Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Denon 3808, Axiom A1400-8, M80s and a full HT

So this weekend I had the pleasure of meeting onn(Mel). He was coming to town today to enjoy some Junior hockey playoff action. He contacted me with the idea of bring down his temporarily unused A1400 for me to try out with my system. I just couldn't say no to such a deal. He arrived around 11AM, we went downstairs and I gave him a quick audition of the PB13 and the QS8's as surrounds, with the 3808 running on it's own, he has M80s as surrounds in his sytem.

While he went to the game, I quickly hooked up the 1400 to run in 2 channel with the M80s and was able to simply plug and unplug the speaker wires from the back of the M80s(banana plugs) while switching between Denon amp and Denon/A1400. The Denon was set for 2 channel, direct, no sub, so mains are set to large.

I checked for calibration differences with pink noise from the Denon to see if the extra power or anything else would allow for the A1400 to have greater SPL at the same speaker settings, too my dismay or luck there was a minimal 0.5 db differential between the 2, the Denon amp being quieter. I also confirmed the same levels were used while listening to various sources and music just ensure something wasn't amiss.

I wasn't prepared for the differences I was about to hear.

First up was Pink Floyd - Time, I love this track for it's open and airy sound and great bass line. After a quick listen with just the Denon measuring around 83db, I switched the speakers over to the cables from the A1400 and turned it on. The sound stage opened up as well as lifted up well above the M80s, the bass was also tighter, yet more pronounced. I was shocked. I wasn't about to believe what I was hearing, I doubled checked the SPL and it was reading the same as just the Denon on it's own. I went back and forth between the 2 amps for about 20 min. and everytime the A1400 sounded better/crisper and the bass was nice and tight, I found the bass on the 3808 to sound boomy and loose by comparison.

Ok, so it sounded good on that song, next was Gwen Stefani - Sweet Escape, a bass heavy song to validate my feeling of better bass with the A1400. It was confirmed. The bass was indeed tighter and hitting lower than on the A1400. I could hear pictures rattling when using the A1400, but not so with the 3808 on it's own. Again I double checked the SPL and it was the same, around 83db.

So I thought let's see what some of my lesser quality cd's are like, I put on Simple Plan, Journey - Greatest Hits, Van halen 1984, a few others I failed to write down, they all sounded more open and spacious with better bass.

OK, so it sounds better across the board, How much more power, SPL, can I get out of it, I achieved 103-105 with the Denon on it's own and reached 110-111 with the A1400, holy @#%$ that is loud!

Well the A1400 was better at everything at reasonable to reasonably loud levels and beyond, can I hear a difference at lower volumes?

I set the volume to read an SPL of 65 db and yet again I could hear the differences, the top end being the most obvious. It still had that wider and higher sound than the 3808 alone.

I still wasn't believing what I heard, so I asked my wife to come and have a listen. We played some INXS - Listen like Thieves, while she was listening I was busy switching the wires back and forth knowing the SPL was nearly identical, it shouldn't matter, she only smiled and nodded that she could indeed hear a wider and higher soundstage than with the A1400 compared to the Denon on it's own. Next up was Elton John - Levon, she felt the piano had much more presence and sounded like it was right in front of her. She asked for Simon and Garfunkel - Sounds of Silence, this was the song that she didn't like the more open, airy, detailed sound the Ninja XO's gave to the M22's. The A1400 sound fantastic, no harshness and still all the detail that the modded M22s offered, amazing was the word she used. We continued with many other of her favorite songs, Neil Young - Harvest Moon, The Who - ..Fooled again, Journey - Anyway you want it, and so on. All sounded even better on the M80' swith the A1400 than with the Denon 3808 on it's own at all volume levels.

The difference so much for the better she actually asked me which I wanted more, a new TV or a new amp. I WANTED this amp more than a new TV, it is that much better, IMO. I know I will end up with a new TV before I get this amp, or any other amp(maybe ) due to it's cost and the fact TV's are not changing that much and I know there are new pre/pros to come yet, so I will wait for a new amp, at least at the time of this review.

I have yet to try the A1400 in a full HT environment to see if it is that much better with Soundtrack material, this review to come later this week, as Mel was kind enough to let me hang onto this amp, until he is ready to put his HT back together when the EP800 gets back to him. He also has those expensive Denon seperates to tide him over till then, so he isn't missing this amp too much.

Hey, I'm glad you got to directly compare the A1400 to the Denon. It'll be nice to hear more of your thoughts when you've spent more time with it.

Hi Jay,
Just got home and it was great meeting you today.
I just want to add that I agree with your explanation on the amp differences. If you hadn't made the switches between the Denon and A1400-8 I wouldn't have believed that there would have been that noticeable a difference.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the full HT hookup to the A1400-8
Have fun
Mel N.

Thanks for the review and I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about the mult-channel. Do you have the Dark Side of the Moon multi-channel SACD to do a direct comparison with stereo?

I believe Audioholics is planning to publish a review soon. From what little preliminary stuff I’ve read in a couple threads it sounds like they are also impressed. Looks like one more thing to add to my list of things I need to buy.


My aircraft only puts out 114dB with all for engines idling (at TRT it’s a different story).


I’m not worthy.

I love that amp from the first day I got it. I got to try it with my Sony AVR, which is pretty good on its own, but with the A-1400, I would say that there is more presence to any song or movie that I play.

I found that in 7 channel mode some of that Presence is gone, so I use it to power only the M80's and the VP 150. The 4 QS8's are powered by my Sony AVR. I look forward to your HT review.

Wow. What an amazing opportunity. I'm impressed that you were so thorough in your testing and didn't just sit on the couch and soak in some music for hours.

Thanks!

I don't think you'll be disappointed with it in the HT setting either. I drive my front three speakers with the A1400-8 and my surrounds with my Onkyo 905 (also serving as the pre-amp).

Check out Live Free or Die Hard when you're ready to test it on films.

Thanks guys, I did sit back for awhile this afternoon and just listen, man, it is going to be hard to give it back. I am going to try the M22's as well, just to see if there is as much difference with a smaller 8 ohm load speaker.

One thing I forgot to mention in the original post, I tried Audyssey, not calibrated with the A1400 so take this for what it is - a rough test, I found Audyssey with the Denon alone to sound reasonably similar to the A1400/M80 no EQ, I found there to be very little difference between Denon/Audyssey and the A1400 without. The main difference was the Denon/Audyssey lost some of the low end, so I can see why Alan/Axiom recommends not use it, it isn't necessary with a very capable amp.

Thanks for the writeup, Jay!

I honestly don't see my budget ever allowing for that amp, but it makes me hopeful that some day I'll find something similar with a lower-priced two-channel option!

this doesn't help convince me that I don't need one of these. gee thanks! I wonder how the A1400-2 compares for 2 channel listening?

I'm just curious as to what the "amps don't change the SQ" club has to say about this?

Especially comments about a changing soundstage...

...get the popcorn maker fired up....

This is one thing I still don't understand. "The soundstage changing". If I wasn't sitting in Jays room listening as he switched the speaker wires from the Denon to the Axiom and hearing the noticable difference between them. I would have assumed since the Axiom had more output the sound would just be slightly louder. The only thing I can possbly think is happening is using a receiver vs using seperates, where the receiver may "colorize" the sound slightly and the Axiom amp brings out the best of the speaker especially the M80.
Just my one cent thought on this.
Mel N.

Mel and Jay are wonderful. Thanks very much to both of you. Very interesting!

Very nice comparison!

And here I am with a wife willing to let me spend $4500 on an amp and no money to do it, ARRRRGGGHHHH

Look people, I'm glad you had fun with this little test, but i just finished my application to the "flat earth"...I mean "amps don't sound" fraternity. Don't get me confused again! How can Peter hear a big difference b/w the Pioneer and the Onkyo or Jay hear a big difference between the Denon or the Axiom if there is no difference without more than doubling the power???????
Perhaps the Axiom does quadruple the power of the Denon? And Peter clearly has issues - how else do you explain the patience to swap AVRs time and time again for our benefit? Something is not right here. I'm starting to think my wires do make my system sound better than tin lamp cord. It's all slipping away...and I had it so nicely wrapped up. Time to pull the crystal changer out of the closet.

Do you want some Totem Beaks with that Charles?

Maybe it should be amps of the same quality do not sound different? And Axiom's amp is not of the same quality as anything I have ever tried out. I know Mel(onn) mentioned he didn't think there was much difference between the Axiom and his Denon seperates he is using, but he thought there was a noticeable difference from my 3808 to his Denon. I think I got this right, Mel?

You got that right.
Maybe it was the speaker wire
Since I'm not an expert at this and can only go by what I heard, I still think that the receiver vs the separates has to come into play somehow. Having that extra headroom is another possibility. I'll leave this up to you experts to decide and I'll sit back with popcorn in hand.
Mel N.

Mel,
Thanks for passing the popcorn, but Oh Man.. you put way too much butter on it. My keyboard is all greasy now! Oh, hear comes my cat. She'll have those keys cleaned lickity split!

You might have a clean keyboard now but no mouse

DOH! !! THAT's where my wireless mouse went! ;o)
Here Emma. Here kitty, kitty!

I've been meaning to take my SPL meter to work with me and see what kind of levels I get from inside the cockpit of my work plane, I'm betting they're up around 90-100db or more. I keep forgetting the meter.

Jay, thanks for the review ... sounds like one badazz amp. I've read or heard in the past that digital amps have an ever oh so slight cleaner sound, always blew it off as hogwash but I wonder if there's something to that.

What do you fly? Most of the pilots here use noise canceling headphones. I tried someone’s pair and didn’t think that they did much of anything.

When I took the reading of 114 dB I was just aft of the landing gear with a line of sight to all for engines. Actually at or just above ground idle these things aren’t really that loud compared to something like an F4 or AV8B. However, when we do engine trims and take them up to TRT the ground shakes and it’s deafening a couple hundred meters away. I keep forgetting to take my meter in for a power run hopefully I’ll remember next time.

That meter is going to go running and screaming for the hills....

That reminds me of the last Air Show I went to. We had access to the Commander's Tent on the flight line. Great view. But being the bad parent I am, I failed to notice heed the fact everyone else had ear protection. (Wimps! I love the sound of a jet!) Well, Thunder Birds turned on the f-16s facing us, but not far enough away. I was not worried, they were just warming up, not juicing the throttle.
Holly Crap. By the time the 7th jet was fired up, the whistle sound of the air racing into the nose was like a spike driving from my ears through my skull down my spine and out my toes. I had to cover the kids ears, and I think I lost some brain cells that day.
Great show though - the F22 Raptor is worth the price of admission, makes the Thunder Birds and Blue Angles look like they are flying bi-wings. Fun to watch, but simply not in the same league. It is, in fact, a UFO.

Actually, yes Adrian, I would like some Totem Beaks. Those little bastards really class up a speaker. And, unlike this BS about amps sounding different, the spikes on speakers really do make a difference.
According to PSB, the speaker wire does change the sound. [Ducking and covering!] Wires do affect sound!

I was thinking of you when I wrote that I just forgot the smilie

I know.


But I was surprised to find that PSB backs this idea. They don't join many cult theories and I don't know of any ownership in a wire company, and they don't recommend a wire. They just say the wire affects sound. Interesting.

Which Seperates do you have Mel?

I'd probably buy an A1400 if I knew it would make the profound improvements as noted by Jay, but I just didn't get that impression at all when I added my NHT P-5. Better headroom and dynamic peaks, but no difference at all at normal SPL levels.

mdrew, all I can tell you is I noticed a difference. What the cause of this is, I don't know. Logically it shouldn't do what it did. I refer to Jay on that because he is more famaliar with his setup than I am and would notice the differences better than I would as someone off the street doing an A B test. I don't have that history.
I got the A1400-8 with my entire Axiom speaker purchase. So what I intially heard was great sound with nothing to compare with except my old Yamaha receiver and I didn't do an A B test with it. I just figured that it would sound different and there would be nothing to analyse.
Another cent into the thoughts kitty
Mel N.

Your free to come to Edmonton for a demo though.

The experience from the flightline is much more visceral, I bet your kids loved it. The Thunder Birds are cool but we call them the “Thunder Chickens” because whenever we’ve met their ground crews they’ve been arrogant little…^#@$#s, but still cool to watch. Best or I should say craziest show I’ve ever seen was the Tricolour Arrow. Those guys were nuts.

I agree with you about the sound. Those engines in those little “lawn darts” they fly have a much higher piercing sound to them. For shear noise nothing I’ve heard beats an F4 Phantom. Though my ex-wife got to see a space shuttle launch and said it was quite deafening.

The F22 is very cool. My first job here was doing the refueling support for the F22 flight test program and got to go along on several missions.

I am so jealous. I talked to one of the pilots after and he could hardly hold back the grin when talking about the jet. Got a great picture (in terms of experience, not quality) of a 3-generations flight: F22, f-16, and p-51. Good stuff.

Thanks for the review Jay, as I have not yet had time (not sure if I ever will, those days are gone) to systematically compare the 1400 with the 3808, interesting though playing at 0db-2db per nominal 3800 output or any other Denon level, I notice I continue to absolutely LOVE the Audyssey EQ into the 1400, I mean tonight the sound absolutely blew me away again and inspired me to log on to the Axiom boards. Previously I believed more or less in the rough equation of good equipment + moderate to high volume + minimal or no EQ = audio nirvana, but my ears say the equation has been proven wrong.

I find myself interested in what Family Man stated, I have obviously considered using the 3808 to run the four QS8s and the 1400 to run the M80s and VP150 or some similar combo, I suppose it doesn't fit too well with current science of audio, but what do people think, will it make a difference? What's the best combo for powering an Axiom Epic 80/800 speaker setup given 3808/1400 amplification?

Thanks, you guys are the best.

Nice pictures! Cool that you got to be that close up. No matter how cool the F22 looks it still amazes me how small the F16 is.

I better clarify something from my poor wording earlier. I didn’t get to fly on the F22 though I have been up on a 2 seat F16. The support missions I was referring to were refuel missions. I did get to see them in flight from about 25 feet away while refueling. For the record I have absolutely no pictures of that.

Once I move if I can find the disk (packed away) I will post some other in-flight refueling pictures of the Thunderbirds, B2s etc…and as long as the unit markings aren’t visible I have a short video of one of our planes doing a low level pass at and air show in Chile. Having a 707 fly directly over your head at 50 feet is actually more impressive than a fighter.

Cheers,
Dean

I'll really be looking forward to those pics and video Dean ... don't forget!

Man, can we go OT, huh? I just checked the thread topic before posting this...

One of my favorite scenes of all time is the F14s "playing" with Japanese Zeros in The Final Countdown...

Lol...I remember seeing that movie when it came out, geez around 1980/81.

I have the DVD. It's a guilty pleasure!

I remember liking that movie. Hated the Europe song with the same name though, despite the catchy keyboard rif.

Mark, I hate to say it, but I did love that film. I wish they would redo it, but this time just ahead and wipe the other air force.

Dean, I was pretty sure you meant that you were in the refueling plane (could not recall if any F22 had 2 seats) and was fully jealous of that experience. That would be a wild sight. I'm still shocked they do mid-air refueling, although I know it is routine. Reminds me of the old bi-planes hooking up to the blimps. G. Lucas could not come up with a wilder concept.

Finally, I have to apologize for helping hijack one of the more interesting threads we have had in a while. Someone feel free to break in with some results from testing the 1400 v 3809.

I've only heard the keyboard riff, but it sure makes GOB look cool in Arrested Development!

Just added to Netflix. tks Mark

PS. I see they have it in the rays of BLUE. oooooooooh!

Who got a 3809? Must be from Roswell or Area 51...

I recall when we had a FAC with us on a training mission. After I called in CAS, the FAC asked me if my men would like a small fly-by over the hill we were on. I said, sure, why not, the mission's over and the trainer called admin time.

(After missing the hill the first time, got vectored to the wrong hill) the two F16s flew *RIGHT* over our heads. I could see the eye color of the pilot, it was that close. What the FAC didn't tell us was how loud the stupid engines were! Oh man, our ears were ringing after that fly by! And we were used to grenades and .50 cal MGs going off! It absolutely amazed me that a) they could drop those 500lb's right on target - danger close no less and b) how small they were and c) how loud they were.

On another trip down memory lane, I remember being on top a large hill in Ft. Carson. It was early morning and I was on rattle snake patrol for the rest of the company (walking around the area looking for rattle snakes). Then down the valley, I saw some fast movers coming in. It turned out to be two A6's on a traing mission. They were flying NOE and I was able to look *down* at them as they flew in between the valleys. With the morning sun coming up, morning haze in the valley, it was a SPECTACULAR view. That's one sight I'll cherish for a long time!

(just realized I used too many acronyms. FAC == forward air controller. He's the AF weenie that follows us Infantrymen to call in air support. CAS = Close air support. Danger Close = friendlies within X meters of the target. It varies with munition and type of air/arty support. NOE == nap of earth, where pilots fly close to the earth to avoid radar detection. Admin time = no longer tactical, you can smoke and joke)

Thank god you explained the acronyms!

I had the knife right at my testicals and just shouted (to no one in particular) "I won't be needing you guys anymore!" when I saw the last paragraph.

Haha, do it Mark, do it

LOL I loved that movie, great call Mark! For some reason this movie popped into my mind whenever I read your post, The Philadelphia Experiment ... remember that one.

Hey I have 1.2 hours actual F-16 simulator time logged in my book ... during an in-briefing at an Airshow that I flew into at McDill AFB in Tampa the AF personnel had a raffle drawing for an hour of F-16 simulator time in their training facility, out of 175 folks my name was the only name drawn, that was neato.

Dean I do cropdusting, you all do your flying above 15k', all of mine is done below 500'. I've flown most ag planes at one time or another either spraying or fire fighting, my favorite is the AT-802 and my current ride is an AT-502 ... the 802 is a 1300shp 800 gallon hopper airplane and the 502 is a 750shp 500 gallon hopper airplane. Little guys compared to yours.

I've tried the noise cancelling helmets but really don't care too much for them, I couldn't tell enough of a difference to justify the price difference.

Hey watch the "AF weenie" talk. I spent 24 years in the AF, much of my time with AF Spec Ops providing you "infantrymen" with AC-130 CAS.

Jay - thanks for the review and thoroughly confusing me and my formerly rock-solid opinion on the value of external amplifiers at lower volumes.

Jason

Jason,
I second your thoughts. Just when you start to feel pretty good about your 'beliefs' (therefore buying/ reality based wish list) with regard to a level of AVR to fit your budget and perceived 'need level', Jay comes along throws into question that 'need level'!

Just when you thought it was safe to feel good with your choices.... along comes Jay! Jay, we love you man, but you're killing us!

Jay is single handedly trying to jumpstart the economy by getting everyone to buy more audio equipment, lol.

I’ve now been in all 4 major branches of the U.S. armed forces and no one can beat the AF for acronyms. It’s been 6 years and I still ain’t even close to figuring them out. Plus they are contextual so one acronym can have multiple meanings. The Army and Marine Corps had the fewest and at least in the Navy something like COMSUBLANT you can figure out. Hell of a time keeping port and starboard straight though.



Thankfully I only experienced one of those guys since the Marine Corps had it’s own Air Force. Our guys were called ALOs (Air Liaison Officers), Marine Corps pilots assigned to a battalion to coordinate CAS. The Corps learned in WW2 that pilots can better describe a target to another pilot since he knows what it’s going to look like from the air.

As for the only FAC I briefly saw I was not impressed. It was at Teem Spirit 82 or 84 (old age). My platoon went in on UH-1s to secure an LZ. When the second chalk landed with the command element I watched as the FAC jumped out of the CH-46, looked left and right to see if anyone was watching and then started hopping up and down on one leg like he twisted the other ankle. He reached up and had the crew chief pull him back onboard and sayonara our CAS.

Yeah those AF weenies sure are…hey wait a minute I’m and AF weenie now.



Always would have like to see one of those in action. One of my First Sergeants in the Marine Corps said that Puff (Vietnam era) was only CAS from the AF he trusted would hit the badguys and not him.

I just noticed one advantage to typing rather than talking about this stuff. Every other word isn’t and F-bomb.



Maybe we could adopt it into a forum motto. “Axiom Forums: Where no good thread goes un-hijacked”

Cheers mates,
Dean

Here goes the knife again.....!

Oh, try a spoon instead.

That sounds like a fun day at the office.

I've always been intrigued by this one...

The logo is ready, we just need approval from Alan or Ian.

HEY! THEY HI-JACKED MY PIC OF A BAD-ASS PLANE WITH A DAMN AD! What is this world coming to when you can't even use a photo without permission anymore.

Al Gore and his Internet - it will never last.

That reminds me of a joke one C130 pilot told me (I was on the tarmac getting ready for a jump while he was walking around). This hotshot F16 driver comes on the radio and says "watch this!" to the C130 driver. He does some 9G turns, barrel rolls etc. And the C130 driver says "that's nuthin...check this out" And nothing happens for 15 minutes. So the F16 driver gets back on the horn and says "hey, I'm waiting...what am I going to see?" And the C130 pilot says "well, I just went back, took a dump, had some coffee and donut!" If you have to strap on a bag to relieve yourself, you'll appreciate the humor!

Twas a sad sad day yesterday, my experimentations came to a grinding halt. I blew up my 3808.

I managed to let a few too many wires get together when swapping them out in the hurry to not loose too much of the memory of that last sound wave; relays hadn't fully shut down, still powering up the system etc. It should have just shut down as has happened in the past, instead I heard snap, crackle and pop. I am not talking about Rice crispies either. There was also that foul stench of burnt up electronics. It is now in the shop awaiting repairs.

On the plus side I can say that I heard more surround effects with the mains and center hooked up to the A1400, freeing up the Denon to drive the 3 surround channels.

Further results to come with a run of the A1400 at mojo's house next weekend and possibly icehawk's this weekend.

Sorry about the bad luck!

Damn Jay I'm really sorry to hear that! Any word how long it'll take for the repairs to the Denon? I wish I had a half decent receiver I could lend you.
Mel N.

Ouch!! at least it's under warranty, better to happen sooner than later.

That does really suck but look on the bright side…you didn’t fry Mel’s A1400-8.

I felt ill thinking something had happened to it.

Trying desperatly to think of someway to test it, I remembered the idea of a cd player or similar low level analog to test subs. I hooked up my my wife's MP3 player through it with my 1/8 to RCA stereo adapter plugged into the headphone jack, this way I even have volume control, turned the volume all the way down, hit play, turned the volume up and voila the most expensive Ipod/MP3 dock yet! It actually sounded pretty good. Mind you that was probably just the relief of knowing the amp was ok.

Wow Jay... my condolences, what a bummer! Have fun testing with Mojo, tell him hi.

Jason

Come on, tell the truth, how many versions of this post did you try before hitting send. If I had received such a call, it would look more like:



Your restraint is inspired. (Now run, don't walk, to your car and get your gem of an amp back from that mad man!)

And Jay, don't feel too bad. I have fried a few amps in my day. Nothing as nice as a 3808, but still. I'm curious how you did this. I can see crossing speaker wires, etc, but that would blow a fuse at most, not cook something. How did you get a high current line in contact with the tender parts? I cooked mobile amps where you have to mess with raw positive and negative wires with terminal blocks just microns apart. (As you can see, it was a design flaw, not an install error. )

P.S. - It is ironic, that I think the picture on my screen under the Wall'O'Fame is Onn and Jake smiling before the smell of cooked DACs filled the air. Wish we had a pic of Jay when he heard the last POP! That would stay on the Wall'O'Shame for some time.

Jay, if you want to pay shipping I can send you an OLD, Onkyo 700 series. No Dolby, just Pro Logic. Seems like a fitting punishment!

From Randy’s thread:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=254115#Post254115



Some sort of amplification has been on my list of things to do/get since I started but has been hard to justify living in an apartment. I mean come on what’s the point of having 3xM80s if the most power you ever give them is 120w, kind of like driving a Ferrari and never taking it above second gear. I listen to lots of classical music and know I will need more power to handle the dynamic peaks when I turn up the volume to live performance levels.

The A1400-8 intrigued me from the start because of it’s ability to deliver all it’s power no matter how many channels are driven. This way I could experiment using 2, 3, 5 and 7 channels driven with nothing wasted in any configuration.

What’s really got me going now is this comment:



I love the “open and airy” sound Jay is describing which is one reason I held out for a house with an HT room with a vaulted ceiling. If the A1400-8 enhances this quality it’s a huge plus.

Jay also says “The bass was indeed tighter and hitting lower.” Since I prefer to use my M80s full range getting better base response from them is another plus. Especially since running multiple subwoofers is way far down on my to do/get list.

So after that rather long winded explanation yes I am interested in getting an A1400-8 but still want to do more research before jumping in. I read that Audioholics has a review coming up so I doubt I’ll pull the trigger until I see what they have to say about it too. But thanks to Jay’s great review I’m leaning heavily toward getting one.

I know the A1400-8 is a definite improvement over the entry-level Onkyo I was running (thanks to current-limiting), but it's nice to hear there's a tangible difference between higher-end receivers like the 3808 and it. It would still be nice if a more proper, scientific listening test were to occur with several of the models that have been in discussion lately, including the two units PeterChenoweth trialed along with the 3808 and the A1400-8. Maybe the differences are all inaudible between competently designed units operating within their limits, but it may be surprising just where those limits are for each unit.

Dean, If you send your 1400 to Jay, he can "test" it for you.

Hey the 1400 survived intact, barely.

Sure, I'll test anyone's amp if they want to see how much it can really withstand

Jay, I'm sorry to hear about your receiver and I'm also very curious how this happened as it might help me out with what I should do before I get other people to connect/ disconnect cables on my receiver.

Turn EVERYTHING off and wait for silence, then start your re-wiring. I still had music playing out of the 1400(it has a few second delay before full shut down while the caps drain out) and I am guessing I managed to cross the 2 different sets of speaker wires, heard a little crackle when picking up the 3808 leads, still not really sure if it was from wires arcing or just the amp, really wasn't paying close attention - which was the main cause of the problem. Free space was becoming an issue when trying to swap out 6 pairs of wires, this certainly calls for alot more attention to be paid, at least that is all I will need to pay.

Dean - if you get one as well I'm going to have to rethink my formerly rock-solid position that I had absolutely no need for one of these.

Despite that, I find myself hoping you'll order one to add another well-informed opinion to the debate going on in my brain.

Jason

(hmmmm.......maybe if I can helps sell a bunch of them I will get a 'special' price on one)

Jason if you can afford one buy one and try it out, if you don't find it to work as well as I am saying, you can return it.

Yeah, I've thought about that Jay. Just can't bring myself to spend that much money on an amp. I like my system so much right now that I just can't imagine it being a $4k upgrade. It's more a serious curiosity than anything at this point, but it is gnawing at me to be sure.

Jason

Jay, maybe you could do a world tour. Forum members PM you, you drop in, do an A/B demo, move on.

That's the whole problem, isn't it? If I had been willing to spend an extra 4k on the system I probably would have bought more expensive speakers to begin with.

On the other hand, logic never really stopped me before, so why should it now?

What is this thing called logic? I think logically we wouldn' be in this hobby in the first place!

Never heard of it.

You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it does!

Hansang is correct.

Logic(7).
Logic (noun) is simply the name of speaker balancing software. It has nothing to do with the average OCD HT enthusiast!