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#261964 - 05/31/09 11:26 AM Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it?
wilwom Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 175
Loc: Denton, TX
I have an SVS PCi 25-31 that I've had since 2002. I moved from a home with a 2,500 cubic ft living room to one with a 7,000 cubic ft living/dining plus it has large openings into the kitchen. I've been lurking and reading about better subwoofers here and on other boards ever since I moved in 2005 (my engineering nature). I do have the money to buy a higher end sub.

My neighbor 4 doors down just had a neighborhood party yesterday. He has many toys and demo'd his Martin Logan Depth 1 sub. We played several songs including one with an electronic organ. I was very impressed by the impact of his sub compared to mine. His room has 9' ceilings compared to mine with 11' but his area is quite large with living, dining, and kitchen.

I got home and looked up the Depth 1 specs. It's only 350w but says 900w peaks. It weighs 70 pounds and uses three 8" drivers which are 120 degree angles from each other to avoid cabinet vibrations. It is only spec'd down to 30Hz and retails at $2195.
I have no intention of buying it. I want to upgrade mostly for movie LFE tracks that go below 30Hz plus the price is steep.

I don't see why that sub is so impressive compared to my present one since it has 8" drivers and mine has a 12" driver and almost the same RMS spec. Is it because his is running hot compared to mine? More state of the art design? Lower ceilings?
Anyone have an opinion?

Bill
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#261965 - 05/31/09 11:34 AM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: wilwom]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
I'm guessing placement and loudness.
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#261972 - 05/31/09 12:57 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: Ken.C]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
I'm guessing placement and loudness.

That would certainly be two obvious places to start guessing as to a difference.

Is he running the sub gain at a setting greater than yours?
Is his receiver bumping up the sub signal gain?
Does he have the sub closer to walls?
Three 8" drivers does provide more surface area for air movement vs a single 12" (RMS is not a useful spec).

A few years back i had a friend who was keen on getting the most bass as cheaply as he could. I steered him towards the SVS line and he hasn't fathomed looking anywhere else since, although he has contemplated swapping out his speakers for some others. We settled on a SVS PCi 16-40 and did a comparison some time back with the Axiom EP350.

My thoughts were posted wayyy back here.





Edited by chesseroo (05/31/09 12:58 PM)
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#261988 - 05/31/09 01:34 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: wilwom]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
As someone else mentioned the 3 8"ers will have more displacement than the single 12.

It may also be that ML payed proper attention to the mid/upper bass. A lot of what we perceive as bass, including the punch resides in the upper bass. His mains will also be contributing to this.

Lastly, the ML sub drivers may well be more efficient. I did some modling of two drivers yesterday. One had an efficiency of 85db, the other 94. The higher efficiency sub had greater output starting at around 60Hz. The flip side of this is that the less efficient driver had an additional 7mm of excursion and had considerably more output at 20Hz, but for music the higher efficiency driver would have the distinct advantage, partucularly with a higher cossover.

If your friend has the sub positioned for maximum room gain, he can combine that with higher efficiency to produce some impressive bass.
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#261990 - 05/31/09 01:36 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: chesseroo]
wilwom Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 175
Loc: Denton, TX
Thanks for the link Chess. I think I scanned it once before but have now printed it and will review it very carefully.

My sub is in the corner and I run autocal with my Pioneer then raise the sub level one db. I don't run at extreme levels and mostly watch action movies. I want more low end response for movies but do like music too. I only listened to music on his Depth 1 and he probably has it set pretty hot; but it sounded damn good.

I had decided to get an SVS PC13-Ultra but just hearing that very small sub with 8" drivers sound so good made me wonder if I'm wasting my money. Life is short so I'm going ahead with my plan. What's the easiest/cheapest DVD to use to test for room response so I can take advantage of the one band equalizer?

Bill
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#261992 - 05/31/09 01:52 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: fredk]
wilwom Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 175
Loc: Denton, TX
 Originally Posted By: fredk

It may also be that ML payed proper attention to the mid/upper bass. A lot of what we perceive as bass, including the punch resides in the upper bass. His mains will also be contributing to this.
partucularly with a higher cossover.


Fred, I'm glad you mentioned this. I am going to upgrade my M22s to M60s in the near future; but my Pioneer (which I love) has a universal crossover setting. I use 80Hz crossover so I don't think the M60s will help with bass much. They will help with WAF in a cherry wood cognac finish to match my BDI a/v furniture and getting the M22 off the TV stand will make room for a 65" LCD instead of a 52" so the M60s are just a matter of time.

Bill
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#261993 - 05/31/09 02:01 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: wilwom]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: wilwom
I am going to upgrade my M22s to M60s in the near future; but my Pioneer (which I love) has a universal crossover setting. I use 80Hz crossover so I don't think the M60s will help with bass much. T

Bill

Turn the universal crossover down, if you have that option, and run the M60s near to the point of their natural roll off letting the sub handle bass below that point.
Compared to the M22, the extra sound volume overall is stellar. I have a personal review of those somewhere back as well. One of my first posts.

The bass xover for our M60s is set around 50-55Hz with our EP350 (i run the main speakers on full range and use the EP350 xover knob for control).
An excellent blend.



Edited by chesseroo (05/31/09 02:01 PM)
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#262005 - 05/31/09 04:07 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: chesseroo]
wilwom Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 175
Loc: Denton, TX
Thanks again Chess. My receiver does have a 50Hz selection. Once I get the M60s I will try that. My only concern will be the VP150 and QS8's but I just won't use 7 channel surround mode.

Stereo mode will be fine. I wonder if movie tracks have any center or surround content below 80Hz anyway?

Bill
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#262006 - 05/31/09 04:18 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: wilwom]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: wilwom
Thanks again Chess. My receiver does have a 50Hz selection. Once I get the M60s I will try that. My only concern will be the VP150 and QS8's but I just won't use 7 channel surround mode.

Stereo mode will be fine. I wonder if movie tracks have any center or surround content below 80Hz anyway?

Bill

My receiver only has a single universal xover at 80Hz. Depending on one's surround speakers, this xover is below their rated lower range anyway.
Since LFE is coded for a subwoofer and not a surround channel, you will not notice a difference for movies. However, in a full channel 7 speaker usage, that's a bit different.

I can't say i know alot of people that use this feature but i do have one friend who insists using it for sports programming. He apparently feels it sounds more like the stadium compared to using say DPLII or any other DSP.
Personally i think it sounds like crap and i really don't want to hear the announcer call a game from my complete right hand side, closest to that surround speaker.
That to me is unnatural compared to hearing the announcer from the tv screen area.
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#262015 - 05/31/09 06:49 PM Re: Martin Logan Depth 1 - How do they do it? [Re: chesseroo]
wilwom Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 175
Loc: Denton, TX
I just got through recalibrating my system. I guess we had a power outage a few weeks ago and my Pioneer does not remember the calibration settings. I kicked up my sub by 1db as usual and now it sounds like I remember the Martin Logan with music.

I guess I can't complain about a 7 year old $580 sub that compares against a $2195 sub. I won't tell my neighbor.

I'm still going to get the SVS PC13-Ultra for low end and then later the M60s for appearance and function. Thanks.

Bill
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