Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners EP800 upgrade advice

Greetings fellow Axiomites...

I've begun dreaming of 12 Hz bass waves, which I take as a sure sign that the upgraditis bug is back in full effect.

As I've done in the past, I'm turning to the forum for advice.

I have two choices... either use the trade-up program with the EP600 I have now, or buy the new 800 at the discounted owner's club price (plus the normal premium to get it in HG Cherry to match the rest of my system).

Understandably, Axiom won't combine the trade-up deal with the discounted price, so it's one or the other.

Scenario 1: Trade-up
This ends up costing me ~$1k before the costs of shipping the 600 back to Axiom from Texas, and I'm not sure what to expect that to cost... Any ideas, $150?

Scenario 2: Buy EP800-no trade-up
In this case, I pay full price, which is a little over 2x the amount spent in scenario 1, but I retain both speakers. I already have 2 subs, one of which definitely underperforms the 600, but does help smooth response in my room. There is no possibility for me to use 3 subs as there's only so far I can stretch WAF, even in my own room.

In scenario 2, it is likely that I could sell the EP600 privately, but for what amount and when, I really don't know. Because of the great deal from the owner's club, I could sell the 600 for a fair amount less than it's worth and still break even compared to doing the trade-up to the EP800 at full price. The downside is that I shell out the money up front and have to arrange to sell the 600 privately, which may or may not be a real annoyance...

I realize this is probably a decision I have to make for myself - but hey, you guys have helped me numerous times before, so I'm asking again. I'm open to opinions and advice.

Thanks.

Jason

I'd buy something nice for your wife instead.

Boo, go away Tom.

That wasn't Tom. I think Mrs. Tuttle got control of the keyboard there for a while.

It would be nice to have an ep600 and an ep800, plus if you keep the grills on it will look like you have matching speakers. but then again who would want to cover up those lovely dual 12" drivers?

Jason, Have them ship the 800 to me in Iowa, I'll send you my dual 350v3's and an SMS-1.

What's that Randy? You want to buy my 600? I've always thought you should have 2 anyway... 3 subs is such an odd number, you really should have 4!

Jason

I would go for keeping the 600, get the 800 and sell off the the Earthquake. A much more expensive proposition but I think it would sound the best.

I hate to say it because of the cost but it seems like eventually you'd want to have 2 subs in that class so why sell the 600 with perfect matching custom finish when you'll probably end up just wanting to buy another one again later.

If you keep the 600 to go along with the 800 you'll actually save money in the long run. Now was that so hard?! (As you see I can rationalize nearly any purchase!)

If you wanted to find out how much shipping would cost, all you have to do is go to a courier's website and type in all the required information. I would have done it for you but you need shipping information. I do this all the time to check out if Ebayer's are ripping me off when quoting for shipping.

With that said I think you should go the 800 route .

Well the Girlfriend didn't go for the layaway option, she didn't go for financing option, and she sure didn't go for the savings account fund.

I think I am going to have to sit out for now and miss the 20%. I will do it later when I can get away with it and nab one from the FO at the normal 10%

I have bought myself a lot of stuff lately (epic 80-500, denon 3808, ps3, toshiba hd dvd, weber summit s470, ect...) but not much for the GF (jewelry, camera) so I suppose she has a point. I guess I better be glad that I was able to convince her to let me get as much stuff as I have already

off to look at diamonds...

Just wait until you get married, it only gets better, NOT.

diamonds are a man's worst enemy.

You know, you haven't done half-bad. I'm sure it will work out at some point.

I'm still debating my approach with my better half... she's given the nod on the upgrade... but not necessarily the _addition_ of another man-sized subwoofer in our media room.

Jason/SK, you guys are probably right... I just have to bring myself around to the decision. There's a very strong need versus want argument going on in my head.

Decisions decisions.

Jason

I only put my suggestion out there because I like to spend other people's money, especially when I have none of my own at the moment.

Well, the advice helps... here's a more positive way to look at your suggestion.

Buying the new EP-800 with the discount and keeping the 600 only costs me ~$900 more than trading the 600 in and having only one sub after the changes. (due to the change in price required to do the trade-up and the shipping costs of sending one 600 back)

Not that I think my wife will agree with this logic, but still, it sounds good when I say it to myself...

Jason

By your logic the 800 only costs ~$900, what a deal!Put the order in right now!

yeah, I just tried to post the same thing but the forums were timing out.

How can you NOT afford to get an ep600 for essentially half price?

You guys are awful (and right). I really should have seen this coming.

I'm traveling on business for two more days... that gives me two uninterrupted days to practice the pitch I'll give my wife on this plan when I get home.

Jason

Could you, I dunno, set up a webcam first or something? Because I've gotta see this.

A slider to the inside. It's the only way.

Take her to White Castle to dine in?

Diamonds come after you have a wife, so maybe a wife is man's worst enemy . I'm obviously single and happy

In my case that was 100% true. Since I chose her, does that make me my own worts enemy?

Good lord, Fred. How evolved is your wort that it has its own enemies?

I like the Ron White routine where he is ruminating on DeBeers advertising slogans, and he admires the truth of "Diamonds: Render her speechless" equating to "Diamonds: That'll shut her up".

Tom, you forgot about the "....for a while" part.

Quite evolved. Or maybe that was a Freudian slip? My ex is but a wart on the skin of life?

Heard this joke recently after one of the big down days for the stock market:

"I lost over half my money...and I'm still married to my wife."

One good thing has come from wives....
I'm pretty sure they are why we invented bars.

I'm lucky though. I have a great one.

It's important to have a great bar.

Ha! Good catch!

Just thinking out loud - why not a second 600? Cheaper alternative and I'm not sure you'd be able to tell the difference between a 600 + 800 and a 600 + 600. Sonically matched?

Hey Ray, thanks for the thoughts. I hope that there is an audible difference between the two speakers... Otherwise it's going to be hard for Axiom to sell them!

I realize across the majority of the frequency range they're going to be similar, but the extension at low frequencies for the 800 looks quite a bit better based on the initial plots that have been released.

Also, with the current owner's club discount the difference in price is < $50, so I think it'd be worth it to give the 800 a spin.

Jason

How large is your room anyway? When I saw the 800 info, I of course immediately wanted one, but the truth of the matter is my single 600 is too much sub for my room (12’ X 16’). Two 500's would be a better option for me than a single 600. You may be in the same boat as I……….separating the testosterone infused “want” from real need.

If thinking about it gives you a stiffie, it's most likely a want unless procreation is involved.

Heresy...

Jokes aside, I know what you mean... there is no question in my mind it's a want. (even if not quite by Peter's definition)

However, my entire HT purchase has been a want, this just continues the trend.

Jason

To follow up on my own comment... I agree that in terms of raw SPL capability, the 600 is more than my room needs too (14x20x9).

However, in terms of low frequency extension, 2 500s wouldn't have the same low-end capability as 2 600s (or 800s), and I do really enjoy the low-end of the 600, and imagine I'll enjoy the lower end of the 800 even more. I suppose if I turn out to be completely wrong I can send it back... there's always that option.

Mmmm. Heresy's.

ha

I think that is why I prefered the PB13 to the 600, that little bit of lower extension.

That's what I keep thinking about too Jason... if I can get that from the 800 (and actually more given the SPL curves posted at Audioholics), and keep the rest of the great qualities of the 600, it seems like the perfect speaker.

With that as my justification, I have just ordered one.

Jason

Congrats on placing the order, I keep thinking about your dilemma and I believe the benefit of keeping the 600 at least for now is that you will be able to hear how the 2 subs sound together in your room, if the combination is that great your wife might be convinced and might relent. If not, you could always put the 600 up for sale later after auditioning the combined impact of the two?

That's pretty much the plan, yes. You nailed it. Ironically, with the way the current discount works, _if_ I sell the 600 myself later, I'd only have to get $1k for it to break even versus doing the trade-up.

Knowing myself, I'll probably end up keeping both of them. I just had to come around to making the decision and getting over the slightest tinge of guilt I was feeling about spending the money.

Fortunately, this was a very good month at work... much better than anticipated, which just seemed like the audio gods telling me that I should buy the 800.

Jason

I need to start going to church. I think the audio Gods are mad at me.

All hail the Audio Gods.....Congrats Jason! Now the wait...........

Congrats Jason.

Awesome news. I'm glad you were able to justify it.

Am I mistaken, or is this the first official EP800 purchase that has been made public on the boards?

Enjoy!

Very good, Jason; and let me be the first to demand: pics!, graphs!

Pigs and giraffes!

Okay; them too.

I'd just like to point out that JohnK is all over his punctuation tonight. Two semicolons in subsequent posts!

Mr. Punctuation Pants..... Oh, forget it!

I was already greatly looking forward to taking many pictures and plotting many graphs... the giraffes will be an added bonus. CV - thanks for not allowing me to overlook them.

In seriousness, I'm really looking forward to seeing how this speaker stacks up to the 600 and what I remember of the PB13 from SVS. There were several movie tracks I listened to back then where the deeper extension of the SVS was apparent.

The deep bass was definitely more palpable on select scenes (like the Pulse server room scene - which is a sub wrecker with repeating "pulses" at ~15 Hz). It was one of the few scenese that caused audible distortion of the PB13 as it bottomed out. The 600 would not do so because it was limited by the DSP, but the sacrifice was far less output. This is admittedly a very rare scene. The same behavior was far less apparent in most other scenes I listened to, but it does make for a great test. Now I too get to play the waiting game again. (though it's far easier this time with a full Axiom system to keep me company)

Jason

Hi Jason,

What is "the Pulse server room scene - which is a sub wrecker with repeating "pulses" at ~15 Hz" and where do I find it?

When I did some early listening tests to the EP800, I had trouble finding program material with deep enough low-frequency content to give the EP800 a workout.

Regards,

Alan

What movie is this scene from?

Hi Alan,

The movie is "The Pulse". The movie (IMHO) is terrible, but as a demo scene for low bass, it's pretty tough to beat.

The scene I was speaking of is Track 15 (on the regular DVD version; there is also an HD-DVD version I have not seen). The track is titled "The Lab." When the girl walks through the door into the server room, there is a thunderous low-LFE pulsing sound (hence the name perhaps) that even at average volumes causes incredible port noise from the 600, which I assume is because it is such a low frequency and mixed at such a high level in the movie soundtrack. On the PB-13, there was not the port noise, but the sub distorted fairly audibly as it bottomed out trying to reproduce the sound.

It remains my ultimate reference scene for low-bass capabilities of a sub. On the upside, because the rest of the movie is pretty terrible, you can usually find this DVD used on Amazon for 1 cent plus shipping (really, you can).

If you get your hands on a copy, please let us know what you think of the comparison between this scene on the 600 and the 800, it would be great to get your first-hand impression.

Jason

I ordered a cheap used copy of Pulse on HD DVD in order to test the EP800s when I get them (as well as an even cheaper used copy of War of the Worlds on DVD). Those two movies get mentioned a lot. Can anyone vouch for more of the movies listed in this thread?

Of course, those are just movies. Anyone know of any really good demo CDs for checking bass? I don't necessarily mean albums that have good bass, but CDs specifically made for showcasing the low end. By the way, Axiom, when are you going to make a demo/calibration CD that you pack in with speaker purchases? *nudge nudge*

"War of the Worlds" should be a good one to showcase your EP800. The low frequencies in that movie are scary.


On Friday I watched "Children of Men" in HD-DVD and felt the bass to be well-done and hard hitting. Only a few scenes with it, but I think that helps add to the impact.


As far as CDs go, I picked this by Michael Murray playing Bach. I like it.

Ooh, I was actually going to ask for a really good recording of pipe organ, but I forgot. Thanks!

And you're right about Children of Men on HD DVD. Some of the audio in that has surprising impact. Really well-done.

CV - of all the things I listened to when comparing the 600 to the PB13-Ultra, I found those two movies to show the biggest differences between the two subs. In WotW, the "Pods emerge" scene and the following 5-10 minutes are just incredible for LOUD deep bass.

Pulse I've mentioned earlier as well, but suffice it to say it's the most punishing subwoofer scene I've ever heard. High volume bass with no accompanying background noise at around 13-15 Hz. The kind of bass that should be felt, not heard. With no ports on the 800, I can't wait to feel it and not hear it. (at very high volumes on both the 600 and the PB13, this scene put out a lot of port noise or distortion depending on the sub)

Even though it is a very revealing scene, you could also argue that it's somewhat meaningless as I haven't ever heard anything like it in any other movie/music/etc. Nevertheless, it's quite fun to see how different subs handle it, especially when the DVD only costs a penny on Amazon used.

Jason

That's a very good point. Still, part of this hobby is looking for those rare experiences, right? I look forward to trying it out.

CV - Did you decide on anything for pipe organ music? I've been meaning to order some as well for a long time but haven't gotten around to it.

Jason

Has anyone watched this scene with a 500 that can comment on how it sounded?

Jason and Charles, besides the Bach recording which Sean mentions, you might also consider another Telarc CD with Murray which I've suggested before, the Organ Blaster , with selections from a wider repertoire, and possibly better as a first purchase because of that.

Thanks, John. I was hoping you'd chime in.

I guess I should've mentioned that that was the only Michael Murray disc I have. You could say it's my recommendation by default.

Well, if you might be interested in another one, the Organ Blaster linked above is a good starter at a good price. The only Bach work on it, the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, isn't duplicated on the disc that you have, and it's one of his most popular works. Better samples, correctly numbered, can be found on the Telarc site .

Very nice. I will give that one a try. Thanks, John!

Thanks John - Organ Blaster is on the way from Amazon.

Jason

Wow.

I didn't know Amazon carried those types of products.

Yes, they do... I remember there was quite a furor over it a few years ago.

Wasn't the 800 supposed to start shipping today or am I remembering that wrong? I e-mailed with Noreen today and was told that they weren't shipping today and she had no idea when they'd start to as they were still in 'pre-production status'.

Jason

I thought it was just a late November thing.

Thanks for the update, I've been waiting with bated breath to receive an email and thought it might have to do with the delay in Canadian to US ship status (they estimate 2 days for tracking to show up on the US side, but last time I got the email simultaneously with tracking activity in Buffalo), looks like it's time to chill.

Your memory is correct, I received an email that confirms that it was supposed to ship today. I emailed Noreen on 10/23/08 and asked if they could ship items as they became available (the FO Qs8s are an estimated 5 week wait and I thought I could at least put the VP150 to good use), however that idea was a nonstarter because Noreen revealed in a return email that you only get the 5% discount if they ship all at once.

In the same email however she stated that they actually take an average of ship dates (I liked that concept) and that my order (including the 800) was scheduled to ship on 11/10/08.

I guess it's yet another example of Hofstader's Law, which seems to come into play on a near universal basis with construction or production schedules:

It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take Hofstadter's Law into account.

The wait is killing me and I'm not even getting one!

The fact that they are in 'pre-production status' does not bode well. That doesn't even sound like they've started yet. I really really hope that is not true.

I'm going to go cry in the corner. Boo hoo.

Thanks for the expression of solidarity.

This will be my first sub, I don't know if I can make it.

I figured the shipment date might be soft, but once I was given a date I was happy because it became so easy to bracket my concern and pretend everything was set, but now the torture is back--and it's megaplied.

Who knew HT karma could be so rough? I could never be an engineer . . .

Hmmm, good point--is that like prototype stage? Like say, the R972?

Hey, now, ease up. You're going to make me cry.

So people were actually told at one time that they would ship today? I knew you had to get your preorder in by today, but I didn't ever see an estimated ship date. I figured I'd have to do some waiting (but hoped against it) because of it taking a while after the preorder cutoff for the A1400-8.

All I know is if I don't get mine before Thanksgiving, I'm not going to celebrate that bogus holiday.

I thought you were trying to get them by Christmas? Did you find a way to pay everything off a month earlier?!

Yeah, I made a deal with my dad. He's paying for them now, and for letting me pay him back, I'm giving him my EP600.

Is your dad open to deals with complete strangers?