Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Axiom’s Newest Speaker: The In-Ceiling M3

Outdoor Speaker Placement

Speaker Placement: Unusual Room Layouts and Elevating Speakers

Wall'O'Fame
Greetings fellow Axiom owners...
HG Rosewoods Part 3
Who's Online
1 registered (bridgman), 61 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
13312 Members
11 Forums
22854 Topics
403804 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17754
pmbuko 16268
SirQuack 13325
CV 11170
MarkSJohnson 10856
Meanwhile On Facebook

Hurry - sale ends Sunday!

Get a Gift Card Worth 20% of Your Purchase! Save hundreds!

Got your new In-Ceiling speakers yet? #atmosready http://axiomaudio.com/m3-in-c...

(y) Can't wait for the next evolution of surround sound to go mainstream!

Page 6 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#257401 - 04/19/09 01:18 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: chesseroo]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11170
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Um, "REAR" duty.
I'll let you figure out the fourth option.


Ha ha, I understood the "thrust" of what you were saying. I thought I'd try to derail you, but the train is still a-comin'!

Top
#257403 - 04/19/09 01:21 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: CV]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4801
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: CV
 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Um, "REAR" duty.
I'll let you figure out the fourth option.


Ha ha, I understood the "thrust" of what you were saying. I thought I'd try to derail you, but the train is still a-comin'!

I can hear those trains quite clearly in my QS8 surround speakers!
\:D
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#257502 - 04/20/09 01:34 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: fredk]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Dave. If I understand correctly you are listening to the surrounds/rears by themselves. Why?? You are supposed to listen to the music not the speakers or just one component of the music.

Also, if you find the bass thin, why do you continue to use the Audissey settings?

Listen to all the speakers with the surrounds/rears crossed much lower.

Last. The surrounds are there to add depth to music and give it an immersive sound, not to add meat/oompf/kick to your bass. If you have an issue with the bass, you should be taking issue with your mains.


I compared the QS8's to the V52 bookshelf speakers with the 1909 in 7 ch. stereo with all other speakers unplugged from AVR. I don't know if 7 ch stereo would apply it's 110Hz x-over or not, but full range vs. 110Hz and up, both pairs got the exact same freq. input. Hearing specifically how each pair of speakers sounded like without the distraction of all the other speakers, I believe to be the only way for me to objectively compare how each performed to my taste.

I ran each pair at 1909 vol. of -30, -20, -15, -10, -5 and we both wrote down our impressions of how each's SQ changed as the volume increased. Th RS SPL meter clocked them both similar in actual dB's.

The bookshelf speakers sounded smoother (warmer). They were more localized as to location, but sounded better at the higher volumes down to -10. The Qs8's were lacking bass by comparison, not unexpected due to much smaller cabinet volume. The Q's had a wider sound stage. In the end, I much preferred the V52's sound. We then did the same test with the subs plugged in, then with all the 7 channels plugged in. In my large room, I preferred the bookshelves as backs. I will order a pair of M2's to try out, as I believe their SQ would be better than the V52's. I also put back my (8" woofer) in-wall speakers, to independently as well as w/sub and w/all speakers. For my 23' wide room, I preferred their ability to project better as well as liking their SQ through all the volume levels. It was very good to have a musicians ears to hear from and compare notes/preferences at each stage/speaker. Very nice to get away from comparing specs, to comparing what I liked best in my room.

The M80'/VP150 up front are GREAT. I love them.
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#257504 - 04/20/09 01:51 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: MarkSJohnson]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
... but listening to them by themselves without all the rest of the speakers running is not really how the system will work in the real world.


I respectfully disagree with you (all \:\) ). If one pair of speakers sounds better through out the volume range (to ME), then why would you think that they would not also sound better producing whatever sound they are asked to produce in concert with all the other speakers in the system? Even more true if listening in 7 ch Stereo, with all speakers receiving the same signals (not sure if it's full range or crossed at the 1909's set levels). That's crazy talk! With movies, if one speaker's mids/high are too bright and the lows are all but non-existant to MY ears, why would that sound being mixed with the others get any better? To test the theory that these unliked sounds would be transformed by adding back the subs, as I said, we tested both pairs at all sound levels alone, w/subs and finally with all 7 channels. We both came toi the conclusion we preferred the bookshelves as backs and my in-wall (8" kevlar woofer, 1" alum dome tweeter, w/sound deadened in wall cavity), to the QS8's. I know it bucks common thinking, but I will follow my and my musician friends consensus opinion for our tastes in this particular room.

Tomorrow I hope to string the wires thru the attic before it gets too hot. Mount the new DIY brackets and get the wiring down the wall to the AVR.
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#257508 - 04/20/09 02:13 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: chesseroo]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Surrounds are not for presenting bass. If you want bass from surrounds, go to a full range speaker.

I will be sort of doing that with the bookshelf speaker rated for down to 60-70Hz

 Quote:
Angle at which the QSx are placed is not how they were designed. Normal, flat surface placement with options for height or distance front to back along the sides.
That's about it for optimizing location.
I agree. This is why the QS8's, TO ME, did not perform well out in mid air! Also, as fits your comment, I found changing from QS8's flat on wall w/'T' brackets to tilting them about 25º, their fullness dropped significantly.

 Quote:
A xover of 150Hz is ridiculously high unless you have main speakers the size of a baseball.

Exactly. The fact that Audyssey and the 1909 set the mid air hanging QS8s to 150Hz, says they sounded like very small speakers in that location. So how is having a 'very small' (sounding) speaker preferred over a fuller range speaker, even as 7.1 backs in HT?

 Quote:
And yes, if you listen to the surrounds on their own, it does sound weird.
??? before, all my speakers were crossed at 80Hz or below by Audyssey and the 1909. The most prevalent x-over recommendations, by far, has been to cross all speakers at 80Hz and the Sub at 80Hz too. Besides sounding better to me, it seems to fit with most recommendations.

 Quote:
Lastly, forget about the notion that because your neighbor is a drummer he has a special ability to better discern sound. It is a fallacy. If anything his hearing is shot from playing drums.

I always say, if you are going to make generalizations, you might as well make them glaring. Do you happen to know my friend?

 Quote:
I recommend you try some reading from Dr. Toole's book. It will clarify many questions if you are concerned about so many small details that may or may not mean anything at all.
If theory and my ears disagree, I'm now deciding on going with my ears. That is the measuring stick that ultimately matters, well to me anyway!
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#257509 - 04/20/09 02:33 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: CV]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: CV
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
rear duty


*snicker*


Now Mark, don't go taking Charles' comment on baring your rear again! (It was so white it had never seen a single ray of sun, even thru a window! \:\) )
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#257514 - 04/20/09 07:04 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: davekro]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10856
Loc: Central NH
You can't believe how tempted I was, but showing the same photo again and again, I risk overexposure of my rears.

In the end (I'm sorry!), I don't think there's a person here who doesn't agree that you should use what you prefer...Axiom or not. It's your system, in your room, and what sounds best to you is ALL that matters.

I know that in MY case (I won't speak for others), I'm just concerned that a person can stress out so much in tweaking their system that they forget how to enjoy it, and I don't want to see that happen to you. I know the system is still pretty new to you, but I see more posts about crossovers and positioning than I do in the "What Movie are you watching tonight" thread.

I joke about my room sucking but seriously, when I first posted graphs here, women hid their children, grown men were found in a fetal position under tables, and distant dogs howled. Someone, somewhere, felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices cried out in terror....

For awhile, I was all about tweaking because I was unhappy that my square room gave me so many peaks and nulls. After a week or so, though, I realized that the system still sounded good...great even... and was far, far better than what I had before. There was no way I was going to improve it without doing serious treatments. So I walked away, and haven't metered the system yet. Now, I don't even feel the desire to meter it, though if I'm in a room where lots of other people are metering, I'm tempted to take one little reading myself. Then I remember my 12 steps and stop myself.

Now, I just blissfully enjoy my system without worrying about tweaking the response.

No, you're not in that kind of danger yet. But another week of this, and some murmurs on an intervention might be heard among your friends' PMs.

Oh, and I think if you want the Axiom sound in the rear (snicker), you should try M22s instead of M2s, as the M2s probably won't offer any more bass than the QS8s!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

Top
#257532 - 04/20/09 11:19 AM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: MarkSJohnson]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
... and was far, far better than what I had before. There was no way I was going to improve it without doing serious treatments.

+1 on the first. I have also ht the serious treatments wall regarding bass in my concrete box (at least its not square).

I have no doubt that ear break-in occurs and that it take a fair amount of time. Over the first 6 months or so what sounded good to me changed considerably. At some point, the surrounds sounded better level matched where I couldn't 'hear' them. I went from running the sub 10+db hot to maybe 2db hot. I could start to recognize instruments and music where I was getting too much reflection from my room (yes Virginia the M80s can be bright on some material in a higly reflective room).

As much as I talk about tweeking (I'm a propeller head at heart) I spend far more time listening and only tweek after I completely understand what I am tweeking.

Oh, and you need at least 6 subs. ;\)
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

Top
#257538 - 04/20/09 12:20 PM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: MarkSJohnson]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
...Then I remember my 12 steps and stop myself.

Now, I just blissfully enjoy my system without worrying about tweaking the response.

Oh, and I think if you want the Axiom sound in the rear (snicker), you should try M22s instead of M2s, as the M2s probably won't offer any more bass than the QS8s!



Mark,
You may already feel the disturbance in The Force quelling as we speak. After doing extensive listening tests with someone who's audio ear I trust, it was much more helpful to share my perceptions with him, get his opinion and balance his comments with my perceptions. In the past, the only comparison I was making was my perceptions (which I was pretty confused about), to specs and measurements, which I do not fully understand anyway. Now I feel good about my choice for the sides and backs in my system because of the way they sound (to me), not because of how other feel about speakers x or y. I am ecstatic over the M80's (sorry squirrel) and VP150 in the front.

Since I prefer my Bic America V52's (M2 size w/ 5 1/4" woofer, 1/2" dome tweeter) over the Q's in the mid air back back position, I thought the same sized but probably higher SQ M2 might bring a slight SQ improvement. Worth testing anyway. I did seriously consider the M22's because I know they would be a significant SQ improvement (in that mid air application) than the Q. But having a 20" tall BS speaker hanging down from the ceiling in the middle of our great room, did not appeal to us. We care choosing to compromise with the smaller (M2 sized) BS.

Thinking about your comments, for now, I think I will not bring in the M2's. Since I like the sound the way it is, I will enjoy it this way for some time. As you all say, it is time to "step away from the dB meter and tape measure" and start enjoying music an movies. The lessons are learned when the student is ready. I am now ready!

This morning I drill into the ceiling, mount my new brackets and V52's. crawl thru the ceiling to pull wire, then I am a listener, a tester no more (well for some time anyway ;\) )

The patience of the intervention crew has been appreciated.













Mark, and one day, you'll stop bringing up the 'rear'... \:D



Edited by davekro (04/20/09 12:21 PM)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#257540 - 04/20/09 12:28 PM Re: 2nd comparison QS8s vs. M22 as surrounds [Re: fredk]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Oh, and you need at least 6 subs. ;\)


Fred, I am with you there. Too much is never enough! Like when you ask a guitar lover or (any) fisherman how many guitars or fishing poles is enough, you get the same answer: "One more!"

I believe subs may fall into this category. ;o) I may keep my eye out for a second used Servo 15 sub an retire one or both of the 'filler' KLH's. But that is not a near term thought, because I am into enjoying now. ( for both my and my wife's mental health. ;\) )
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
Page 6 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.