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#228595 - 11/05/08 04:04 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
jakewash do you have any intitai impressions you would like to share of the modded M22 before the testing.


Edited by Dr.House (11/05/08 04:05 PM)
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#228596 - 11/05/08 04:05 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: tomtuttle]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Jeez, Jack, you're fired up and stirring the pot today.

Jeez, Tom, I greatly regret that you perceive things that way. I don't feel "fired up" in any way. Since this thread was initially greeted by some with accusations such as "promotion," "BS," and "snake oil," I thought it reasonable to make the point that there is no need for such excessive (IMHO) defensiveness over someone's opinion. I assure you that should Jay and his friends prefer the stock M22s, I will not be wasting your time telling you his methodology was flawed, his viewpoint is worthless, and that you should feel that way also because, frankly, I don't care which they prefer. I'm just grateful that he is spending his time and money to share his opinion, whatever it may be, with us.

Then it was postulated that, since there will likely be no "scientific" structure to this comparison, any findings would "mean little." I merely pointed out that how much someone's opinion "means" to anyone is their choice. I have no problem with anyone discounting someone's opinion if it doesn't measure up to their requirements. However, I would appreciate not being told how much that opinion should mean to me.

That you consider that to be "stirring the pot" is disappointing.

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
While I do appreciate the repeated admonishments about "opinion" vs. "Science", there are a couple of elements worth noting, IMO.

First, the notion that we accept the information as "opinion only" requires relatively full disclosure about the circumstances under which that opinion was formed.

Second, it is possible if not likely that the crossover will impact the efficiency of the speaker. So, for there to be a relevant comparison (rather than a review), the level matching does become pretty important.

No argument with either point. I have no doubt that Jay will explain what went on. Then we each can decide for ourselves how much importance to place on his opinion.

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
To me, there is quite a bit more burden on a comparison than there is upon a listening session by those familiar with the sound of the original model.

Not sure I understand this. As I understand it, and I could be mistaken, there will be a stock pair of M22s and a Ninjaed pair of M22s being listened to by Jakewash and other Axiom owners. Is that not both a comparison and a listening session by those familiar with the sound of the original model? I apologize for my confusion.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#228598 - 11/05/08 04:23 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
My point about the comparison is that with BOTH pairs of speakers in the same room, there is MUCH more data available than if the same trusted person were simply auditioning a custom set alone. You have available not only the subjective assessment of the custom speakers but also the subjective assessment of the stock speakers AND the subjective differences between the two. Additional data often increases expectations. Heightened expectations infer an additional burden in assessment and analysis.

Jack, I certainly don't want to disappoint you. And I will respectfully decline your eloquent implied invitation to continue an argument for which I frankly lack both passion and time. We're splitting hairs. This is supposed to be fun.
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#228600 - 11/05/08 04:37 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: chesseroo]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
 Originally Posted By: Ajax

If Jake present his opinions as objective science your point is valid. However, Jake has the right to his subjective opinion and the right to express that opinion and I, for one, am looking forward to hearing his opinion. It is left to each of us to decide for ourselves how much or how little that opinion means.

We are not talking about suppression of the expression of free speech or anything here. Hold onto the soap box speeches for the next election.

Nice straw man argument. No soap box speech. I don't believe the term "free speech" appeared in my post. The issue is not whether someone has the right to express an opinion, the issue is whether anyone is entitled to tell others how much importance to place on someone's opinion. Feel free to say how much importance you place on it, and why, but leave my decision to me, thank you very much.


 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Jack, you know full well that in the world of audio a subjective expression of opinion becomes a second person's Bible of authority on what is unequivocally true even though it could not be further from the truth.
For example, aren't all Axiom speakers bright? Because I read that on a forum and this information was posted from a well renowned audiophile who posts there a lot.

What I am saying time and time again is "oh really"?
And I will never stop asking that question so that the "second" person who comes along may think a bit harder or more in depth rather than blindly believing the first subjectively expressed opinion they read on a subject.

the bottom line
help debunk the myths
.
First of all, the statement "Axioms are a bright speaker" is a statement of fact. No, I don't mean it is a fact, I mean it is an opinion stated as a fact and I would, and do, take exception to that. However if someone says I find Axioms to be bright," or "I think they are bright," or "Axioms sound bright to me," I have no complaint.

Are you saying that anytime someone would say "Axioms are a bright speaker" You would step in and say "oh really" in an effort to "debunk that myth?"


_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#228602 - 11/05/08 04:45 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4832
Loc: western canada
hold that thought while I find Tom's hair splitter...
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#228604 - 11/05/08 04:53 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: chesseroo]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Another spirited audio debate! Oh, how I miss the days when this happened every couple weeks. \:\)

Ok, so maybe I don't miss them all that much, but some of my best posts came during that era (imho).
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#228605 - 11/05/08 04:53 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: tomtuttle]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
My point about the comparison is that with BOTH pairs of speakers in the same room, there is MUCH more data available than if the same trusted person were simply auditioning a custom set alone. You have available not only the subjective assessment of the custom speakers but also the subjective assessment of the stock speakers AND the subjective differences between the two. Additional data often increases expectations. Heightened expectations infer an additional burden in assessment and analysis.

Thank you for the clarification. I understand now, and agree.

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Jack, I certainly don't want to disappoint you. And I will respectfully decline your eloquent implied invitation to continue an argument for which I frankly lack both passion and time. We're splitting hairs. This is supposed to be fun.

Tom, if you mean "argument" in the sense of "quarrel," I most respectfully disagree with you. I have profound respect for you and have no wish to quarrel with you.

However, you have, thus far, accused me of being "fired up, "stirring the pot," and now "inviting you to continue an argument," none of which I feel is a fair and/or accurate assessment. I hope you will forgive me for saying that I feel you are mistaken in those characterizations. I don't believe I've made any personal statements about you or my perception of your state of mind (which I could not possibly know) that would incite your wrath. If I have, I sincerely apologize.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#228607 - 11/05/08 04:59 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: jakewash]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Wow! I had no idea how much bigger the replacement xover was than the stock one. I also can see how someone who doens't know any better might think the stock one is "pathetic" (to borrow from the av123 thread) because it doesn't use larger parts.

As someone once said, sure you can have parts that hold more tightly to specs, but deciding where you want to spend your cash in audio is all about thresholds. Will it make a difference to a human ear? No? Then it's not worth wasting time or money on.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#228608 - 11/05/08 05:00 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: pmbuko]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6252
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
And I thought size didn't matter. Silly me!




;\)
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#228611 - 11/05/08 05:16 PM Re: Skiing Ninja offering M22v2 upgrade [Re: Ajax]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Ajax
And I thought size didn't matter. Silly me!
That's just because that is what your wife has told youfor so many years. Huh?.....what? Was that out loud? Sorry.;\)
_________________________
Jason
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