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#228549 - 11/05/08 01:21 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7241
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the link Jay.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#228555 - 11/05/08 01:54 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: BlueJays1]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
I do not think anyone here on this forum called his product crap. The same can't be said about them about Axiom. Sorry just had to point that out.

Nobody said or implied that anyone here on this forum called his product "crap" so I don't quite understand your point. And who is "them?"
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#228556 - 11/05/08 02:03 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: chesseroo]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6255
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
 Originally Posted By: Ajax
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
I am presently installing the new crossovers, well they are in actually, and am waiting for another Axiom owner to lend me his M22s for a comparison, hopefully the results will be in by the end of the month

I'll be eager to hear your impressions, Jake. Thanks for doing this.

I'd like to make a few points before Jake shares his thoughts. I feel they are pertinent regardless of what, positive or negative, Jake has to say.

Jake will be giving us his opinion. Nothing more, but nothing less. His perceptions don't mean that you or I would feel the same.

I like, respect, and admire (1) the Colquhouns and everyone at Axiom, (2) the way they do business, and (3) the product they bring to market. I feel they provide one of the best values in audio. But, we all know that there are those who don't care for the Axiom sound. I don't have a problem with that. The same can be said about virtually every speaker in existence. However, I do have a problem when, in order to justify their opinion, they feel it necessary to characterize the product as "crap." We all know that is nonsense.

I have no idea how Jake will feel about the Ninja crossovers. But, I humbly request that we treat his opinions with respect and don't allow this to degenerate into unnecessary bickering.

Thanks again, Jake.

and as always I will put forth the approach that unless these subjective observations are performed under objective controlled circumstances they will ultimately still mean very little

If Jake present his opinions as objective science your point is valid. However, Jake has the right to his subjective opinion and the right to express that opinion and I, for one, am looking forward to hearing his opinion. It is left to each of us to decide for ourselves how much or how little that opinion means.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#228560 - 11/05/08 02:13 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Jeez, Jack, you're fired up and stirring the pot today.

While I do appreciate the repeated admonishments about "opinion" vs. "Science", there are a couple of elements worth noting, IMO.

First, the notion that we accept the information as "opinion only" requires relatively full disclosure about the circumstances under which that opinion was formed.

Second, it is possible if not likely that the crossover will impact the efficiency of the speaker. So, for there to be a relevant comparison (rather than a review), the level matching does become pretty important.

To me, there is quite a bit more burden on a comparison than there is upon a listening session by those familiar with the sound of the original model.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#228561 - 11/05/08 02:13 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: fredk]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6884
Loc: PEI, Canada
While I agree that proper testing procedures are required for definitive proof of audible differences when dealing with the same class of speakers, there are situations where there is such an Extreme difference in quality as to safely make an immediate judgment of preference.

For instance, put a small cube speaker from a cheap HTiB setup up against an M80 grade floor stander??? An extreme example to be sure. True, in this case we are dealing with a modification to just one component without changing anything else like the driver, cabinet, etc. Here there is indeed argument for controlled testing.

However, just to be the devil's advocate..... What if Jake adds in these new crossovers and they change the sound in such a large degree that it is simply unmistakable. Unlikely but perhaps the new crossovers are tuned sooo way off for this particular speaker configuration that it turns them into the tinny sounding equivalent of a tiny cube speaker. Or, to be fair to Ninja, maybe it goes the other way around. Although an improvement to that scale is even more unlikely due to the laws of diminishing returns on a speaker of this caliber.

So no disagreement on the necessity of controlled testing for most situations but lets not say his experiment has no value just yet. I for one, look forward to his comments as he is the only one investing the time and money to do at least this much.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#228563 - 11/05/08 02:18 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Murph]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Tom, agreed, this is about as heated a discussion as I've seen in awhile from the generally fair-mannered Axiomites. (though still quite civil fortunately) ;\)

Call me simple, but I just want to hear what Jay thinks when he hears the speakers. I'm confident he'll do as good of a job as he can to be impartial and create a good controlled listening session and that's about all I can ask for. For me though, I have zero interest in buying these (for one thing, I don't own M22s) so for me it's just curiosity, not anything on which I'll make a purchase decision. Looking forward to it Jay.

Jason
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

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#228565 - 11/05/08 02:25 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Murph]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Murph
......investing the time and money to do at least this much.
Luckily no money, Sean made good his offer to supply the XO's, so I have nothing invested other than my time, which is at a premium these days, but sleep only gets in the way of getting things done;\).
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#228568 - 11/05/08 02:32 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Yes, Jay, many thanks for your time and trouble. Like Jason said, I have absolute trust and faith in you and your ears. Your experience should prove very valuable to others.

So, you know, if you want to listen to them before you get the stock ones for comparison, that would be okay \:\)
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#228574 - 11/05/08 02:46 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4082
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
I was referring to Ninja. IMO he made some disrecptful comments about Axiom in that Axiom m22 measurements thread. Not very professional IMO. Maybe you should give him a lecture too :D.
_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#228575 - 11/05/08 02:47 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: tomtuttle]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Another plus for me in doing this, I was able to convince my wife I needed to move the M80s upstairs till I was done with the comparison. I've always wanted to have them on the main floor for an extended period of time.


_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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