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#238383 - 01/06/09 09:07 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: JohnK]
cdy2179 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 13
There is no way my Yamaha can dish out 100 watts per channel to all 7 channels as it claims, It only draws a max of ~570 watts from the wall, it's probably closer to 70 watts with all channels driven. Many manufacturers are known to spec their equipment out driving only the mains but don't list it that way. Sony is known to be really bad about this (Not Sony ES). Harmon Kardon is one company this is very good about giving specs with all channels driven, Their ratings look lower than other brands but they are actually much more acurate.

At this point i'm no longer worried about the sound, i'm sure they'll sound great, but as jakewash points out i'm not sure about the spl. I don't like it ear splitting 100db + or anything, but i don't want it to shut down when all of the other speakers are asked to kick in, (which did happen once on the matrix.... it was a lot louder than normal). I sent an email to Yamaha tech support, they'll probably won't recommend it. I was hoping someone on here may have a similar setup.

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#238388 - 01/06/09 09:21 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: JohnK]
cdy2179 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 13
http://www.productwiki.com/harmon-kardon-avr-254/ This receiver has about the same power consuption as mine, it's listed specs probably are close to what mine can really deliver.

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#238399 - 01/06/09 10:30 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: cdy2179]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7147
Loc: Canada
No speaker manufacturer, including Denon will recommend using a 4 ohm speaker for liability reasons.

I think that the ratings on receivers are loosely based on 2 channels driven. The problem with Yamaha is that, for the lower end stuff, they are hit and miss. This was covered in a recent post here when Alan loft pointed out that one of the 66x receivers delivered considerably less than the implied 100w. In contrast, when Audioholics bench tested (and their bench tests are comprehensive) the 559 it delivered more than the rated 100wpc 2 channels driven on a contiuous basis.

The M60 will go plenty loud. They may not fill up a factory with sound like the 80s, but they will go plenty loud in most average and larger rooms. When I a/b compared the 60 and 80 in a 20x12x8 room neither was playing at near even half power to deliver 85db at a listening position 10-12' from the speakers.

There are room calculators out there that will tell you how much power you will use to reach a given volume at a given distance. In my room, almost the same size as listed above, 65w gives me 12-15db of headroom at average lisening levels of 85db. What that means is that the speaker draw will be 65w ONLY for the 95-100db peaks, and at 85db I am using considerably less.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#238400 - 01/06/09 10:35 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: fredk]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13341
Loc: Iowa
I agree Fred, my room is 30 x 31 x 9 and I had the 60's for 2-3 years before upgrading to the 80's. The 60's filled the cavern nicely with clean, loud music with plenty of room to spare. The only reason I got the 80's is pressure from Wid. \:\)
_________________________
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#238402 - 01/06/09 10:38 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: cdy2179]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6865
Loc: PEI, Canada
While your power computations might be correct and the manufacturer's insinuations might be in question, I am extremely doubtful that any sound track ever evenly demands 100 watts sent to all speakers equally. (unless of course you are already pushing well over a hundred, average, with your mains.)

I expect the workout for the surrounds is extremely light compared to the mains. The sub has it's own amp so is not a concern. I'm thinking that most times it's only the mains and sometimes the center that get pushed hard for anything more than a quick blip.

I guess one exception is if you are using a stereo or mono to all speakers mode on your amp. Most people don't have a need for this, but it's possible.

Our amp experts should verify or debunk my guesswork. I'm OK either way as I'll learn from it.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#238405 - 01/06/09 10:42 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: fredk]
cdy2179 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 13
Thanks Fred. I'm thinking the M60 may be a better choice for me , i just don't want to loose a whole bunch of sound envolopment (I guess that's the word I'm looking for) during movies, my room isn't that big (18'x14') i only sit 13' from my mains, How was the sound comparison between the 60 and 80's when you compared them at 85db? Are they comparable in sound, or is the 80 superbly better?

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#238406 - 01/06/09 10:44 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: Murph]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7147
Loc: Canada
I think you are right. I think the power calculators are based on 2 channel, so your power usage would be sligntly higher if listening 5.1.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#238408 - 01/06/09 10:47 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: cdy2179]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6865
Loc: PEI, Canada
Axiom states that the 60s sound very similar to the 80s but the 80s have just a little bit more bass extension and can go a bit louder. Many owners will tell you that that the 80s begin to have more clarity at lower volumes than the 60s. Many owners on this board will tell you that they are superbly better.

I can only repeat those commonly typed statements as I have 2 sets of 60s and have not heard 80s. As I always say, I can't imagine how my 60s could ever sound better than they do and I certainly have no need for louder as they play cleanly at levels only a deaf man could enjoy, but apparently, the 80s do present improvements according to our resident experts. Someday, I hope to find out for myself.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#238411 - 01/06/09 10:52 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: cdy2179]
cdy2179 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 13
Yall are right, The surrounds don't get near the action the front stage does. I've never had a problem with over current other than once it shut down during a gun fight scene on the Matrix, everything was working hard during that scene and it was much louder than i normally have it, other than that i keep it pretty tame, the wife nor i like it really loud, however i do have to turn it up to hear what's being said at times, I blame that on room accoustics (hand clap test is painfull) and my 270 paradigm center. I'm currently building absorbers for my reflection points (ceiling included), and hopefully a big axiom 150 center, that should solve that problem.

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#238412 - 01/06/09 10:56 AM Re: Epic 60 and a Yamaha [Re: cdy2179]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7147
Loc: Canada
Having done an a/b comparison of the 60s and 80s, I can tell you that you will not loose a whole bunch of sound. In an a/b comparison the M80s give more detail. I hate to use audiophile terms, but the upper end really is more transparent and gives slightly more detail on the M80 and there is noticably more bass. The upper end is a subtle effect though and a sub makes up for the bass.

IMO, for $300 it is a worthwhile upgrade. If you have to add another $700+ for a new receiver, I would stick with the 60s.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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