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#247248 - 02/16/09 03:41 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: Zimm]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
[quote=dewd]Dave,

I don't know, sounds fishy.


Zimm,
I smell it too. I assumed my wife was cooking salmon for lunch though! ;o)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247250 - 02/16/09 03:46 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: SirQuack]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I would never pass up a chance to meet the Rickster. \:\)


Glad to hear it. I look forward to the prepaid ticket's arrival! Coach is fine. I would feel I was taking advantage of even generous Floridian hospitality with business or first class. But Rick, I do NOT mean to cramp your style or you your reputation! I would never do that. \:D
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247252 - 02/16/09 04:00 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: davekro]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: davekro
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
[quote=dewd]Dave,
I don't know, sounds fishy.

Zimm,
I smell it too. I assumed my wife was cooking salmon for lunch though! ;o)

I hate to be a nay-sayer with zero to back it up, but I have used amps for years in car audio. All 100 w/c RMS amps are not the same, and generally 20 w/c does not move a speaker as cleanly as 50 or 80 or 125 equally clean watts. I get that you seldom use all those watts, but in real world applications I think you reach a level of THD or frequency peaking (or something) that kicks some of this math on its nerdy ass. (Just joking, those with actual knowledge!) Maybe it is explained by the frequency abilities of the amps, or some other factor the math does not show bear out in such easy terms.
In sum, you are wrong because I disagree based on zero citable support. Take that.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#247258 - 02/16/09 04:52 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: Zimm]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
Zimm,
And I for one, appreciate the authority from which you speak. ;\)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247263 - 02/16/09 05:17 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: davekro]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: davekro
Zimm,
And I for one, appreciate the authority from which you speak. ;\)


That's what I like to hear, a little blind loyalty. Science; who needs science.
Although, I am still befuddled by the damn blind test "they" are about to pull out where nobody could tell a $100 amp from a $100,000 amp. But with Photoshop, I can believe they made that up. Hell, Mark has is own arse up on his wall. I can believe anything!

_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#247356 - 02/17/09 12:32 AM VP100's as 7.1 back speakers OK? [Re: Zimm]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
Zimm,
I am fully understanding that elusive chase for dB's. My wife keeps asking if I have 'decided' yet. I say yes... BUT. This process is like aproaching zero... there is always another infinitesimal split/step towards the goal. Zero feels closer, but it is more journey than 'arriving'. ;\)

My latest hair splitting hurdle is questioning my 7.1 back speaker choice. The last choice after speaking to Brent at Axiom, was that QS8's were not the best choice being that their back wall location is 16' behind list. pos. (all other speakers are 12'). Their radiated sound would drop off more with the longer path to list. pos. He thought M2's were best even over M22's. Watching Wall-E BD today, I noticed I was not hearing the backs and I have Bic America V52's which are very close (on paper) to the M2's, except the V52's have a 1/2" twtr vs. 1" and V52's have 90dB vs. M2's 91dB. I raised both by 6dB on the amp to max +12db. They seemed like they might be close to enveloping the list. pos., but not quite there. Now I am wondering again if a dual 5 1/4" drivers with 93dB (vs. 91dB of M2) would gain me more SPL umph from the back speakers.

Actually (2) VP100's would be a better physical and aesthetic fit for my room. If M22's were used, they would need to lay on their sides. Someone on another forum talked about centers in general being a poor choice for rears due to the different crossover frequencies. The M22 and Vp100's seem very close in size with the exact components, but with 3,500Hz vs. 2,700Hz crossover. Any chance Axiom would build a VP100 with a crossover from an M22 ? If so, would that make the VP100's have a noticeably higher SPL reaching the list. pos. ?


Edited by davekro (02/17/09 12:35 AM)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247368 - 02/17/09 07:46 AM Re: VP100's as 7.1 back speakers OK? [Re: davekro]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10856
Loc: Central NH
Dave, are you SURE you really want 7.1? Putting them 16' back is, in essence, like "putting them in the next room" to gain channels that many, under much more favorable conditions, have found to add very little to the experience.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#247388 - 02/17/09 10:13 AM Re: VP100's as 7.1 back speakers OK? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I would second Mark's question. With QS8s on the side, they are going to reflect off that back wall - in about 10 seconds! The point is, you will get a surround image without sound directly from that back wall. Try it without the hassle of the 7.1 setup and see how it sounds. You can always add more speakers, but your set up might require better processing and delay capabilities than the average AVR has to offer. Not sure what you have going on in terms of equp, but in theory you may need a 9.1 setup to cover the gap beteen side and rear. (Ok, now i'm just making numbers up.)
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#247424 - 02/17/09 01:27 PM Re: VP100's as 7.1 back speakers OK? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Dave, are you SURE you really want 7.1? Putting them 16' back is, in essence, like "putting them in the next room" to gain channels that many, under much more favorable conditions, have found to add very little to the experience.

Oh God Mark...
yet another decision brought into question! Crap, will this process never cease?

Coming from the 'too much is never enough' school of thought, your idea feels blasfamous. My zealotry for 7.1 may, indeed be questionable (like many of my character traits). Whereas zealots often have much room to let in new ideas, they are loathe to do so... That said, I will meditate on your alien idea. I GUEEEEEESS at a minimum, I could just leave in place the current Bic America bookshelves (11.25"h x 7"w x 7.25"d, 5.25 bass, 1/2" twtr, 90dB) for the fill it gives to 'almost envelop' the list. pos. and save the dollars and mental uncertainty (mostly this!) of finding the 'perfect' rears for my particular room.

Darn you Mark!
(I reserve the option to thank you profusely later ;o)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247431 - 02/17/09 01:44 PM Re: VP100's as 7.1 back speakers OK? [Re: davekro]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10856
Loc: Central NH
If you want, I can post a photo of the "perfect rear" now, and you can curse me later! \:\)

To expand on one of your points:

Because of the inverse square law, to get those rear speakers that are 16' back to sound "level" with the rest of your system, you're really going to have to crank them up in your amps level controls. Throw in the fact that they're smallish and not as efficient and you're really going to be trying to get some gain!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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