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#272496 - 09/15/09 03:41 PM New M22 speakers.... break-in required?
gulf979cb Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 13
Hi all...

Just received a sweet pair of M22V2 speakers.
Just curious if there is any break-in required or can i
just go at-em right from the get-go? Obviously...nothing too crazy volume-wise...but a good solid action movie shouldn't do any harm correct?


Have read lots of things on lots of forums regarding this subject. Some say...yeah it is required...and some say....don't bother.
Can a quality built speaker such as these actually change that much after an extended amount of time?
Are there quality guidelines in regard to how much they are expected to change if at all?

Or is all this just Bull-*hit?

Opinions?
Thanks....

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#272499 - 09/15/09 03:43 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: gulf979cb]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
One vote for just BS. \:\)

Enjoy your new speakers. Now.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#272501 - 09/15/09 03:51 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: tomtuttle]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Take it easy for the first few hundred cycles*.





*1000 Hz is 1000 cycles per second.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#272504 - 09/15/09 04:04 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: gulf979cb]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Gulf,

Nah, like TomTuttle says, it's BS.

Any actual mechanical break-in of the motor/cone/dome assembly takes place within seconds of your firing them up.

Of course, there is a psycho-acoustical break-in of your ear/brain hearing system since those little woofers and tweeters are pumping like crazy to mimic real sounds and instrumental sound. That's what break-in really is.

Enjoy the M22s.

Regards,
Alan
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#272506 - 09/15/09 04:10 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: ClubNeon]
gulf979cb Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 13
OOOOO....this should get good.....
One vote for yes...and 2 for BS!!
Granted the "yes" vote is for a 1/4 second of break-in but this should still get good.
What-say-u folks??....chime in....!!
I'll get the chips and beer!!!

Hopefully someone from Axiom themselves will pipe in and tell us the real deal!!
wait ...just noticed that Alan is the resident expert!!!!
that"s good enough for me!!


Edited by gulf979cb (09/15/09 04:15 PM)

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#272508 - 09/15/09 04:20 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: gulf979cb]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I'm on the side of BS too. Was just trying to make a bit of a joke. As Alan also said, the break-in happens the first time the cone starts to move. I believe the drivers are tested before assembly, which means you don't even get to break them in; someone else did it for you.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

Top
#272509 - 09/15/09 04:21 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: ClubNeon]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
You guys are all full of it....break in does happen. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#272510 - 09/15/09 04:36 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
No break in is needed. I'm with everyone else on this that it is BS.
_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#272516 - 09/15/09 05:17 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: BlueJays1]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
It is not BS at all. I let my Bose 301s break-in and they improved. First I put them in the garage. Then Katrina put a Live Oak through the garage. Then I let the 301s marinate in the crushed open-top garage for about 4 months. Pulled out the crushed speakers and plugged them in...what do you know, them high-falutin paper cones sounded just a touch better between 11.7 and 83.98 hz. I think it was the tree sap, but could have been the 4 month baking/wetting/baking cycle. They are for sale if anyone wants to experience the best of Bose.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#272518 - 09/15/09 05:24 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Zimm]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida

_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#272519 - 09/15/09 05:34 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: RickF]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6721
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
 Originally Posted By: RickF


Ditto
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#272521 - 09/15/09 05:51 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Zimm]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Central NH
 Originally Posted By: Zimm
them high-falutin paper cones sounded just a touch better between 11.7 and 83.98 hz. {{SNIPPED}} They are for sale if anyone wants to experience the best of Bose.


Jesus, if they reproduce 11.7 Hz, I'm interested in buying them!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#272522 - 09/15/09 05:53 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, tell me about it.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#272523 - 09/15/09 05:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Zimm]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Charles, your killing me \:D

Really, I'm not surprised Katrina improves Bose speakers, what with the "Wave" technology and all that.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#272527 - 09/15/09 06:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
gulf979cb Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 13
I love the BS meter......
I need one of those for work....

Constantly being fed a healthy diet of the stuff.....nice to know how saturated i am getting.

Thanks for all the input....
I knew this thread would get a lot of attention.

By the way....the speakers sound amazing....replaced an older Onkyo HTIB fronts.
Obviously no comparison.....

Good quality and seriously good sounding Axiom speakers.....Like no other.... for the price that is \:\)

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#272529 - 09/15/09 06:37 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: gulf979cb]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Another vote for "no break-in required". It's a fair question - anything with mating metal surfaces still seems to benefit from some kind of gentle break-in period - but speakers don't really have any such surfaces to break in. The cone and voice coil are suspended by elastic components (surround / spider) and I haven't found anyone who claims that the properties of those components change appreciably in the first hours of use.

If the new speakers have a significantly different sound from your previous ones then it will take some time for that sound to seem "natural" to you, and if your family is used to action movies being played quietly there will be a break-in period there as well ;\)


Edited by bridgman (09/15/09 06:38 PM)

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#272536 - 09/15/09 07:55 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: RickF]
Kruncher Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 484
Loc: Maple Ridge, BC
RickF, thanks for what was by FAR the best laugh of the day.

I have so many uses for that graphic, you have no idea...

Oh, and FWIW, +1 for no break in required. Total myth.

Top
#272543 - 09/15/09 09:55 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: gulf979cb]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
Greg, welcome. I've got over 20,000 hours in the last 7 1/2 years on my M22s and they still haven't changed. So, if there's a break-in period it must be rather long. Enjoy the great sound.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#272545 - 09/15/09 10:08 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: JohnK]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
 Quote:
I've got over 20,000 hours in the last 7 1/2 years on my M22s


That reminds me......where's that 7 1/2 year M22's review?
_________________________
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)

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#272549 - 09/15/09 10:21 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: LT61]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
7 1/2 year M22 review: classical music still sounds great on the M22s. "Upgrade"(neither music nor speakers)not needed.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#272565 - 09/16/09 07:24 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: JohnK]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6860
Loc: PEI, Canada
Just a quick note to mention that somebody from Axiom did indeed chime in. Alan is an official representative for Axiom on these boards. While I don't believe he actually works at the factory he is often resourced for product testing. The flashy letter "A" above his name explains his always useful insight into their products and what he can't answer, he goes straight to the source for us.

And when you praise him up like this, he arranges to send you free speakers...........Wait, phone is ringing.................Ummmm, that was Alan. Ummm apparently you don't get free speakers and I must also refrain from asking if he has any hot daughters who are into Hi Fi.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#272571 - 09/16/09 12:44 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: bridgman]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7123
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: bridgman
It's a fair question - anything with mating metal surfaces still seems to benefit from some kind of gentle break-in period

That reminds me of my introduciton to 'break-in' in the Auto industry during a tour of a Ford plant in the '70s. 20' of rubber off the end of the line and out the door. Another one gently broken in...
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#272574 - 09/16/09 01:32 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: JohnK]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
I'll have to comment later.......after I find the time, to read through your review. ;\)
_________________________
LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)

Top
#272627 - 09/17/09 01:51 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: LT61]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
I agree speaker break-in for the most part is BS but I can't help but wonder if the xover caps and inductors electrical properties somehow change and this is what people are perceiving? Audioholics did some tests on drivers basically proving driver changes are BS and the slight changes are only on the low end (did he test various sizes of drivers?). Thing is he didn't test a speaker with an xover only single drivers and none larger than 6.5". I have heard perceived break-in on a standalone LFE sub woofer that was noticeable but that sub at 15" has one huge spider. As for your full range loudspeakers with no drivers larger than 6", it's BS for the most part though again I can't help but wonder if the xover circuit's properties change somehow. Considering there is a plethora of cap materials/design I'm curious why someone hasn't tested the xovers to see if that's where these perceived changes are originating. A better test schedule would be test entire speaker as a system (xover, drivers and cab) then test individual drivers and then the xover components.

Solid-State

PS Cap break-in study


Edited by SolidState (09/17/09 01:59 PM)

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#272628 - 09/17/09 01:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
They may change with age, but I'm sure it is not audible, but then again I like to just sit back, listen, and drink a cold one.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

Top
#272629 - 09/17/09 02:23 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7123
Loc: Canada
... and munch popcorn?
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#272631 - 09/17/09 02:28 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
Well I've been building my own speakers and xovers for about 6 months and I've replaced caps in my Butterworth (hate the +3dB but I'm not smart enough for a Linkwitz Riley... YET) and have noticed a cap with the same specs made of different materials sounds different. This is without break-in even and is known by any DIY EE people. These changes were confirmed with RTA.

Solid-State

PS This is why I was concerned about the Axiom xover in that horrible thread... I noticed that Ian added a high pass filter to the V2 mid. I'm also VERY CURIOUS why magnets are glued to the back of each driver... I have yet to hear an answer to that one!


Edited by SolidState (09/17/09 02:45 PM)

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#272633 - 09/17/09 02:44 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
u got me, I've got more important things to worry about, like making beer and wine. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

Top
#272634 - 09/17/09 02:52 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
You guys are all so passionate about audio as is attest-able on the form posts. Don't any of you have a curiosity to try to understand this stuff? It's really not as complicated as you would think. Yeah the math can be tough but software is available these days that can help you bigtime. The more I've learned about this stuff the more I realize how hard it is to make a speaker that performs like the Axioms at their price point! It's one hell of an accomplishment! That's for dam sure...

Solid-State


Edited by SolidState (09/17/09 03:02 PM)

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#272635 - 09/17/09 03:11 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: SolidState
I'm also VERY CURIOUS why magnets are glued to the back of each driver... I have yet to hear an answer to that one!

Probably because you have half the forum ignoring you...

The reason for the magnets is to cancel the stray field for placement on/near a CRT display.

P.S. They're called "bucking magnets".


Edited by ClubNeon (09/17/09 03:21 PM)
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#272636 - 09/17/09 03:14 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
I will try a DIY project once I've researched the hell out of speaker design. It's mostly the crossover's that I find baffling(no pun intended). I have yet to buy any books on design/theory, but so far have been browsing a number of websites to gather more info. I have a rather basic understanding of how crossovers work but there are obviously alot of variables involved and without both an understanding of what is actually "heard" when one makes certain changes or a way to accurately measure them it can be somewhat daunting. Nevertheless, I think with enough research, and some software to get "in the ballpark", I believe it would be extremely rewarding to build some nice speakers. I've contacted Solen, and they informed me that they would actually help with the process by recommending certain driver combinations, design the crossover for you(provided you buy the parts from them), or for a modest fee will build a pair of crossovers for you based on the driver manufacturer's data and your goals. They'll make recommendations on the type of crossover and crossover points ect.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#272637 - 09/17/09 03:15 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
I'm also VERY CURIOUS why magnets are glued to the back of each driver... I have yet to hear an answer to that one!

You're probably looking at the magnetic shielding material. They prevent the magnetic field from emanating beyond the driver, so you can place the speakers near TVs, pacemakers, etc. \:\)

They don't affect the magnetic field inside the driver.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#272639 - 09/17/09 03:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7123
Loc: Canada
I'm with you Adrien. I like building stuff, but crossovers and the like are a steep learning curve.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#272640 - 09/17/09 03:35 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Back at you Frad!
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#272641 - 09/17/09 03:49 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
The funny thing is, I don't find the math or cross-over design work hard at all. Where my dreams of DiY speaker building come to a halt is working with the materials to build the cabinets.

That said, if I were building my ultimate speaker, it would be tri-amped, with the amps strapped to the enclosure. It would take a digital feed. The cross-over work would be done in the digital domain to maintain phase alignment perfectly. Then three separate DACs feeding each of the power amps. Or even better, those "power DACs" which take PCM and use it to drive the class D amp directly.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

Top
#272643 - 09/17/09 03:53 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: ClubNeon]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
owhh ok so it's a type of shielding? Ahh so it acts like Mu metal? owhh wow I didn't know that! Thanks for the info ClubNeon! There is so much to learn! Back to the books...

Solid-State

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#272644 - 09/17/09 04:02 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Chris!! you and I need to talk!!
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#272645 - 09/17/09 04:05 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: alan]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: alan
Hi Gulf,

Nah, like TomTuttle says, it's BS.

Any actual mechanical break-in of the motor/cone/dome assembly takes place within seconds of your firing them up.

Of course, there is a psycho-acoustical break-in of your ear/brain hearing system since those little woofers and tweeters are pumping like crazy to mimic real sounds and instrumental sound. That's what break-in really is.

Enjoy the M22s.

Regards,
Alan


The mechanical component of break in is what has always made me leery about powering the power to new speakers. This is the first time someone has actually spoken to it. – thank you.

I would still apply some common sense to this though. The elastic material (regardless of what it happens to be) still needs to flex a bit before it is exercised at 100% I think. It’s no different that a bicycle tire. You need to inflate the tube and give it a pretty good stretch, and then deflate it before installing it in the tire or you will have a premature failure.

I would also be hesitant to fire up a new set of speakers and pour the power to them before allowing them a few hours to reach room temperature. That is for the folks who live in the colder hemisphere. Things become quite brittle when they are cold.
_________________________


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#272646 - 09/17/09 04:06 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
I have a similar dream to build a line array using the RD75 for mid, woofers and planar PDR tweeters in line arrays for low and high. I also would like to power them tri-amp active DSP xover. I've found some interesting active DSP xovers for pro PA line array work that would do the trick for around $1500 and have balanced stereo in with 6 outs with decent DSP and converters. The cost of such a project is gotta be over $5k \:\(

Solid-State

PS considering custom high end outfits build such speakers into the walls of $100k plus theater rooms I guess $5k isn't that bad!


Edited by SolidState (09/17/09 04:09 PM)

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#272648 - 09/17/09 04:16 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
The problem one runs into these days when wanting to do work in the digital realm is HDCP. A decade ago one could have just run S/PDIF connects to the speaker. But if you're designing for high-end, you're going to have to handle Blu-ray, which means HDMI, and copy prohibition.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#272652 - 09/17/09 04:37 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: ClubNeon]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7123
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
But if you're designing for high-end, you're going to have to handle Blu-ray, which means HDMI, and copy prohibition.

That line is sig-worthey

Hey Adrian. If you build them, can I come listen?

I wish I had my own space so I could break out the tools and make some dust. ::looks lovingly at 10" table saw sitting in corner of bedroom::
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#272656 - 09/17/09 04:53 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Michael_d,

You are correct in being prudent about allowing speakers to reach room temperature before applying power. One thing Ian Colquhoun discovered in doing our temperature testing of the Algonquin outdoor speakers (M3s in a different enclosure) is that in very cold temperatures, the high frequency response totally disappears, because the ferrofluid in the magnetic gap becomes thick in cold temperatures and its viscosity changes dramatically, damping the voice-coil movement and thus ruining the high-frequency response.

The reason I state with some confidence that mechanical break-in does not occur is that if it did, the frequency response of the speaker would change with "break-in". But over several decades of blind listening tests at Canada's National Research Council, we kept a number of speakers, good and bad, as sonic "anchors" which would be rotated in listening tests with other speakers. Those were measured anechoically when new, and also years later, and the frequency responses never changed, nor did the numerical ratings assigned in blind listening tests. In other words, they measured and sounded just the same as when new.

If "break-in" actually took place, then the frequency response of a new speaker would change over time as the elasticity of the surround materials "broke in", and they would sound different. But that did not occur, even after years of use.

Regards,
Alan
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#272657 - 09/17/09 04:55 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
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Registered: 12/27/08
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Loc: It's all about the location.
Consider yourself invited Fr(e)d! \:D
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#272658 - 09/17/09 05:13 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
That line is sig-worthey

I try to make all of my lines sig-worthy. \:\)

It isn't "copy protection" and "digital rights management", those phrases have already been spun by publicists. When you see them always think, "copy prohibition", and "digital restrictions management."
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#272660 - 09/17/09 06:33 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: ClubNeon]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
I'm such a jerk I didn't think of such an application for the environment chamber. Yeah I can see it now, guy orders a set of M80se for xmas and they sit in a Puro truck over the weekend at -30. Dude is anxious to fire them up and they seem warm, MDP warms much faster than the metal parts, and the drivers could be affected. Interesting the affects on ferrofluid Ian documented. Perfect for outdoor speaker testing also... duh I never thought of such use. It's also one really neat thing to have in a lab!

Solid-State

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#272696 - 09/18/09 02:23 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
It’s no different that a bicycle tire. You need to inflate the tube and give it a pretty good stretch, and then deflate it before installing it in the tire or you will have a premature failure.
And yet another myth comes out.
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#272715 - 09/18/09 08:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: jakewash]
michael_d Offline
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Registered: 07/23/04
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....followed by another prick.
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#272718 - 09/18/09 09:32 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
Your analogy is in error.

A bicycle tube is inflated partially, then inserted in the tire. Then, with the valve stem pushed through the hole in the rim, the tire is mounted to the rim, and inflated the rest of the way......the initial, partial inflation is done to avoid the tube being "pinched" between the rim, and tire. It has nothing to do with "stretching".
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#272723 - 09/18/09 11:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
Sounds like someone needs to take a chill pill. LT, your correct in your description.
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#272727 - 09/19/09 12:33 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Don't worry, just a few weeks ago I solved the age old mystery of gravity all by myself.... bicycle tire tubes are nothing!


But anyway, I live in a relatively small and humble town (45,000 or so working class people), but like all towns, there is an upper class here with money. Just this summer one of our towns more wealthy inhabitants went and spent a whopping $500,000 dollars putting in a dedicated Home Theater in his digs. $350,000 of that was spent just on the audio portion of the project. I am not ashamed to say that it is absolutely killing me to know what kind of audio gear you can aquire with $350,000 dollars at your disposal. Even more, I would pay an ungodly amount of money just to be able to experience one movie in this man's personal theater room to see what $350,000 dollars can do with 'Iron Man', 'Dark Knight', 'Pearl Harbor', any of the 'Lord of the Rings' and, well, anything with a decent sound track for that matter.

I would go in with my expectations so high it would be next to impossible to actually meet them, let alone exceed them... but who knows, maybe $350,000 dollars really can purchase a little piece of heaven here on earth. Personally, I think it's disgusting having that much money to throw into a room just to watch movies in, but hey, I guess if you have it to throw around...

Lets put it this way, I'm soooo impressed with the way my $10,000 dollar HT sound/feels, it's just hard to believe that you could build something 35 times better that what I have. Sure I realize I haven't achieved the absolute pinnacle of Home Theater, but can there be something 35 times better than this? I find it hard to believe.

I suppose $10,000 dollar power cords can add up quickly!
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#272733 - 09/19/09 01:00 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Micah]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Just remember the rule of thumb for subwoofers was $1 per cubic foot a few years ago and I can't believe the price has come down. Some of those HTs are *big*.

EDIT - hold on, I'm off by a factor of 10. I don't know how to spend $350K on the audio either, although I could sure make a good dent in $35K ;\)


Edited by bridgman (09/19/09 01:16 AM)

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#272744 - 09/19/09 07:49 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Micah]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
You know what they say, "a fool and his money are soon parted".

I wonder if he could part some of that coin over here?
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#272748 - 09/19/09 10:02 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
You know what they say, "a fool and his money are soon parted".





I know that saying well... however, I don't know very many fools with $500,000 bucks to build a personal Home Theater with? \:\)
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#272749 - 09/19/09 10:15 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: LT61]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: LT61
Your analogy is in error.

A bicycle tube is inflated partially, then inserted in the tire. Then, with the valve stem pushed through the hole in the rim, the tire is mounted to the rim, and inflated the rest of the way......the initial, partial inflation is done to avoid the tube being "pinched" between the rim, and tire. It has nothing to do with "stretching".


No, it is not. That’s why I made it. The elastic properties of the rubber are reduced if you just pull it out of the box and install it without expanding it first. It’s also just common sense to do this to remove the wrinkles. I’ve been lazy and failed to expand the tube first on my kid’s BMX before installing it, to only replace that one again a couple hours later. For those that still want to debate this, go to a carnival or fair. Go to the area where they have all the rigged games like throwing a ring over a bottle or knocking over a weighted jar with a baseball. Go to the one where you use a water pistol to hit the target in the clown’s mouth which inflates a balloon. The first person to pop the balloon wins the prize. Every time, the balloon that gets popped is the last “new” balloon (provided the person using the pistol can aim worth a dam). – I don’t think I can make this analogy simpler than that, and it most certainly isn’t a “myth”. It’s basic physics and good maintenance practices. It’s also what you are required to do to accumulator bladders on hydraulic skids when replacing them.

Randy – you are the very last person on this board to EVER recommend that anyone take a chill pill.
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#272752 - 09/19/09 11:06 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
Spoiler Offline
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Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 680
Loc: South Florida

A round of Xanax for everyone! \:D
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#272756 - 09/19/09 11:20 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Spoiler]
SirQuack Offline
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I have never brought myself down to a level of calling someone else a prick, especially someone that has contibuted as much as Jakewash.
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#272769 - 09/19/09 12:07 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Spoiler]
fredk Offline
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Registered: 12/06/07
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Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: Spoiler

A round of Xanax for everyone! \:D

Can I take mine with coffee? I need to wake up before I chill.
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#272784 - 09/19/09 01:49 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Just don't drink an expresso as a chaser.
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#272785 - 09/19/09 02:08 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7123
Loc: Canada
My first and last experience with espreso was in Italy when I was offered a 'coffee' during a business meeting. That stuff is dangerous...
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#272806 - 09/19/09 07:58 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
A shot of espresso has about as much caffeine in it as a mug of strong brewed coffee. Not so dangerous if you keep it to one or two. ;\)
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#272807 - 09/19/09 08:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 836
Loc: Illinois.
 Quote:
The elastic properties of the rubber are reduced if you just pull it out of the box and install it without expanding it first. It’s also just common sense to do this to remove the wrinkles.


No, you're still wrong. The "wrinkles" are what get "pinched" between the rim and tire, when someone does not first, partially inflate the tube before insertion in the tire.
One should also make sure the rubber strip on the rim is good, and covers the spoke ends, or that can also cause a premature failure, as well.
Many times, I have seen where someone has gone to air up a bicycle tire at a gas station, etc. and because a compressor puts the air in so fast (unlike a car tire) they have a very loud premature failure.
I have never seen a failure, due to improper tube stretching.

I owned a bicycle shop for many years, and built many BMX bikes, from the frame up....back in the day. I know how this works, and don't need a lecture......from someone who does not.
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#272813 - 09/19/09 09:28 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: LT61]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
\:\)
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#272818 - 09/19/09 10:17 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: LT61]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: LT61


I owned a bicycle shop for many years, and built many BMX bikes, from the frame up....back in the day. I know how this works, and don't need a lecture......from someone who does not.


Try to remove yourself from the overly complex mechanics of bicycle tube repair and think of the properties of anything that “stretches” how it is stored and the end application of that devise. I used a simple analogy to explain a more complex subject. There was no lecturing from me; you are the one who felt the need to correct me. I have plenty of other things to do a bit more pressing than debating bicycle tire maintenance practices. But if you wish, I'll carry on and take another approach and counter what you say, then you can do the same, and on......

While I will admit that I’ve never owned a bicycle shop, and don’t consider myself a bicycle repair man, I do have a pretty good grasp on mechanics, physics and maintenance philosophy. They taught me that shit is nuke school learning how to operate, maintain and repair nuclear reactors and their auxiliary equipment. I apply that knowledge for my current employer. That was a pretty good jab you threw at me though, well done.

My dear old friend Randal....
When someone acts like a prick, and bates me, I’ll call him a prick, regardless of that person’s overwhelming post count. Including you Randy. And you’ve said many things, to many people, much worse that wasn’t even warranted. It’s become common behavior from you. Why don’t you do us both a favor and just click the ignore button? I'll do the same. What do you say??
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#272820 - 09/19/09 10:41 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
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Geez, how did this all go south?

Michael, as always, my question for those who perceive break in as a real property is this: why does it stop when it's perfect? Why doesn't it keep breaking in at the same rate past that point? It makes sense for car engines--bits of metal heating up, grinding off, whatever, but not really for something as simple as a speaker.
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#272821 - 09/19/09 10:44 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Ken.C]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7412
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I'm going back to being a pirate. Yarrrr!!!

Yo ho, yo ho, yo ho. . .
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#272822 - 09/19/09 10:46 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
I heard Iran was looking for a few good men. With those credentials you should polish up your resume. Typical Project Manger BS, no time for them...off to drink some wine.
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#272824 - 09/19/09 10:48 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
For all those that I've called worse than a "Prick" I apologize, Michael seems to have a better memory than I, he is a very smart individual.
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#272831 - 09/19/09 11:03 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
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Registered: 07/20/06
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Iran and Wine?

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#272834 - 09/19/09 11:08 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: CV]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
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I prefer to walk and drink.
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#272851 - 09/20/09 09:39 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: St_PatGuy]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
I think those must have been bogus Xanies, they didn't do squat for anyone on this board!

If you're going to pass out drugs, make sure they are the real deal. I don't wanna see anyone here shipped off to Iran! \:\(


Edited by Micah (09/20/09 09:41 AM)
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#272852 - 09/20/09 09:47 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Micah]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
....on the other hand, when else has anyone here ever been witness to a drag-out, hair-pulling, bar-brawl over the proper way to inflate bicycle tire tubes using everything from simple honest to goodness experience in the field to quantum physics as ammo???

That's why I've always said the Axiom Forum puts on the best internet fights EVER!!!


Edited by Micah (09/20/09 09:49 AM)
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#272861 - 09/20/09 12:08 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: michael_d


No, it is not. That’s why I made it. The elastic properties of the rubber are reduced if you just pull it out of the box and install it without expanding it first. It’s also just common sense to do this to remove the wrinkles. I’ve been lazy and failed to expand the tube first on my kid’s BMX before installing it, to only replace that one again a couple hours later.
That was more my point, improper installation causing popped tubes, you don't have to stretch it, but you do at least need to slightly inflate it before putting it in the tire, this helps keep it aligned and eliminate pinching. I have heard many people exclaim you have to stretch the tube but it doesn't stop pinching if the tube has been improperly installed.

So far as the name calling...very childish Mike. I expected better from you.
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#272862 - 09/20/09 12:11 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7123
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
While I will admit that I’ve never owned a bicycle shop, and don’t consider myself a bicycle repair man


Hmm. Did someone call for ... Bicycle Repair Man
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#272867 - 09/20/09 01:17 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Could we get a mod to move this thread to the AVS forum?

BTW if you just stick to running then there’s no point in arguing about tire inflation. Running shoes maybe…
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#272871 - 09/20/09 06:31 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
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Whats the breakin on those?
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#272874 - 09/20/09 07:11 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
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Well thank you for asking Fred.

Modern synthetic running shoes don’t “break in” like leather shoes/boots, instead from the first time you wear them running shoes break down. People mistake break in for their foot adapting to the shoe.
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#272909 - 09/21/09 06:53 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: grunt]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6860
Loc: PEI, Canada
Speaker "Break In", OfficiallyDefined.

Speaker break in is the serious and detrimental act of breaking opening your speaker case up to peer inside, fiddle with or otherwise mangle perfectly good speaker components.

This type of intrusion is often the result of just a whimsical curiosity but is sometimes the result of a pre-meditated crime, often by ninjas, who seek to replace heavily researched crossover with those of an molecularity superior but acoustically random design.

You can help prevent speaker break in by equipping your speakers with the latest in electronic intruder alarm systems. If you can not afford an automated system, more economical measures can be taken such as wrapping your speaker in bicycle tire tubes to slow down the intrusion process in the hopes you catch them in the act. Remember to pre-stretch the bicycle tube or it will not have the muscle memory required to maintain it's shape around the speaker and may be subject to shrinkage during intense LFE moments.

Of course, as an educated reader of our forum, we don't have to tell you that tube shrinkage during intense moments is the number one cause of divorce in the country. Don't let speaker break in ruin your marriage. Use rubber tube protection TODAY!
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#272912 - 09/21/09 11:14 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Murph]
CV Online   confused
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\:D

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#272928 - 09/21/09 01:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: jakewash]
michael_d Offline
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Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: jakewash

So far as the name calling...very childish Mike. I expected better from you.

And I expected better from you. You quoted and baited me, and you know you did. Stop pretending to be the innocent victim. If you honestly did not intend to do so, I will be more than willing to offer you a sincere apology and buy you a beer.
But if my initial take on your words was accurate, you were being a prick. If you were, it’s not a big deal to me. I have my moments just like anyone else and expect to be called out when I do.
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
That was more my point, improper installation causing popped tubes, you don't have to stretch it, but you do at least need to slightly inflate it before putting it in the tire, this helps keep it aligned and eliminate pinching. I have heard many people exclaim you have to stretch the tube but it doesn't stop pinching if the tube has been improperly installed.



I’ll make one last attempt to explain this in a manner that should be understandable to anyone who would like to understand and learn and discuss, and not just argue or disagree, just for the sake of being disagreeable. It should also shed some light on why I choose the analogy I did I which has become the target of ridicule – a tire tube, for my thoughts regarding driver break in possibilities.

Drivers use some form of elastic material as part of their physical make up. I do not know the exact molecular composition (don't really care either), however, whatever it is; it is a polymer based product. (I’m talking specifically to the part of driver that surrounds the cone) Casual observance leads me to believe they are an elastomer (rubber) of sorts, probably with a proprietary blend of sulfur. (Sulfur is added to rubber to increase hardness IE: Vucanization). Inner tubes are also made from rubber, again, why I used the tire tube analogy.

The molecular structure of polymers, in general, and if observed through a microscope, resembles cooked spaghetti; the molecules rap around each other, coil and intertwine in a haphazard sort of way. The molecules are attracted to each other through Van der Waals forces (non-typical, molecular week bonds of attraction), which holds them together. This is what gives polymers elastic properties - their molecular composition. As they are stretched, the molecules straighten out and align in the direction they are stretched while Van der Waals forces keep them from sliding apart and becoming unattractive to one another and moving away from each other. When tension is removed, the molecules attempt to resume their original shape and orientation - provided that other factors like heat, absence of heat, rubbing, cracking, over stressing, etc does not occur. If excessive stress is applied, the Van der Waals forces that hold the molecules together give out and the (straightened) molecules slide by one another and cracks form, which allows the polymer (rubber) to fail (rupture, break, etc). Google “fracture mechanics” if interested in this…..

Now, regarding driver break in and my initial thoughts regarding drivers which should tie this to my analogy of a rubber inner tube….

Polymers, specifically rubber, have viscoelastic properties (time dependent strain). This, in a nutshell, means that if stress is applied (stretch) over a given period of time, the molecular structure is changed from a pile of sticky intertwined spaghetti, to non sticky rows of straightened spaghetti, making the rubber stronger and more resistant to failure from cracking after the stress is relieved, because the molecules reorientate to their original state with more rigor and defined structure. There are two different approaches to strengthening rubber through its inherent viscoelastic properties: 1) creep, 2) stress relaxation. Both have the same desired affect, which is reorienting the rubber’s molecular structure to make it stronger and more resistant to cracking (failure). Creep is when a constant tension is applied to the rubber and stress relaxation is when constant stress is applied to the rubber, but the rubber is held in constant position and not allowed to continue stretching. If you were to take the inner tube and pull it from end to end two inches, and hold that position over time; that would be stress relaxation. If you were to pull on the inner tube with a steady, constant pressure, you would continue to stretch it, elongating it, further and further. That would be creep. For both techniques, after stressing the inner tube for a given period of time, you then remove the stress that was applied and allow it to return to its original size / shape. The molecules are now reoriented. You do this same thing by inflating the inner tube, allowing time for the viscoelastic properties to take effect, and then deflate it.

The same principles could be related to a speaker driver, although more loosely. If one were to “flex” the rubber component over a particular amount of time by some form of mild use (low wattage break in perhaps), the likelihood of rubber cracking would be reduced, reducing the chance of failure. This is somewhat of a stretch (no pun intended), but possible, I believe.

Vulcanizing is another factor to consider that affects rubber, which in short, is when “spot welding” of the molecular polymer chains occurs by cross linking the sulfur atoms that were added to the original compound during the manufacturing process. Unwanted or uncontrolled "spot" vulcanizing limits elastic properties and creates failure points. Mild spot vulcanizing occurs when rubber is tightly folded upon itself (inner tube wrinkles caused by packaging) or if excessive heat is applied, or if left in sunlight or in an overly dry or humid environment. Some of the affects of vulcanizing can be reversed by reorienting the molecular structure through stress relaxing or creep. (inflating the inner tube and then deflating it)

In the industrial world, it is common practice to stress polymer based components before installing them or putting them in service (Example: diaphragms for control valves and actuators, accumulator bladders). It is a proven, and well known practice.

Am I overworking this when relating it to speakers?? More than likely. I was curious, always have been.


Edited by michael_d (09/21/09 02:06 PM)
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#272930 - 09/21/09 02:16 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I heard Iran was looking for a few good men. With those credentials you should polish up your resume. Typical Project Manger BS, no time for them...off to drink some wine.


Can’t you come up with something better than that? I take it you didn’t like my suggestion to ignore me and my typical PM BS?

 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Michael seems to have a better memory than I, he is a very smart individual.


I’ve never claimed to be smart or better than anyone else. I’ve more than on one occasion made self declarations of idiocy. There are things that I am quite good at though, as is everyone.

Is there anything else you’d like to say to me before I use the ignore function?
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#272931 - 09/21/09 02:18 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6860
Loc: PEI, Canada
Please note Mike that my post was humor intended at poking fun of this entire thread, and a few others.

My serious question as I too always thrive to understand things:
By your details above, you have rationalized a theory on the possibility of real speaker break in and it's pretty well explained.

To return to your analogy regarding the tire tube. If we can assume that it takes only one single stretch (or at least one single stretching session) to acclimatize the tube into a state less likely to fail when inflated within the tire and driven upon, is it not reasonable to assume that the polymers in the speaker driver also take very little time to stretch and become acclimatized to prepare it for it's lifetime of vibes. Thus your theory melds nicely with the opinions given by Axiom and several posters that the "breaking in" of speakers occurs during a brief moment during the initial testing of the speakers at the factory and thus the end user does not have to concern themselves with speaker break in.

That is an unscientific hypothesis that makes some sense to me as a possibility from both arguments that have been explained here.

Also:
I do my best to refrain from 'strong adult' language on technical web boards as we have no idea what age is viewing the threads and what their sensitivity levels might be. I'm often the first to make jokes around here and we all get caught on the risque side now and then but this will be my last entry to attempt to discuss this with you seriously if you can't keep it a bit more professional.


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#272936 - 09/21/09 03:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13340
Loc: Iowa
First of all, prior to last night I had no idea who you were, which confused me by your little "my old friend" comment and mis-spelling of my name. I'm thinking, I have no memory of "michael_d", considering your registration date and post count, and any interaction with this person, who obviously has past issues with me.

It was not until I read a post from JohnK, that I realized for whatever reason you changed your screen name from Mdrew, for which I was familiar.

Now that your alias is uncovered to me, and your not some troll stirring up problems with Jason and others, I'm a little confused by some of your comments on how I've treated others, and supposably you in the past.

I've always talked highly of you on this board, shared positive feedback to your questions the best I could, and have spoke highly of you during my phone conversations with Rick and others.

Sorry if you have some bad taste in your mouth about me and it has been bottled up inside you all these years. It is obvious you don't know me.

Jason, I'm sorry I backed you up, you have been very helpful to others on this board on various topics, so I was a bit suprised by the feedback you received. I didn't see anything you did/said wrong to be called a "prick", and had I realized it was mdrew calling you that, I think I would have had a loss for words.

Anyway, it is all good, off to drink some brews before the Springsteen concert tonight. If I lose one friend on the board, I'll pick up 5 more tonight.

God Bless y'all eh
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#272939 - 09/21/09 04:38 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
Polymers, specifically rubber, have viscoelastic properties (time dependent strain). This, in a nutshell, means that if stress is applied (stretch) over a given period of time, the molecular structure is changed from a pile of sticky intertwined spaghetti, to non sticky rows of straightened spaghetti, making the rubber stronger and more resistant to failure from cracking after the stress is relieved, because the molecules reorientate to their original state with more rigor and defined structure. There are two different approaches to strengthening rubber through its inherent viscoelastic properties: 1) creep, 2) stress relaxation. Both have the same desired affect, which is reorienting the rubber’s molecular structure to make it stronger and more resistant to cracking (failure). Creep is when a constant tension is applied to the rubber and stress relaxation is when constant stress is applied to the rubber, but the rubber is held in constant position and not allowed to continue stretching

Mike,

This is good information, but I don't think it really applies to speaker surround materials. When I read it, I was picturing silly putty. You know the trick that if you pull slowly on a wad of silly putty it will stretch, but if you yank quickly it will snap? That's what you're talking about here, material that is designed to stretch statistically significantly during normal operation.

Speaker surrounds are flexible, yes, but you'll note the that there's enough extra material there -- the bump all the way around -- that allows the cone to travel up and down without pulling the surround material taut, at least if you're operating within the design limits.
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#272940 - 09/21/09 04:41 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
I don't really know why this thread went south, winter is still about 3 months away.
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#272942 - 09/21/09 04:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Nobody said anything bad about me. What's the problem? \:\)
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#272943 - 09/21/09 05:00 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: pmbuko]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
Oh, you're still a problem.
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#272944 - 09/21/09 05:23 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
I don't really know why this thread went south, winter is still about 3 months away.


Yep, y'all dont want to be here just yet...

88/74 and humid.

I'd give it another couple of months.

;\)
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Our Room

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#272946 - 09/21/09 05:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SirQuack]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
Murph,

Thanks for that point of view and analysis. Those are my opposing view points as well, which is why I posed the question and theoretical quandary. I do not know the answer and only have questions which are spawned from trying to better understand the mechanics. I have found that troubleshooting and finding the route cause of any situation requires a firm grasp of the theory of why things do what they do and how they do it.

Regarding my “strong adult language”. You must be joking, seriously. This forum is hardly a G rated Disney film. I think you are blowing my horrific behavior out of proportion and your parental tone is hardly justified. It’s not as if I went off on some sort of tirade slewing all sorts of names at anyone and started swearing like a logger. In fact, “prick” is pretty tame by anyone’s standards. I can rattle off many “descriptive” names, verbs, adverbs and adjectives much worse that you hear on prime time TV. But if that is how you view me, and do not wish to converse with me because of that view, then that is your prerogative. I’ve always thought you were pretty cool, but so be it if that is how you feel.

Randy –

I changed my user name for reasons of needing to maintain anonymity. Over the years I have made it a point to not discuss what I do, or who I work for on this board or any other place on the internet, with the exception of professional discussion groups. This is for security reasons. I needed to change it to remove my last name from the public domain. I really shouldn’t be communicating in public at any level, but this is a hobby of mine, and I like the distraction of forums from time to time.

Regardless of who I am, your behavior to me in this thread is A-typical of you. You immediately jump to the conclusion that someone is a troll or up to no good if they are new. Instead of trying to look at the situation from that person’s point of view and understand where they are coming from, you assume the worse and attack. I just haven’t said anything or called you on it for these past years because things generally play out on their own. I am also not a forum etiquette enforcer – I do my best to avoid the drama and only intervene when someone says something really out of line. There have not been many times when I did say something. Now that you’ve done to me, what I’ve witnessed you do to many others over the years, I responded with a defensive posture. But you are correct; I do not know you and I should have tried harder to get to know you. I think you probably have a good heart, and that is a trait that is very important to me. I will try to do so in the future. I would offer a suggestion to you though, try to assume positive intent.

As to my “questionable behavior”, I find my need to have to explain it somewhat absurd. My reaction was nothing more than a response to what I felt was an unsolicited and undeserving response to something I wrote. What was said to me could have easily been phrased at least a dozen different ways that would not have been offensive, if the intent was to discus the point; but he chose to phrase it in a way that was very clearly, to me, intended to be confrontational. In other words, it pissed me off. Then LT decided to join in. In both cases, neither person took the time to read what I wrote, analyze it and attempt to understand my point, or the rationale behind the analogy. No one did from what I can tell. But many did take my comments and make a joke out of them. Not just in this thread either but I notice that I'm being joked at in other threads today as well.

This has been very eye opening to me. After being treated as if I was some kind of “troll”, because you and others (I assume others) didn’t know who I am, I can now fully appreciate how new forum members feel when they get trashed by “the mob” when they do not agree with what is said. Nothing has changed over the years; just the person’s who belong to the mob.

I think I need to take a hiatus from this place for a while.
_________________________


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#272947 - 09/21/09 05:31 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: pmbuko]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3914
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
Polymers, specifically rubber, have viscoelastic properties (time dependent strain). This, in a nutshell, means that if stress is applied (stretch) over a given period of time, the molecular structure is changed from a pile of sticky intertwined spaghetti, to non sticky rows of straightened spaghetti, making the rubber stronger and more resistant to failure from cracking after the stress is relieved, because the molecules reorientate to their original state with more rigor and defined structure. There are two different approaches to strengthening rubber through its inherent viscoelastic properties: 1) creep, 2) stress relaxation. Both have the same desired affect, which is reorienting the rubber’s molecular structure to make it stronger and more resistant to cracking (failure). Creep is when a constant tension is applied to the rubber and stress relaxation is when constant stress is applied to the rubber, but the rubber is held in constant position and not allowed to continue stretching

Mike,

This is good information, but I don't think it really applies to speaker surround materials. When I read it, I was picturing silly putty. You know the trick that if you pull slowly on a wad of silly putty it will stretch, but if you yank quickly it will snap? That's what you're talking about here, material that is designed to stretch statistically significantly during normal operation.

Speaker surrounds are flexible, yes, but you'll note the that there's enough extra material there -- the bump all the way around -- that allows the cone to travel up and down without pulling the surround material taut, at least if you're operating within the design limits.


Good points. Thanks Peter.
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#272949 - 09/21/09 06:43 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6721
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Hi Mikey.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#272966 - 09/22/09 12:18 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11236
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
I think I need to take a hiatus from this place for a while.


I, for one, hope you don't stay away too long. I always enjoy your contributions. I didn't have a response of my own to this discussion, but I can say that nothing you've said has made me want to make jokes about you. You've presented your perspective very well.

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#272969 - 09/22/09 12:38 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Wid]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Mdrew, or Michael_D as it is.... I don't think I'm alone in that I've always respected your opinions and appreciated your participation in past discussions, and look forward to them in the future as well. If the jokes in other threads you referred to were any of the comments I made (and if you didn't see them, yes I did poke fun at the whole 'tire tube' argument as a whole, not just your view point), then I extend to you my appologies as I truely wasn't making fun of anyone in particular, just trying to ease the tension as it were.

I find it helpful to lighten the mood when things get heavy in this and other forums that I frequent. Internet arguments are nothing new, but hey we're all just here for entertainment after all. If we can't have fun when we come here, then more than likely, we won't come here any more. And I've seen that happen before on a very popular forum that I used to love to frequent.
The members started fighting about this, that and everything else inbetween until they all pretty much hated eachother and just stopped posting altogether. It was a shame because it was a truely interesting forum to visit before all that went down. So whenever I see something like that start to brew I for one try to intervien with lighthearted humor to steer away from all the chaos that it can cause. But if you thought I was in anyway dismissing you or your views that wasn't the case at all. That was just me throwing a friendly jab.

I wouldn't have the clout to dismiss you anyway, the things you're speaking of are way over my head... I wouldn't know which part of your discussion to call bullshit even if I wanted to try to take a swing at you! But anyway, all's I'm saying is, hope you didn't take offense to anything I said. Because it was all in jest, nothing personal towards you friend.


Edited by Micah (09/22/09 12:41 AM)
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M80's
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#272981 - 09/22/09 07:45 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6860
Loc: PEI, Canada
 Originally Posted By: michael_d

Regarding my “strong adult language”. You must be joking, seriously. This forum is hardly a G rated Disney film. I think you are blowing my horrific behavior out of proportion and your parental tone is hardly justified. It’s not as if I went off on some sort of tirade slewing all sorts of names at anyone and started swearing like a logger. In fact, “prick” is pretty tame by anyone’s standards. I can rattle off many “descriptive” names, verbs, adverbs and adjectives much worse that you hear on prime time TV. But if that is how you view me, and do not wish to converse with me because of that view, then that is your prerogative. I’ve always thought you were pretty cool, but so be it if that is how you feel.


OK I tried the diplomatic approach and it failed.

You are correct, the language on this board does dip into the gutter fairly often here but 'normally', the difference here is that it's normally with the intent of humor. Yours was more of a direct attack. Of course you can argue that you were simply defending an attack on your theories, which normally I would have been curious to explore more.

Sorry I came across as parental. I hate that myself. However, my intent was to reduce the gutter dragging on an otherwise good theoretical discussion on opposing theories.

I for one will be happy to have further conversations with the old MDrew of old whom I also respected for his helpful input and conversation but your new alias seems to be a new person all together. I'll probably be misinterpreted for this too but I honestly and truly hope that life hasn't flung you around a nasty turn and I wish you all the best but perhaps this thread is best left discontinued and we start fresh on another topic.

meanwhile, I'll go back to my previous rule of staying out of flaming topics, even when I want to understand one side or the other better. It's almost never worth it.
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#272985 - 09/22/09 10:33 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: RickF]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
 Originally Posted By: RickF

Yep, y'all dont want to be here just yet...

88/74 and humid.

I'd give it another couple of months.

;\)

Sorry to hear your weather is so bad Rick ;\)
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#272993 - 09/22/09 01:58 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Adrian]
Spoiler Offline
aficionado

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 680
Loc: South Florida

Hey Adrian, I know exactly what Rick means. We're both looking forward to around the end of October when the weather is cooler and drier for about 6 months. 88/74 wouldn't be so bad but for the dam humidity!
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Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
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#272995 - 09/22/09 02:08 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: michael_d]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
And I expected better from you. You quoted and baited me, and you know you did. Stop pretending to be the innocent victim. If you honestly did not intend to do so, I will be more than willing to offer you a sincere apology and buy you a beer.
I honestly did not try to bait you, my apologies to you as you certainly took it that way.

I was merely trying to bring to light your analogy with a tire tube was a myth that I have heard many times.

As you have pointed out, in industry it might be common practice to stretch the polymer to a more relaxed state but for the simplicity of installing a tire tube, stretching it is not necessary. I have installed more tire tubes in so many different wheels than I care to remember and I have never had one fail due to lack of stretching before installation as I have never stretched a tube.

Back to the topic of 'speaker break in' GR Research has a web page that demonstrates a measured amount of responsive break in on speakers, however they also state

"This objective data showing changes in the T/S parameters as the suspension loosens up does not prove noted subjective differences in the perceived output, or how a speaker sounds, but does prove that there is something more taking place than getting used to the sound."

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm
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-----------------
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#272999 - 09/22/09 03:19 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: jakewash]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
So, to recap, we STILL can't measure what happens inside people's brains?!?!

Science is a fad.


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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#273001 - 09/22/09 03:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: tomtuttle]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
So, to recap, we STILL can't measure what happens inside people's brains?!?!



What! You mean the guy that always came in the embassy in Wellington with drawings of how the CIA was wiretapping his brain was fibbing? \:o

Man…I’m running out of conspiracy theories to believe in. \:\(
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#273059 - 09/23/09 12:16 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: jakewash]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
 Originally Posted By: michael_d
And I expected better from you. You quoted and baited me, and you know you did. Stop pretending to be the innocent victim. If you honestly did not intend to do so, I will be more than willing to offer you a sincere apology and buy you a beer.
I honestly did not try to bait you, my apologies to you as you certainly took it that way.

I was merely trying to bring to light your analogy with a tire tube was a myth that I have heard many times.

As you have pointed out, in industry it might be common practice to stretch the polymer to a more relaxed state but for the simplicity of installing a tire tube, stretching it is not necessary. I have installed more tire tubes in so many different wheels than I care to remember and I have never had one fail due to lack of stretching before installation as I have never stretched a tube.

Back to the topic of 'speaker break in' GR Research has a web page that demonstrates a measured amount of responsive break in on speakers, however they also state

"This objective data showing changes in the T/S parameters as the suspension loosens up does not prove noted subjective differences in the perceived output, or how a speaker sounds, but does prove that there is something more taking place than getting used to the sound."

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm


You guys are outrageous. Bunch of Cliff Clavins IMHO. To site GR Research when he's directly connected to Skiing Ninja and you guys attacked and insulted them both here, is so hypocritical. Did any of you consider my earlier post regarding xover component "break-in"?

Solid-State

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#273064 - 09/23/09 01:22 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
Spoiler Offline
aficionado

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 680
Loc: South Florida

I'm gettin out the rest of the popcorn! \:D
_________________________
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Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
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#273066 - 09/23/09 01:29 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Spoiler]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6860
Loc: PEI, Canada
I'm withdrawing so it's time for my favorite, Jalapeno flavored popcorn. Also most suitable.
_________________________
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#273070 - 09/23/09 01:37 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Murph]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10939
Loc: Central NH
Jalapeno flavored popcorn? Dude, that sounds awesome!
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#273075 - 09/23/09 02:24 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
I think it forgot to take it’s meds again…but the Jalapeno popcorn does sound good.
_________________________
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#273078 - 09/23/09 02:36 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: grunt]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17789
Loc: NoVA
I'll take the caramel corn. But I'm not reading any more of Mr. Multiple Personality Disorder's posts.
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#273080 - 09/23/09 03:02 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Ken.C]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Why did Cracker Jacks swap out the molasses for caramel? I really preferred the molasses flavor; caramel is just so ordinary.
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#273081 - 09/23/09 03:18 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: ClubNeon]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Hey guys, just dropping by, what did I miss?
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#273086 - 09/23/09 03:54 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Zimm]
Ascension Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 128
Loc: Hutchinson, KS.
POPCORN!!
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2 = M60,4 = QS8's,1 = VP150,1 = EP350,1 = EP500
HK247
Optoma HD70,110" DIY screen
Xbox360 & PS3

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#273088 - 09/23/09 04:36 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Ascension]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8293
Loc: Tacoma
Epic Popcorn

Was the best I could do at the moment.
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#273090 - 09/23/09 04:52 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: tomtuttle]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Solid State you've been called a lot of things around here and other places as well I would assume... but nobody can call you a quiter, that's forsure.
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My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#273092 - 09/23/09 05:10 PM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: Micah]
rvrrat Offline
buff

Registered: 08/22/09
Posts: 57
Loc: Iowa, USA
Well in two more months my annual gift from the popcorn factory should be at my doorstep. It always has jalapeno flavored along with cinnamom, carmel and cheese flavored! Could you guys hang on that long for me? Right now the only thing I have is pink lemonaid and cranberry vodka. Just have to make do I guess.

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#273132 - 09/24/09 10:18 AM Re: New M22 speakers.... break-in required? [Re: SolidState]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: SolidState

You guys are outrageous. Bunch of Cliff Clavins IMHO. To site GR Research when he's directly connected to Skiing Ninja and you guys attacked and insulted them both here, is so hypocritical. Did any of you consider my earlier post regarding xover component "break-in"?

Solid-State


2 different matters, GR Research at least did some testing with actual measured changes and still stated what they did about Break in, they didn't make any false/outlandish claims, just the facts as they found them.

I know Skiing Ninja et al, posted tests of the Axioms but also claimed they sounded bad and they sound bad due to their findings, which is just personal opinion. If Axioms truly sounded as bad as some make them out to be, we wouldn`t be on this forum and Ian would be working somewhere else.
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Jason
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TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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