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#241652 - 01/20/09 03:03 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: grunt]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I don't disagree with any of that. I guess my point is simply that sub+sat takes more work to sound good, where a tower is, normally, going to sound pretty good out the box. But, as you say, the lower you can push the crossover point the better. A sub+sat setup has a high (relative) cross over point, as compared to a good tower. I think (not an acoustician but I slept at a Holiday Inn Express) that holes, peaks, etc at 30 or 40hz are harder to detect than those same anomalies at 80 or 120hz. I think that is why I hear so many bad sub-sat setups. The integration of the two is more easily screwed up.

But yes, with work sub+sat can sound better than a tower of equal quality parts, no doubt. I'm surprised we have not seen the birth of satellite mids as well. Place the highs where needed and aimed as needed, same for mids, same for bass. It is done in car audio every day, and the results in SQ would blow many minds in the home audiophile world. But home P-EQ and crossover functions are drastically price limited compared to that market so I don't expect my idea to take flight soon.
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#241655 - 01/20/09 03:12 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Zimm]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17740
Loc: NoVA
It would certainly be hard to double blind test that; if you're using the same sub, you'd have to be adjusting the crossover between the speaker changes. And audio memory is short.
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#241678 - 01/20/09 05:22 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Ken.C]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6599
Loc: It's all about the location.
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
It would certainly be hard to double blind test that; if you're using the same sub, you'd have to be adjusting the crossover between the speaker changes. And audio memory is short.


That would be interesting, Alan told me that the M22/sub has a very similar sound to the M80/sub. They should in fact, because they use the same drivers and tweeters, presumably without the sub though there would be a greater difference as the M80 also has what? dual 6.5 woofers?
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#241679 - 01/20/09 05:23 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Adrian]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17740
Loc: NoVA
The M80s have an extra tweeter, extra dual 6.5" woofers, and a huge amount of additional cabinet volume. Plus 2 extra ports.
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#241681 - 01/20/09 05:27 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Ken.C]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6599
Loc: It's all about the location.
Yeah, I meant to mention the cabinet size too...although I've heard some speakers from other makers with comparatively huge cabinets (4ft high!) that did not go very deep at all.(I know that's not the case with the M80s though).
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#241691 - 01/20/09 06:45 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Adrian]
BoB/335 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 505
Spoke with Brent at Axiom today and I believe he stated that the "dynamics" could be dramatically different. He specifically mentioned the cabinet size havind a lot to do with dynamics and the extra tweeter adding to detail. He felt the M22/sub is an excellent combo but (and I would like to make this statement precise but I will not doubt fail) (maybe I'll just leave it as "but" so that I don't misquote.)

Would be nice if anyone from Axiom ever visits any of my questions. I feel left out and I am very sensitive!

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#241717 - 01/20/09 09:02 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: BoB/335]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
Out of curiosity I went back to review my original comments on the M22 vs M80 on the day that I did the Axiom Audition.


Here is what I wrote:

Next up, M22 +ep 400 sub vs M80. We started the sub of low, turned it lower, and then turned it to minimum.

Though the winner here was very clear, this was an interesting listen. There was a BIG difference between the vocals on the two. With the M22 and sub, the vocals jumped forward (literally) but were not as clear. ELP track 4 was a different story. The bass REALLY opened up with the M22 + sub. Flipping back and forth was cool. Flip to the M80s, the vocals and upper end open up, flip back, the bass really opened up. What a difference!

M80 definitely wins.

So there you have it Bob. I sure heard a difference between the M80 and M22+ sub. This was a proper a/b comparison as we made sure tha the two systems were volume matched before comparing. I just kept flipping the selector between the A and B channel.

I wonder if you would notice the 'opening up' of the M80s if you were stopping the music to swap speakers.
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#241723 - 01/20/09 09:19 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6599
Loc: It's all about the location.
So basically it would appear that the M22/sub would be a consideration mainly for HT over music, the M80s (no sub) would be the best for detailed music and M80+sub the best of both worlds. Keeping in mind of course that these comparisons are done within the 'family' of Axiom speakers, so that does not mean that the M22/sub combo wouldn't outperform many other brands, just not it's big brother (M80)!! ;\)
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Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#241726 - 01/20/09 09:23 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Adrian]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
If you believe me that would be a logical conclusion. Others seem to view the comparison differently.

I suspect that it would be much harder to identify differences between the two setups if you had to move between two rooms to listen to each one.

I really need to go back to Axiom to try this again. ;\)
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#241729 - 01/20/09 09:27 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: fredk]
BoB/335 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 505
Well I think Fred just about settles it then. I can't go against what he says, can I?

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