done for $3 each. If you are buying off Parts Express, you are looking at about $25 each. I don't sell that level of network due to the very low quality --> negative effects on the sound.

Now that's a measurement test I would like to see.; a $3 'network' compared to Sean 'network' (oranges-to-oranges). Heck, I even would throw in a mid quality $50 PartExp version. I'm sure if the measurements are done, the discussion would deteriorate to something similar as to the speaker-wire debate.
** giving back the Jump-To-Conclusions mat to my wife * *
_________________________
The sailor does not pray for wind, he learns to sail. --Lindborg

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#222019 - 09/22/08 04:52 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: tomtuttle]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16225
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Post of the year, Tom!
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#222022 - 09/22/08 05:22 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: tomtuttle]
The Ninja Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 29
Tom,

That is OK. The name is just a joke anyway... trying to have fun where so much seriousness exists \:\)

Sean

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
I'm not down on Sean (Parque, the Ninja). Sorry, I just can't bear to refer to him as The Ninja any more. ;\)


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#222023 - 09/22/08 05:25 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: The Ninja]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8135
Loc: Tacoma
Mark me down as in favor of "fun". \:\)
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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