Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs

Two opposing things that I think calls for a well thought out compromise. This great room (w/ kitchen and dining room behind listening area) having ≈ 700 sq', and 6,000 cu', is coupled with an amp on the smaller side (Denon 1909, 90 wpc). So the ability (power wise)to go with large fronts to help fill this large area is limited. I am hoping M60's will do an adequate job as fronts. Sides easily will be QS8's. The Axiom rep. concurred that for 7.1 backs located 16' behind primary listening posistion, QS8 reflectives would not get to listeners well. He recommended M2 (5 1/4" drvr) front firing bookshelves. I was surprised he thought the M22's (dual 5 1/4" drvrs) would not add that much and that M2's would do well there.

I know it's more important for rears to match rears and fronts to match fronts. So the question may be somewhat splitting hairs... How well will the M2 5 1/4" drvrs timber match the M60's (dual 6 1/2" mid/bass, one 5 1/4" mid drvr)? Great that the M2 has exactly the same driver and tweeter as the M8 surrounds. Also, what width apart would be a good choice for backs being 16' behind list. pos.? Current rears are on a shelf in corners. During Audyssey set up, you can tell the corner boosts them in a way that does not blend well.

Thanks, Dave

PS. I wish I would hear from two local people on Axiom's site about listening to their Axiom systems. I did hear from someone 6 hours away. I'll check back with Axiom to verify they sent my info to the correct people.

Have people found that between Axiom and the generous volunteers willing to show their equipment, that people are getting to hear the Axiom speakers?

PSS. ;o) I forgot to mention subs are not on my list because I have three. A Paradigm Servo 15" and (2) 10" KLH's (from long ago).

Dave, I'll add to my reply to your question in the other thread(by the way, that makes it harder to come up with a coherent response)by pointing out that bigger speakers(including Axioms)quite often are more sensitive than smaller ones and so require less, not more, power.

The 6 1/2" M60 drivers aren't "mid/bass", they're entirely bass. The mid-range is handled by the 5 1/4" driver and matches well with the same driver in the M2.

If the back surround speakers in a 7.1 setup are 16' behind the listening position, they should be separated by about that same distance if it's otherwise convenient.

Dave, my room is 900 sq ft or arount 8100 cu ft. I used to have 60's driven by a Denon 2805 (100w) with no problems, plenty of volume from these efficient speakers.

Have you sent a PM (personal message) to the people close to you? Where are you located, and which people did you send to, it is possible they don't come around the forums that much. We all know each other, so we may be able to help if you tell us where your located.

There is no question that the M60 can fill that space with sound given proper amplification, so I guess you are asking if you have enough amp. The answer to that depends on your objectives.

How loud do you like to listen? How far away from the speakers are you going to be when listening? Listening at reference levels (loud) in your kitchen (which I assume is the farthest point from the speakers) is going to take a lot more power than listening at the same volume 10' away from the speakers.

Given that the M80 is more sensitive than the M60 and draws a 4Ohm load, it will play slightly louder than the M60.

Both the M60 and M80 are quite sensitive, so are good choices for limited power situations.

Good reminder on bigger speakers being more efficient, hence louder at a given volume. Given three subs, my fronts and all surrounds being rightly set to 'small' & 80Hz x-over by Audyssey, I see your point on the M60' drivers: dual 6 1/2" 80-200Hz, 5 1/4" 200-2000Hz. M2's: 5 1/4's doing the full 80-2,700Hz, which I guess more importantly closely matches the QS8's 5 1/4's doing 80-2,500Hz. Is it not significant (to timber matching) fronts to surrounds that the 5 1/4" surrounds are not focused on a small freq. range as the front 5 1/4's?


16' separation on backs:
I can do this, but it will put the left rear sandwiched between the top of kitch. cabinets and ceiling (≈ 2" avg above spkr with angled ceiling) and butted against a vent enclosure on one side, with the small space on the other side where ceiling slopes to the side wall about 2' away. Bottom line, this speaker's front grill will not have surfaces to reflect off of except the close sloped ceiling. will th efacct that the 'cabinet' of the speaker is directly next to surfaces on it's bottom and one side?

The rt. back can go anywhere along that sides wall. The next inward opportunity for the lft back is moving ≈2' towards center (on the room center side of the vent enclosure on top of cabinets).

SirQ,
THANK YOU. this is the first I've heard of someone with a large room using M60' and close to my 90 wpc power. This is very reassuring!

My local Axiom owners:
I thought the only way to initiate contact was diectly thru Axiom (which I did on 2/12). I never thought to search their user ID's on this forum. Great idea! I live in northern Calif. in Discovery Bay. This is ≈ 1 hour drive to the east side of the SF Bay Area. The two owners I was trying to hook up with are:
koiman ... Antioch, CA
gnrajagopal ... Fremont, CA

On 2/12 I did get an email from Peter in southern Ca. 6 1/2 hour drive. I don't know why Axiom pinged so. CA?
I'll try searching the two locals above as soon as I finish reading replying to this thread. :o)

Hi Dave, I'm in Oakland, but my audition times are pretty severely constrained, unless you can wait 3 weeks or so.

Fred,
The room distances are:
front of front speakers and DLP screen are 2' from front wall.
main listening pos. is 12' from fr. spkrs/screen.
(surrounds mtd directly to side of lis. pos. and 3' up)
Rear wall is 16' behind list. pos.

I am not concerned about dB levels in kitchen or dining area. I am only concerned with having the list. pos. (12'away) as enveloped as I am able, being limited to 90 wpc and M60 fronts w. M2 backs (I could go M22 backs, but Axiom rep said they would not add much and that the M2's would do fine in this room. ... any thoughts on this?). Side surrounds will be changed from dir. firing WG-150 in-walls (8" bass drvr)to QS8's.

M60's vs. M80's:
I was under the impression that asking the Denon 1909 90 wpc amp to drive a 4 0hm speaker was quite a stretch for this amp. If you know the 1909's specs and disagree, I'd love to hear your take. ALSO having front mains drawing 4 ohm avg when all others (except VP150 at 6ohms) draw 8 ohm avg, would make the front's dominate. I DO NOT want to go there again. I am coming from using huge 15" driver Klipsch Cornwall II's (owned for 26 years) with 100dB sensitivity always dominating my (M2 size) old (90db) center spkr. With all other surrounds @ 90dB sensitiv. as well.

kcallile,
Thanks for the offer. But I sure hope I have already decided, ordered and have gotten (or awaiting factory outlet) speakers by then.

Dave,

I'll jump in here just to reiterate my point I made over at AVS.... I'm not sure going 7.1 with the rears 16' away in a kitchen is the best idea. You won't loose much by going with 5.1.

Also, you are still hung up on the watts thing... Here is a neat calculator to show SPL from various watts/distances. Just plug in the specs from your amp, the speakers, and your room. According to some quick entries, you will be able to get over 100DB (way above reference) using the M60's with your AVR.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

PS - Be sure to add to the watts entry and recalculate to see the effect....

Dave I'm in south Florida and will be home during the early afternoons all week if you want to stop by for a listen?

.

Rick,
Though I appreciate the offer, I can only travel a 1+ hour drive. The five hour flight from Calif. is a bit of a stretch for me.

Dave I thought so, I just wanted to let you know that we Floridians try our darnedest to be hospitable as well.

Rick I appreciate your 'hospitableness'. In Florida does 'hospitableness' include free air fair (and maybe even a per diem)!

Dave you shouldn't worry about having the fronts dominate. Your receiver should have the ability to individually adjust the speakers, giving you the ability to turn the fronts down or the rears up to compensate and balance the levels of all speakers, which is best to do anyhow

I claim tech ignorance on this, but are you sure that calc is right in real world terms. It basically says 20 watts reaches 104 dB. . . I'd like to see that if we are talking about real musical notes from 20 to 20. I know the whole "power doesn't matter" thing is a well settled debate here, but 20 v. 250 yields little change with 93 db speakers. If this is right, you could power an ep800 with a 20 watt amp, yet all compaines are pushing well over 500???
I don't know, sounds fishy.

Dewd,
Thanks for the calculator. I ran across it a few days ago and forgot to back and 'use it'. ;o)
That said, I do not understand what these terms translate too:
1) dB gain from amplifier?
(going from 90wpc to 130wpc only raises this from 19.5 to 21.1dB)

2) dB Loss due to dispersion (distance)?
(Using 12' dist. this remains constant at -11.3dB)

3) dB Gain from sonic reinforcement (multi speakers)?
(constant at 8.5dB)

I get your point on the Sound Pressure Level changing from 109.7db @ 90wpc to 111.3dB @ 130dB. I assume this means my 90 wpc amp has headroom above what I might listen to a loud action movie at.

In their calculator, all the above is based on avg 8ohm imped. The other power hang up ;o) I have had was that my 1909 could not handle the 4ohm M80's. The 1909's specs read:
6 - 16 ohms
90 wpc (8ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, with .08%THD)
120 wpc (6ohms, 1kHz with .7%THD)
I'm not sure but I think these specs say THD increases almost 9 fold when dropping to just 6ohms. I assume distortion increase would even much worse if the 1909 saw a 4ohm load, not to mention a 4 ohm load being detrimental to the 1909. Do I have this correct.
tks

I would never pass up a chance to meet the Rickster.

Zimm,
I smell it too. I assumed my wife was cooking salmon for lunch though! ;o)

Glad to hear it. I look forward to the prepaid ticket's arrival! Coach is fine. I would feel I was taking advantage of even generous Floridian hospitality with business or first class. But Rick, I do NOT mean to cramp your style or you your reputation! I would never do that.

I hate to be a nay-sayer with zero to back it up, but I have used amps for years in car audio. All 100 w/c RMS amps are not the same, and generally 20 w/c does not move a speaker as cleanly as 50 or 80 or 125 equally clean watts. I get that you seldom use all those watts, but in real world applications I think you reach a level of THD or frequency peaking (or something) that kicks some of this math on its nerdy ass. (Just joking, those with actual knowledge!) Maybe it is explained by the frequency abilities of the amps, or some other factor the math does not show bear out in such easy terms.
In sum, you are wrong because I disagree based on zero citable support. Take that.

Zimm,
And I for one, appreciate the authority from which you speak.

That's what I like to hear, a little blind loyalty. Science; who needs science.
Although, I am still befuddled by the damn blind test "they" are about to pull out where nobody could tell a $100 amp from a $100,000 amp. But with Photoshop, I can believe they made that up. Hell, Mark has is own arse up on his wall. I can believe anything!

Zimm,
I am fully understanding that elusive chase for dB's. My wife keeps asking if I have 'decided' yet. I say yes... BUT. This process is like aproaching zero... there is always another infinitesimal split/step towards the goal. Zero feels closer, but it is more journey than 'arriving'.

My latest hair splitting hurdle is questioning my 7.1 back speaker choice. The last choice after speaking to Brent at Axiom, was that QS8's were not the best choice being that their back wall location is 16' behind list. pos. (all other speakers are 12'). Their radiated sound would drop off more with the longer path to list. pos. He thought M2's were best even over M22's. Watching Wall-E BD today, I noticed I was not hearing the backs and I have Bic America V52's which are very close (on paper) to the M2's, except the V52's have a 1/2" twtr vs. 1" and V52's have 90dB vs. M2's 91dB. I raised both by 6dB on the amp to max +12db. They seemed like they might be close to enveloping the list. pos., but not quite there. Now I am wondering again if a dual 5 1/4" drivers with 93dB (vs. 91dB of M2) would gain me more SPL umph from the back speakers.

Actually (2) VP100's would be a better physical and aesthetic fit for my room. If M22's were used, they would need to lay on their sides. Someone on another forum talked about centers in general being a poor choice for rears due to the different crossover frequencies. The M22 and Vp100's seem very close in size with the exact components, but with 3,500Hz vs. 2,700Hz crossover. Any chance Axiom would build a VP100 with a crossover from an M22 ? If so, would that make the VP100's have a noticeably higher SPL reaching the list. pos. ?

Dave, are you SURE you really want 7.1? Putting them 16' back is, in essence, like "putting them in the next room" to gain channels that many, under much more favorable conditions, have found to add very little to the experience.

I would second Mark's question. With QS8s on the side, they are going to reflect off that back wall - in about 10 seconds! The point is, you will get a surround image without sound directly from that back wall. Try it without the hassle of the 7.1 setup and see how it sounds. You can always add more speakers, but your set up might require better processing and delay capabilities than the average AVR has to offer. Not sure what you have going on in terms of equp, but in theory you may need a 9.1 setup to cover the gap beteen side and rear. (Ok, now i'm just making numbers up.)

Oh God Mark...
yet another decision brought into question! Crap, will this process never cease?

Coming from the 'too much is never enough' school of thought, your idea feels blasfamous. My zealotry for 7.1 may, indeed be questionable (like many of my character traits). Whereas zealots often have much room to let in new ideas, they are loathe to do so... That said, I will meditate on your alien idea. I GUEEEEEESS at a minimum, I could just leave in place the current Bic America bookshelves (11.25"h x 7"w x 7.25"d, 5.25 bass, 1/2" twtr, 90dB) for the fill it gives to 'almost envelop' the list. pos. and save the dollars and mental uncertainty (mostly this!) of finding the 'perfect' rears for my particular room.

Darn you Mark!
(I reserve the option to thank you profusely later ;o)

If you want, I can post a photo of the "perfect rear" now, and you can curse me later!

To expand on one of your points:

Because of the inverse square law, to get those rear speakers that are 16' back to sound "level" with the rest of your system, you're really going to have to crank them up in your amps level controls. Throw in the fact that they're smallish and not as efficient and you're really going to be trying to get some gain!

I'm at work right now and do not have links to everything, but a quick search will yield 1000's of results.

Real quick basic knowledge.... It takes double the amount of power (watts) for each 3db increase. So if you get 100db with 90 watts, you will need 180 watts to get 103db. For reference, 3db is generally considered the first "noticeable" increment, with +10 db being perceived as double the volume.

So you can see that with your current AVR producing hearing loss levels at your primary seat, you would have double your power for just 3 db more (you will be deaf either way, so save your money for hearing aids).

Now that is a convincing sales pitch for 5.1. "Get 5.1 or go deaf, your choice." I like it. Or, he could use the analog output from his recevier to power a Bryston or Krell 250/c external amp to drive the rear speakers to match the dB of the fronts at the seat - just don't get caught standing near the rear speakers when a helicopter flies over at 120db at the back wall/center of kitchen!
Seriously, if you really want 7.1 have you considered in-ceiling speakers at a distance much closer than 16'. There are some decent models with aiming tweeters to get the axis off of horizontal. The other benefit is the 7.1 music is still spread to your kitchen area without the WAF problems of putting big speakers in the back. Just a thought.

Or QS-8s ceiling mounted?

My mental image of his room made that option unworkable. Now that I have formed that image, I can't agree with QS8s on the ceiling. Just ignore Mark, he is wrong.

Statistically speaking, you're likely correct!

Mark,
I have already seen your, um, 'ported' rear. No need to repost! ;o) ANd as was mentioned before, PLEASE do not post your front (this is a family thread;o).

Watching Wall-E yesterday was great. It had a lot of extended 7.l tracks to be able to move around the room to see how well my current small bookshelves filled the rear space. Specs wise thes Bic V52's are very similar to the M2's, except V52's have a smaller twtr at 1/2" (vs. 1").
Audyssey on my Denon 1909 had set:
FL +6; FR +5.5; C +4.5; SW +3; SL +6; SR +6.5
SBL +4.5dB; SBR +6.0
The backs were weak at list. pos. at this setting.

To keep the same balance between L&R, I raised both by +6dB to max (for SBR):
SBL +10.5; SBR +12

As mentioned earlier, this felt like it 'almost, but not quite' enveloped the list. pos. from the rear.

In your opinion, (if I am not able to upgrade to your 'rears'), the upgrade to the following would be marginally better by?:
M2's?
M22's (on sides)?
VP100's (oem x-over at 2.7kHz)?
VP100's (∆ to M22's 3.5kHz x-over a no go per Brent at Axiom)*

*I heard back from Brent at Axiom.

Thanks Dewd,
I'll Google those terms.

I'm sorry. Would you repeat that? I didn't hear you...

Zimm, in ceiling 7.1's never even crossed my mind. (amazing because it is a relatively short distance!) I like the idea of not trying to send the rear sound from so far back. Wow, this time I really do respect your position. (though my vision is is not quite back yet)

You are aware, I will now need to search for or start a whole new thread on what kind and the absolute MOST perfect location for ceiling mounted 7.1's. A ton more research. I'm tellin' my wife, heh... talk to Zimm, it's not my fault! (attaches back of hand to forehead with Velcro...already in place, as head tilts back slightly, eyebrows raise beseechingly)

Given his avatar, his dislike of protrusions may be lees than your and mine Zimm. (Mark, "not that there's anything wrong with that!") He, who didn't love Jimmy Durante!

The what is dead simple: a pair of M22s. Just think, you'll be the first on your block.

Well, your insurance company will appreciate that your party guest are not going deaf from trying to get a beer while you blast 190dB from the refig! I had in-ceiling surrounds in my old room. They solved a problem I could not fix otherwise. The all but disappear so the WAF is very high. As far as placement, just pick any distance from a THX or other suggestion. But really the placement will be driven by cost of running wire. If you have a one story your lucky. If not, you will have to figure out some cost issues that will offset the gains from cheaper speakers (no cabinet to worry about) and the direction of the rafters will drive costs.

For what it is worth, I had Klipsh 8" with swiveling 1" tweeter and a mid and high boost/cut and driver and tweeter indp swivel. I highly recommend the angle tweeter on whatever you go with as it lets you bounce the highs as you want to get the right reflection/direct sound. Without a cabinet, bass is a problem, so go for bigger woofers. I almost got the B&Ws. I found the Klipsch on sale and pulled the trigger and was generally happy with them - actually surprised how well composed they were even on 5 ch music. PSB also makes some in ceilings, but i think they are expensive. Speakercraft Aim 8 is also a finalist for me.

Oh yea, Fred, the wife would LOVE a pair of M22's stuck to the ceiling in the middle of the room. ;o) And be careful, Zimm has a queasy stomach today after Mark's suggestion of QS8's on the ceiling in the center of the room.
(Zimm, keep that bucket close at hand. Some here would have you lose your cookies, just for sport! Remember, Doc's just sittin' back with his popcorn enjoy'n the show... ;o)

There is always my Dolby Pro Logic set up from college - put the other pair right behind your head on the back of the couch or on the floor behind you. That my friends is real surround sound.

Zimm, a couple of thoughts stirred up here.
"Ceiling (no cabinet) spkrs have more trouble with bass."
I was concerned that my current in-wall side surr's w/8"woofer were too big, seeing most recommending smaller for better mids in surr's. Though my in-wall WG-150 (WaveGuide) are in the 3 1/2" deep wall (sound absorbant mat behind), I wonder if the play out as a smaller driver? The 1" alum dome twtr is moveable. Maybe I would be (almost?) as well served by not replacing these with QS8's??
http://www.ciao.com/M_S_WaveGuide_WG150W_Speaker__10043963#productdetail

I wonder how a Waveguide or similar 8" woofer, 1" tweeter as ceiling mounted backs might sound match with the existing direct firing side. Then how would those 8" woofer in-wall/ceiling surrounds would match up with the M60, VP150 fronts. Given this info, would I still get better side surr sound from QS8's and add 8" in-ceilings for 7.1 backs? So better timber match with sides and backs at 8" vs. QS8 sides w/ 8" (or other) ceiling backs?
I do have ceiling access, albeit tight, but I have been up there before. Wire routing would be pretty simple, just a dusty belly crawlin' job. Maybe I can get my wife to crawl in their to pass the wires thru...
It seems Axiom does not make an in-ceiling speaker.

This is an exciting new development, yet again! ;o)

Dave, they have ceiling mount brackets for the QS8's, if that "helps"

My experience (in my room, with my ears...) was that going from 5.1 to 7.1 (all QS8's) was not a tidal wave of change. However, going from old, leftover mismatched speakers as surrounds (for the 5.1) to the QS8's WAS a huge improvement.

If you like your current waveguides, then I would move those to the ceiling and use QS8 on the side. I think the QS8 is so good on the sides compared to direct radiating that it is worth the upgrade; as Tom describes the quality is more noticeable than the number. Plus, you are saving on the rears and return shipping is low on those small speakers. If you can run the wires easy, in-ceiling is the way to go. (Not sure your budget, but the Klipsch had fantastic install ease. Cut a circle and that's pretty much it.
As for bass, I was happy with 8", and if you have in-walls already you know the drill. the sound is just not contained so it is harder to generate deep bass. Not a big problem with a good sub, but on 5 ch music, I could tell they were a bit thin. Not a huge problem as it is not a critical listening set up. I would give it a try this way. Less money out, better sound, not speakers on the back wall - win, win, win.

Tom, Zimm,

Thanks for the ideas. Sounds like QS8's are a concensus for 'worth changing to'. I wonder how to go about finding a decent timber match to QS8 sides? Woofer size? I do like the idea of Speakercrafts swivel woofer and tweeter. Zim, any suggestions on a decent price to sound quality in the Aim8 level 1 thru pricey 5's? Or should I look at a smaller woofer? You Guys ROCK!
(I don't care what Mark, Fred, Dewd and Doc say. Loosers every one...) ;o) ;o) :o)

I wouldn't agonize too much over timbre-matching the rear speakers. I would definitely get the qs8's for the surrounds and just install whatever in-ceiling speaker floats your boat for the rears. Vann's often has good sales on the Mirage Omnicans, which I kind of like the looks of. I have some of their inwalls in my kitchen and they sound pretty good, although not as good as a freestanding Axiom

The T2 can be in-ceiling mounted then there would be a timbre match.

Hi davekro,

I've been following this thread and here are a couple of points. Get rid of this idea that matching woofer sizes between different speakers, especially different brands, will somehow creat a better timbral match. Slight adjustments in the crossover of a given speaker create far more audible differences than any combination of different woofers. And I urge you not to use the BIC speakers in an Axiom-dominated system. From my experience as an audio-video magazine editor for many years, in the course of which several BIC models were tested, I can assure you that a BIC will audibly stick out or make its presence known because of inherent coloration.

The reason that Axiom does not make a dedicated in-ceiling speaker is first, that isn't how movies are mixed and meant to be played back and our hearing is much more acute to side-generated and front-generated sound and reflections. Most movies are mixed in 5.1; the decoder will interpolate material for the additional two channels at the rear from the discrete left and right surround channels. Two extra surrounds certainly improve coverage and envelopment in large rooms, however, the QS8s are so effective in their side locations, that often adding two more surrounds yields only a marginal improvement. I don't know why Brent suggested M2s at the rear; if you want 7.1, then add an extra pair of QS8s. They don't need to be 16 feet apart. Ten feet will certainly be enough for ample separation.

Axiom has made provision for mounting a W22 in the ceiling if that's the way you want to go. I also advise against swivelling tweeter designs. After measuring some of these in our anechoic chamber, they had intrinsic flaws large enough that we rejected that design approach.

As to impedance, even entry-level Denons will drive our 4-ohm M80s with no problems so long as you don't drive the Denon into clipping or distortion. The sensitivity differences between the M60 or M80s and the QS8s are not so great that you can't compensate easily with the individual channel levels in the Denon setup.

And in terms of power requirements, I always urge buying as much power as you can afford so there's no danger of exceeding the output limits of your amplifier and damaging the speakers. Your existing Denon should have ample power for very loud playback (95 dB to 100 dB SPL peaks) given your listening distance. If you are into extremley loud (above 100 dB SPL) playback, you could always add a powerful outboard amplifier later on. And has been pointed out, if you want a "slightly noticeable" increase in volume levels (3 dB), you'd need twice as much power (180 watts per channel, assuming your Denon would be driven to near-clipping to achieve 100 dB SPL). To subjectively increase playback volume to "twice as loud" requires ten times as much power.

A note on distortion: virtually all amplifiers have measurably greater distortion driving a 4-ohm load because more current runs through the output section, and it runs hotter. That said, we are talking about fractions of a percent, minuscule levels that are inaudible with music or movie programming. Distortion has to rise to greater levels than 1%--often 3% or more--before it becomes clearly audible. Those levels of distortion do not happen with modern well-designed solid-state audio amplifiers when they are not driven into clipping. They do happen with some tube amplifiers and are quite common with vinyl playback--and it's clearly audible when it occurs.

Regards,
Alan

Great info Alan. I'm not surprised testing of angled tweeters did not yield good results. I would not recommend them for critical listening. But in this case, where in-ceiling is needed and placement may not be optimum, I found (in my case) the ability to aim the surround off a back wall helped increase the perception of distance from the back wall and helped the dominance of a down firing woofer near the seating position. Accuracy, not great, but for surround presence, it helped and here it will be for real fill only with the QS8 taking the heavy lifting. Again, I'd try 5.1 before going through all this, but 7.1 seems be a done deal here.
I have the Klipsch 5800 if that helps you, but the pale in comparison to the QS8s that replaced them.

Alan,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm especially glad I saw your comments before investing a bunch of time researching in-ceiling speakers.

I was surprised the 1909 would be ok with 4 ohm M80 fronts. I had concerns of the heating issue, especailly since the specs in the manual only mention a watts/ ch rating down to 6 ohm. I think I still feel M60's are my preference. The price, 8 ohm rating and I do not know if the dual tweeters and dual mids, may contribute to some perceiving the 80's to accentuate the highs. I have never heard any of these, though I have hopes that Twelly in Newark, CA will contact me after Axiom sent my info to them. Thanks again.
Dave

Hi Zimm,

Thanks for your feedback. Look, I'm not saying that in-ceiling surround speakers can't work. Of course they can; in fact, part of the reason for the QS8's excellent delivery of an enveloping surround sound field is the top-firing woofer and the off-axis dispersion of the two tweeters--a good chunk of the radiated energy from those drivers is reflected from the ceiling in a side- or rear-wall mounted QS8. It's also why QS8s installed about three to five feet above ear level can create a very convincing sense of height on helicopter flyover effects.

However, I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to movie and music playback and the way our hearing system operates. If ceiling-mounted surrounds worked well, they'd be used in Dolby Digital and THX movie theaters--and they aren't. I understand if there's no other solution than using some type of ceiling mount, but I always advise side and rear-wall mounting if at all possible.

Cheers,

Alan

Davekro,

Virtually all AV receiver manufacturers specify not using impedance loads of less than 6 ohms in order to comply with the UL and CSA product testing, and also to err on the side of caution. Some brands include an impedance switch that actually limits the power output and current flow to a lower impedance load to prevent the output devices from running too hot. Doing that also reduces the available power output dramatically into a 4-ohm load.

In the real world, however, some amplifier sections of some AV receivers tend to be more stable than others driving 4-ohm loads, Denon and Sherwood Newcastle being a couple that Axiom has had long experience with. Some other brands, as I've previously noted in the forums, have overly sensitive protection circuitry that immediately upon sensing greater current flow or increased heat from the output transistors, will shut down the AV receiver or put it into "current limiting", a mode that limits power output.

Also, it is not the number of midrange drivers and tweeters that will determine the timbral (tonal) balance of a loudspeaker. Using dual midranges and dual tweeters in the M80 gives it huge power handling in large rooms. It is subtle adjustments in crossover design and driver selection (among many factors) coupled with careful anechoic measurements and listening tests that will ultimately determine the tonal balance and neutrality of a loudspeaker. Over the years, I've tested some small bookshelf speakers from other manufacturers that are almost unlistenable because of excessive treble emphasis and wonky tonal balance.

Actually, in double-blind tests, the M80 is a slight bit smoother on female and male vocals than the M60. These differences are tiny, barely noticeable except in the instantaneous switching between the two speakers. You'll be fine with the M60s in your size of room and as other M60 owners have noted, they are capable of very loud, clean playback in very large spaces.

Also, your notion that sound from the rear speakers has to "travel" a long way--16 feet--to your listening area is not a significant factor. Sound travels at one foot per millisecond, so the sound from the rears in your room would take 16 milliseconds--that is 16/1,000ths of a second--to reach your ears. The setup on your Denon will insert digital delay quite a bit longer than that to prevent your ear/brain from hearing the rear surround signals before the sound from the front speakers.

Regards.

Alan

Alan,

Thanks for the discussion of M60s in my environment.
On the QS8's...
7.1 Backs: Due to the left rear back wall having kitchen cabinets, I'd like to know how a 3 1/2" top clearance (at 6' rt of center and best aesthetically) or 6 1/2" top clearance (at 4' rt of center). These assume mounting so QS8's extend out so their back is flush with cabinet fronts, but flush with cab. top. I assume mounting to back wall between cabinet and ceiling with only 4" above and below AND only 3 1/2' rt. of sound center would be a no go. Right rear wall top clearance could be up to 16". sound wise differing locations is OK, but aesthetically, being closer to left speaker height would 'look' better.

Side surrounds (8' ceiling ht. at wall slopes up to sound stage center 12' in to 10' ht.):
In order to cover the old in-wall covered holes, 13 1/2" top clearance would be best. How far from optimal is that? Since these sides are more listener critical, I'd be willing to place them lower to achieve closer to optimal sound here.
Thanks again.
Dave

[quote=sirquack][/quote]

Sir Q,
I just saw your HT set up. Very nice. What are those ceiling mount brackets for your QS8's? I may need to press the WAF factor and consider mounting 8's on ceiling mid room. (just to make Tom happy ;o)

Thanks, Dave

No argument there, and good info - love to learn the whys of the rules I've heard. This would be a purely aesthetic solution in a less than "pure" set up. For anyone mining this thread for info, I want to be clear, having used both in the same position, the QS8 is in a whole different league than the good in-ceilings. Not even close.

OK, I'm going to try to change my perception of QS8's mid ceiling as an aesthetic 'feature', not a fau pau... Then to sell it to the wife. ;o) Though I am amazed at the leeway she is willing to show after her elation of moving the Klipsch Cornwall out of the living room.

For mid room ceiling mounting for MS8's, what is minimum top clearance and a good distance back primariy list. pos./ side surrounds? Due to sky light closest possible is 6' behind list. pos. Futhter back has no physical constraints.

and now....



You're Welcome...... (finally!)

She will think the M60/80 is a bookshelf after those.

It's true. If I recall, the Klipsch Cornwall was as large as the Klipschorn, perhaps even bigger.

Davekro: Clearance above the top-firing woofer should be at least 3 or 4 inches. More is better, but they'll cerainly work well with that little amount of clearance.

Regards,

Alan

I can vouch for the 3-4" of clearance, I have my QS's about that far away from the ceiling, works fine for me.

Mark,
I apologize. My scattered brain thought the QS8 ceiling mount thought came from Tom. Thank you after the fact very much for pressuring ;o) me to consider this idea. Hey, I may be slow...
But I do poor work!

Mounting the QS8's as backs from ceiling, 6'-8' back of list. pos. would change the large room from a great room with a home theater at one end, to a home theater with a very nice kitchen back to the left and a dinning are back to the left. I actually don't mind that idea too much. I'll get back to you on the WAF. :o)

Should read: " To aknowledge the most awsesome wisdom or Mark!"
( I am not worthy... repeat... repeat.)

EXACTLY! Her sister was saying how BIG her husbands Klipsch towers were. (maybe 40"?). My told her. Those are small! I do not know why you don't like them. ;o)

Jay,
Thanks for the photo. I believe that color is the white washed (maple?). From what I could tell from pics, these look like in kitch cabinets is called white washed oak.

When I was thinking QS's on side and back walls, the beach with gold grills woul blend in best with our wall color. Now considering a pair of 8's mounted in th emiddle of a white ceiling, the whitewashed color might blend in better. Hmmm I actually do not care as much for the whitewashed color, as the beech. I think it would look best if all four surrounds matched. Now to decide to 'blend into ceiling w/ white, or blend to wall for sides with beech (the preferred color). Of course the sides do not stick out physically like the ceilings will. Yet another uneasy decision. Any ideas/ thoughts from others with ceilings & walls?

Jay, are you happy with your choice of white? Was that pic. your side or back?

Definitely keep the speakers matched, it'll look better. Ceiling or wall mount really is up to you, whichever works better in your room. Don't forget you can "flushmount" the QS8s with the included T-bracket on the wall or get the optional full metal bracket which would allow you to change the angle of your surrounds and bring them away from the wall somewhat.

Alan has the Jedi mind trick down pat.
"QS8 on the ceiling would look stupid, no way."
"I think QS8s on the ceiling is exactly what I need."

Good eye, it is Axiom's Light Maple, very much like Washed Oak. I really liked the contrast look of the black grille with it. My wife is now favoring the standard black, I am pushing for one of the custom wraps to better match the Maple I have in the basement, but this change up is very, very far off in the future.

Hey, I thought so, too! Is Mark poaching my contributions AGAIN?

Jay,
Did you buy or make those ceiling brackets for your MS8's. Is this a side or back? Nice.

Dave, the brackets I used are just L-shaped shelf brackets I found at the local home improvement store Menards. They have a nice black plastic cover to hide the wires. I was looking at the Axiom brackets but they are a bit spendy.

Dave,

Those QS8s appear to be mounted with Axiom Full Metal Brackets. The thing you see coming down from the ceiling is just the speaker wire.

Hey! It's not fair. This new guy can't keep all the speaker sizes, shapes and full specs in his head AND keep all you forum reglars' straight too. My head is gonna burst. I had to take some heavy sedatives (read Tom's ale), to shift gears on mounting QS8's in my ceiling. As I rationalize, er, think this through... I hear Obe One's (Alan's) voice in my head... "Ceiling mounted QS8's will actually look much better than anything mounted on the back wall. Nothing to see here, move on." What a good idea. I'm glad I thought of it!

[comes back into the room...]

Hey! Who drank my beer?!?!

Dave, I do think the plan your currently pondering makes a lot of sense (especially the M60 part). Note that Axiom makes the excellent Full Metal Ceiling Bracket for just such installations. I always thought Randy's solution was pretty darn elegant, too.



Yeah, that sounds about right for this point of the process. It probably won't actually burst. Probably. Submitting an order usually relieves the pressure considerably.

Dave, the pic is a little misleading, the speaker is wall mounted with Axiom's FMB. What you see in the picture is the speaker wire terminal plate in the ceiling ( I was going to ceiling mount them but the FMB on the wall was much easier back then, no ceiling bracket from Axiom) and the subsequent wire to the speaker. That is a side shot of the speaker.

A closer view

They would look a lot better ceiling mounted.

:p

Fred,
Not sure I concur. If they were ceiling mounted, the dusty back would be visible. OMG...

Now that the only thing between me and an order (60's, 150, 4- QS8) is needing to find an SF Bay Area owner willing to audition theirs. I may be forced to roam Union City in my convertible and stop at every home I hear a booming HT. Newark, consider that a threat! ;o)

Rear and side QS8's ... what are the schools of thought on sound quality if you:
1) mount flush to a wall?
2) use bracket to mount away from wall and tilt down at an angle?
2) For backs in middle of a room (tks Tom AND Mark ;o), mount verticle or tilting towards list. pos.

I see both, just wondering if anyone feels one sounds better having tried both orientations. I'd like to plan ahead on the kind of brackets to buy.
Thanks, Dave

For on-wall, I don't think it matters that much unless you are right up by the ceiling. Then there might be an advantage to being able to angle the speaker down a little.