Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Two Cents Wanted - AVR, PR, Screen

Well, I'm finally pulling the trigger on a projector and a new AVR to run the show. For background, I have a small HT, semi-light controlled, as such. . However, I do plan to do a good bit of game day viewing, where light control will be a bigger problem. Planning on getting the Panasonic AU3000 projector and the Denon 3808 AVR. I almost put my money down on the new 4310, but not sure it is worth an extra $1,000 to get DPLIIz and Anchor Bay upscaling.

I would like any input those with experience with projectors and the new AVRs have to offer. I also am looking for the cheapest possible quality screen (gray and 106"). Thanks for the input.

Agree with the Panny and Denon, I built my own screen using material from Dazian and building a frame. Much cheaper and same quality picture as mfg'd brands.

Just what I was looking for, thanks.

Quick question, Dazian's grey screen has a gain of 1.6. I thought grey screens would have a lower gain to reduce ambient light reflections? Do I have this wrong, or is they screen just a different bird?

I used their matte white with a gain of 1.0 I believe, I think gray will give you better contrast and blacks, but that Panny does a pretty good job as is...the gray might not be as bright, especially in a room that you can't control the light.

I built my own screen as well. I used a recipe for paint that I found on the AVS forum and painted a 4'X 8' sheet of plastic wall panel. We had a very challenging room (lots of windows and daylight) but the little projector (optoma H31) and this screen performed well. The paint recipe should be easy to find it included a Behr metallic paint.

Probably more than you want to spend………

Stewart Firehawk. Fantastic grey screen. 1.3 REAL gain. Minuscule hot spots and still keeps a large viewing cone. Call AVS for pricing. I got my 96” wide 2.35 for $1700.

My two favorite projectors are: Planer 8150 and the RS20. Both have pro’s and con’s. AVS sell both for about $5500.

3808 all the way. No need to spend more. Pick up an Oppo BD83 and you’ll be set.

I was a long time member on the DIY Screen forum. Many paint formulas through the years, Super Deluxe, the various Behr versions, Mississippi Mud (one of the best), Roll methods, spray methods, etc... and finally using a mirror...

If done properly, especially with an HPLV spray gun you can get great results. For me, with all the testing, trial/error, I ended up using the Dazian screen material. They provide screens for the big movie houses.

Another option is Parkland Plastics Duro Therm panels. Usually can be found at home improvement stores. You want the thicker stuff (honey comb) smooth on one side. Works fantastic for a screen.

http://www.parklandplastics.com/durotherm.shtml

I think Menards stocks 4ft x 9ft sheets

Depending on the amount of light control you have, my $150 DIY screen made of Wilsonart, Designer White (D354-60 ) laminate is proving to give fabulous results. I generally view with blinds over my one window that block all but ambient light and with a dimmer set just high enough to provide safe navigation in the room. Pretty dark, but not so you can't easily navigate or see to pick up your food or drink.

I've cranked up the lighting a ways too and it still performs wonderfully. The strength of your projector is, of course, also a big factor here.

If you are interested, here is an extremely informative thread (if you ignore his rant as he argues with a salesperson) that includes color and gain charts and very good directions on how to frame and mount it. Some photos of results too although I'm disappointed he used different scenes to display the different laminate colors.

Laminate Projector Screens

Lots of other info on Laminate and Paint for screens if you Google. Purchased screens are, of course, a much easier choice.

Great stuff, just the kind of brain food I needed. I am a big DIY fan, but for some reason I fear I would be disappointed with the DIY screen. But given the enormous savings, I may have to try it. I do have an HPLV spray gun so that should help get a good coat.

And I'll check out the Planar projectors, as I had not looked at those.

Planar, comes from the Runco and Vidikron family. Real nice projector.

Very good thread. I had not thought of laminates a being such a good product for this, but it sounds interesting and very easy for me to try.

Many thanks.

Every time that I read about DIY screens I think of Goo, although I've not used it or seen the results first-hand.

I just have a series concern about the ability to get a perfectly flat finish. I you pay for a 1080p projector, I don't want my floating techniques to impair the image. I'm leaning towards the laminate for v.1.0.

Well, the Panny 3000 should be here today (according to UPS). I have held off on the 3808/4310 decision as I can't find any info on the 4310. I'll run the system in duct-tape mode to see how well the Panny scales the weak cable signal, and then decide if the older 3808 is good enough, or if I need the new Anchor Bay chip on the 4310.

I'll let you know how it looks - and yes I'll send pics.

Let us know how the 3000 is, I am debating between this one and the Epson 6500UB

It is not really fair to comment on the 3000 at this point, as I'm projecting it on a flat white wall with smudges, etc. But, that has convinced me I need a gray screen. The image is fantastic in total darkness, and from 15 feet can easily make a 120+ image (rough measure). But lights or light leakage really wash out the screen...I mean wall!.

Dark Knight looked great, but a little short of the pop from my 720p DLP RP set - again, on a wall. The only thing that did not look right was a baseball from 3r to first, that showed 3 balls as it traveled. Strange, since the Panny has a frame correction function. Still learning the tools so it might be fixable.

All in all, easy set up, good picture out the box, but not as bright as I hoped. Light control in progress and grey screen on the way. I'll check in when I get those done to give a more fair and accurate test. For daytime lit room viewing, better get a big RP or LCD screen.

For what it is worth, the sales guy at Projector People said the two are very close, but he likes the Panny better for image quality.

The Panny seems to be a little cheaper and have a few more nice options, and I love most Panasonic product, I've owned bucketloads of it over the years with no issues. My buddy has last years Epson, the 1080UB, and that thing looks fantastic. I'll probably just go with whichever one is the best deal at the time.

I'm still working off a white wall, so there is a limit to how good it can look, but still impressed. It is amazing to blow up an image to 120" and still get such clarity. I'll go smaller once I get a screen, but for LSU's run in the World Series the wall-size image has been great. Now I see why that Goo paint is so popular - so size limits.

Your 1,000th post, and you used the magic word: "Goo".

Congratulations!

Nice. Watched The Incredibles with the kids last night. They loved it. So did I. Very impressive - if you have a dark room.

I thought digital photography rendered dark rooms obsolete?

Dark rooms are still a vital tool for ugly people who are looking to get lucky.

Ok, I really need a screen. The smudges on my front wall are upsetting me (I had the center ch mounted in the middle of the screen/wall, when i used my RPTV). Given that this is a white wall, I'm not thrilled by the brightness (because I can't spell luminescence???) of the projector. Any light really washes out the pic. But on the whole, given the price point, I can't complain at all. The image is better than my 720p 50", and I can easily get a 120" image. At night, movies like the Dark Knight are stellar, absolutely better than a movie theater - not even close.

I'll try to have more useful information in my next post.

Stewart - spend the money. You won't regret it. You’ll have the screen much longer than the projector, most likely several projectors.

Agreed, screens are relatively cheap compared to everything else. I have had good luck with Carada.

I was leaning towards cheaper, as I can't see much technical difference in the material used, and I don't mind building the frame. But I'm starting to come around to your way of looking at this. Perhaps I should just bite the bullet and get a proven screen.

I've gone both routes. From making one, to inexpensive to Stewart. Sure wish I would have just bought the damn Stewart from day one. I would give them a call, tell them about your set up, and they will tell you what screen you need. Then call AVS and get a price. I'd also suggest you get a 2.35 screen as well.

That is exactly my situation; I had planned for DIY, but my time for practice runs is really low right now. Two questions: (1) does AVS have discounts on Stewart, and (2) is the sacrifice on the 2.35 in terms of 16:9 height really worth it? My max width is about 105 inches so that would cut about 10 inches off my 16:9 height if I go with a 2.35 over 16:9.

As for Stewart, I was leaning towards Carada based on a good flow of info from customer service, but Da-Lite prices are lower. So far, I can't really see a difference in all the screens except the frame. I have not come across great Stewart prices and I am at about max budget for the screen in the Carada/Da-Lite price range.

Last, anybody with a semi-light controlled room and a decent LCD display, please let me know your thoughts on White v. Gray. I have so much conflicting information that I'm now lost. Before I spend almost $1000 on a product, I'd like to feel like I have a reason for picking one over the other. Carada says go with Brilliant White, and some on AVS seem to have had success with that. General advice seems to Grey. Da-Lite's screen selection engine offers about 9 "fits" ranging from matte white, to bright white, to high contrast grey. WTF? How can every screen be recomended based on the 197 criteria they make you input?

Help!

I feel your pain. I’ve been following this thread with interest as I’m also in the hunt for a projector and screen and feel like I’ve been chasing my tail for months.

You might consider calling Projector People

All of the feedback I’ve read on them is outstanding. Maybe they could help with some unbiased feedback on what screen will work best for your situation. Also some screen manufactures will send samples of their material which might help you check out how they will hold up to the light.

How is the Panny holding up. Seems like every projector out there in the 2k-5k range has some issue or another. I think I’ve narrowed my choices down to the Panasonic PT-AE3000 and the Epson 6500UB. However, AFAIR Epson releases their new models around September so I might wait to see what they have in store.

Have you used the lens memory feature on your projector much. I will be doing a lot of switching between 1.33 to 1, 1.78 to 1 and 2.35 to 1 and wondered just how well the lens feature worked.

Thanks for posting your experience, your thread is much easier to follow than the ones over at AVS.

Cheers,
Dean

What, you don't have time to read 1,987 pages of multi-conversation-threads on AVS. Holy Cow, they need a better structure than just "Panny 3000 owners".

I got the PJ from Projector People and have nothing but good things to say about them. I had a multi-week email conversation with one of the sales reps, and he was very helpful and easy to deal with - no pressure, no B.S. (He said the Panny was a tad better than the Epson.) But, they sell a small selection of screens, so I felt like they were not the best source for unbiased opinion on that front. After further searching, perhaps they are, as I'm starting to think it does not matter much as long as the product is of decent build quality.

As for the lens memory, i have not used it because I have a full wall right now and Zoom is so easy that I have not taken the time to figure out how to use the memory. I keep thinking I'll wait until I have a set size to zoom to/from.

Finally, in case my experience helps, no problems with the Panny so far. I have been using it about 4 hours a night on average for an even split of BR, HD-Cable, and PS3 games. (Around 100 hours total I guess.) Bear in mind this is on a flat white wall.

BRs - stellar. At 120" screen size, the blacks on this projector (in a dark room) are much better than my DLP Samsung RPTV of 2005 720p variety. The black bars on 2.35 film are barely noticeable, but then again, the rest of the wall is white off-screen so the apparent contrast is enhanced I guess. Color pops, depth is very good. Not intensely bright, but natural. The settings are very good, and often I can't tell which I like better as all except Dynamic look really good with no obvious push. Waiting for the screen to really calibrate it.

HDTV - much more semi-light controlled for this source as I tend to watch BR's at night after the kids are asleep. Of course cable can't compare to BR. But with that limit, the pictures are very good. I'm constantly stunned by the quality of flesh. Black skin, for example, has a real depth of tone I was not used to seeing on my old TV. Sports are great, but worried a bit about fast action sports. A baseball moving from 3rd to 1st tends to flash 3 balls in flight. The PJ has about 5 settings for motion, but I could not cure it. I don't watch much baseball so I need to compare it to another broadcast, might have been a cable bandwidth issue. I have watched a few NFL replays from the NFL Network, and see no issues on motion there - that would have been a deal killer as LSU gets ready for another National Championship!!!!!

PS3 - If you are not a gamer, sorry, you are missing out. First Person Shooters on a 120" screen 15 feet in front of you is damn hard not to like. It is like being there. [Said from the comfort of my HT having zero real world appreciation for such an intense event that plays out every day so I can, in fact, sit on my arse playing games.] Asinine comparisons to war aside, the experience is like 3D compared to TV, your brain is just presented with something more like reality and that adds to the experience greatly.
Also, I notice less (if any) delay in video processing as compared to my DLP. There may be some delay, but way better.

Last, the manual sucks. It is the far end of the spectrum of crap from Denon. It is easy to understand, but tells you nothing. Many pages of explanations like this: "Dynamic Image Stabilizing Ion Control Thrust Inhibitor - this function toggles the Dynamic Image Stabilizing Ion Control Thrust Inhibitor on and off." Holy Crap, i would not have guessed that. Good luck finding out what it does to the image. Better have Google at the ready.

But for a small HT on a budget, I have to give it 5 thumbs up. At this point, it looks like the damn screen may cost as much as the projector. In other words, for less than a good 40" LCD TV you get a damn impressive wall of glorious 1080p. Hard to go wrong even if another projector is as good, or slightly better in some way.

I’m with you here. Unless something drastic happens to change my mind I’m planning to get a Carada Precision Series 1.78 to 1 Brilliant White. I’m getting the BW since I can have total light/reflection control if I want it. Though this time I’m doing that incrementally rather than all at once (resulting in overkill) like in my apartment. After having complete darkness in my apartment I’m a firm believer in this:



Audyssey DSX 10.2 Surround Sound Overview



Please let me know how it works out if you end up with your screen before I commit to a projector. I plan on having my projector on a stand just behind my seating (only one row for now) so I’ll have easy access to make changes.


Big gamer and probably will be 1/3 use. I love my Samsung DLP but I want bigger for more immersion. I’m planning on a 142” diagonal screen sitting about 15 feet away. Again if you get your screen before I purchase I’d love to hear how the shadow details are. That’s been my one complaint about the DLP is that in many dark scenes in games things in the shadows are hard to make out.

About equal use will be up scaled standard DVDs. Haven’t been in a big hurry to get a BD player since I have a huge backlog of DVDs to watch most of which are animated and upscale very nicely.

Also equal use will be as a computer monitor for gaming. Plan to maintain the DLP or a wall mounted LCD for general use. Have you hooked it up to a computer yet. I only play strategy games on the PC so lag time shouldn’t be an issue and since the image size can be adjusted I’m guessing over/under scan isn’t a problem.


The only thing that’s holding me back on the Panny vs the Epson is the ghost turd (dust ball) issues many people have had. Based on reading a lot, I think the Panny will be the best choice for image based on Projectorreviews.com comments that it has slightly better shadow detail than the Epson which I think will be more important for gaming than the slightly higher brightness and better black levels of the Epson. Of course the Epson also has issues as it seems like lots of people are having convergence and dead pixels problems.

Regarding the white vs grey issue... Grey will give you better black levels, white will give you better brightness. You're (unfortunately) going to have to choose which is more important to you. If you have ultimate light control you could probably go with grey. A good friend of mine has an Epson 1080UB (last years 6500UB) with a Carada white (normal one, not the higher gain one) and in total darkness it is definately more than bright enough.

Grey is better for rooms with ambient light, but you loose gain with grey screens. There are a couple positive gain grey screens, one being Stewart’s FireHawk. There is a silver screen that’s high gain as well, but they’re expensive as hell ($5000). AVS sells Stewart at good prices. You might be surprised. If you have a totally light controlled room, then stick with white. When going with a 2.35 screen, you want to size it off of screen height. You can get away with a wider screen, but if you go too high, you will have a lot of eye strain.

Dean – have you considered the JVC RS-10?

Update, I watched Wimbolton, and ball flight did not render the problem i mentions with the baseballs (triple images). At 138 mph, I think that cures any concern I had about that. Must have been a cheap Cox bandwidth issue.

Good to hear, AE3000 sounds like a good unit

Ordered the 118" Carada Brilliant White screen yesterday. Once I get it up I'll report back - and send some pics for the visualy stimulated ilk. For whatever it is worth, I chose Carada because (1) I can't see much difference in the materials used, although Stewart has better terms, (2) Carada had very good service before the sale, with easy access to knowledgeable folk, and finally (3) every reference I could find to Carada was positive, while the volume was low. Stewart realy seems to have their stuff toghether, but all the THX certifications and the like just price it above Carada.

I'll let you know how it works out some time next week.

Well, the Carada screen is up and looks great. With the screen, you can see the subtle differences between the various modes on the Panny 3000. It's fine with some ambient light, but have not tried it for daytime sports. But I'm happy with the purchase. Carada is very solid. The shipment was fast and trouble free. The build was easy, and the screen fits perfectly without a wrinkle or blemish. Images have more pop now, and the black trim works great to really set the image off as if on a TV screen. The darks stay nice and black even with the 1.4 gain - a plus for the Panny.
And by the way, 118 is huge in my room. I chose the smaller trim version to keep it as small as possible, and glad I did as not much room to spare.

I'll get some pics up later, but you get the gist - big white rectangle with black trim.

How much later?

have you ever seen "The Naked Guy" episode of "How I Met Your Mother"? You don't need a dark room, just use this guys strategy. 'Works two out of three times!'

Never seen anybody as excited about a white rectangle as you Mark. Enjoy!


As with most good things in life, it is much better with the lights off!



If this weren't so damn shaky (for low light ) you could see my "Precious". But for this, I guess it just shows that your view is consumed with 1080p.

...and some music


I'll try to get some better screen shots, but that does not show much so don't wait by your screen...Mark.

pfffft.... I'm waiting.......

Very nice white rectangle!

Hey, when your world is square, rectangles are just living wild!

Well, in case anyone is still checking this thread, I'll report in: Simply put, F'n love'n the projector. I'm guessing there is minimal difference between the big hitters in this low price range, but damn the size and clarity is impressive. The picture is so clear, even at 118" from 15 ft, that I was able to move the sitting position closer and make some room for a second row when crowds show up.

Hoping to get some color tweaking and saving done this weekend, but Normal is damn fine for sports, and Cinema 1, (created by some Hollywood guru) is very good for softer film-like images. Cinema 3 is actually a tad better for that razor sharp HD feel.

Anyway, looks great, sounds better without the TV and stand in the room, and so far no problems with the screen or the PJ. Next I paint the walls red all the way up, and the ceiling a 50% red. Then we sell tickets!

"In the red room, with black curtains....."

Hey, that song's in 5/4 timing....Ken, ya payin' attenshun!!

Well, I owe everyone watching this an update on one specific point: motion blur. My old 50" Samsung RPTV never had problems with motion blur, that I noticed. But I had some initial fears about motion blur on sports with the Panny 3000. I dismissed them later, but my worst fear has come true: footballs moving fast don't look right. I have not wanted to test this issue on reruns as I don't know the quality. But last night on Monday Night Football (on a Thursday) I saw the dreaded motion blur on long passes. I need to try it with the various frame correction modes tonight as the Saints play, but damn that smarts. I really didn't think this was an issue.

Not a deal killer, still a brilliant picture, but would prefer the picture window did not remind me it was fact every time the ball went more than 20 yards.

FWIW, when I first got my DLP, I saw rainbows. I don't anymore... as a matter of fact, I stopped seeing them after a few weeks.

I don't have any explanation for it, other than maybe my eyes kind of got used to it. I'm sure that the DLP didn't break in, and I'm sure that my eyes didn't get broken in. I think somewhere along the lines, my brain stopped looking for it or something. That was almost five years ago.

Before you get too bummed, give it a bit of time and see what happens. It might just be that you were looking so hard to see it.

And don't let it ruin football for you by watching too closely.

It's not like the Saints have a shot anyways!

Zinger!!!!

Thanks for the update I was wondering about that myself since football is the only U.S. sport I watch anymore.

I’m still holding off on making a purchase partly to see if anything interesting is announced at CEDIA but also since I’m waiting to see when the Sherwood Newcastle N R-972 shows up here on the Axiom site.

I get some ghosting on my Samsung 6 series on some TV stations. I'm not sure if this is because those stations are not in HD or if it's the TV, but I didn't really expect to see that on a 120hz system.

Just to confuse the issue more, the Saints game (via a crappy local HD telecast) did NOT present this problem. It is very strange and hard to explain. Tennis is fine, even with 130mph serves - no blur. 99% of Football is fine, pans are done perfect, no pixelation, no stair steps, etc. The only issue I have seen is a throw from third base to first and a deep bomb pass. On each, on some broadcast, you get a very weird "hyperspace" effect. In essences, the ball non longer takes up a single block of pixels, but looks like a Star Trek ship in hyperspace where the ball is 6 times longer than it should be, almost like a trial behind the ball. I made sure it was on "Fast" motion last night so perhaps that helps.

Sorry to toss out problems without in depth answers, but I know Dean and others were contemplating a purchase. I feel certain that over the next few weeks I can watch enough good format football to give some test answers. Just hard to reproduce that kind of broadcast for testing. I'll try to DVR a few bombs if I can nail it down. Either way, I'll figure it out as I watch hours of football starting the first second it's on. But, 99% of football is great. Heck, at 120" it is better than live. Even the girls in the group said they did not know how they could watch football on their little 50" plasmas when they got home. I liked that!

Do not underestimate that the blurs are often present from the source (camera adjustments, layers of processing to add the fake lines...). It is not always the TV that does the "hyperspace effects".

Is it a case of some networks broadcasting 1080i v. 720P?

It could be, which is why I hesitated to over react. But ESPN is generally one of the best pictures here. HBO, on the other hand is BAAAADDD. So when I say hyperspace balls on ESPN I was not pleased. I watched the entire Saints game (yes, they won) and never saw the problem.

At this point, I just don't know. But still, if I had to rate the projector - 4 out of 5 at worst, and I consider this issue pretty huge, so that is a damn good rating. For less than a top plasma, I got a 120" 1080p image that is awesome.

Well Zimm I finally did it. Ordered an AE4000 and a Carada Brilliant White 134” 1.78 screen yesterday. Your feedback here helped me make my choice so I just wanted to say thanks.

Cheers,
Dean

Oh, man, I'm jealous. I can't wait to read about you setting it all up.

They already have 4000? Mine is a 3000. Great, now I have lumens envy again!

It really has been great, you won't regret it. And the Carada screen is fantastic, even close up. 134" is BIG - mine is 118" but the wife says its the way i use it, not the size of my screen that matters. The wife and I were just saying last night how impressive the image is to watch anything. Football is just real. Even and old DVD of Swiss Family Robinson was great. The old grain was there, but it was shocking how the old film felt old, but had really great images of a great setting. Still working on a bit of red push, but have not calibrated yet (too busy enjoying it!).

And video games are just sick - but watch out for the lag!

Here’s what U.S. sites have out on it so far:

Projector Central

Projector Reviews Blog

I figured I’d dragged my feet long enough I waited for the CEDIA conference unfortunately Panasonic didn’t announce the AE4000 for the U.S. Meanwhile I was talking with some high end custom installers who got back to me Monday with a great deal on a JVS HS20. When I told him about the AE4000 announcement he looked it up while I was talking with him and said for my needs the AE4000 was a no-brainer.

The screen is huge. I spent the weekend with my HDTV in various locations to simulate screen sizes I have taped to my wall. It came down to a 126” or the 134” as the 142” was just way to big. I emailed Carada about my intentions and they said that they didn’t see any problems with my using a 134” screen with the AE4000 in my room. Should I find the lumens aren’t enough or the screen is just too high with the M80s center for other viewers (my test showed no problems for me) I have a couple of options. One is just to mask the screen down to a usable surface area for projector brightness and height. And since I can’t actually mount the screen to the wall (no wall for 2/3s of the width) I plan to make it adjustable in height so I could drop it down and switch to M22 center(s) if needed.

Honestly, I don't think you will mask it. With the light control you have, I don't see a problem in your future.

Very