I'm still torn between the M80 and the M60. Would the M60 be better for movies in a 1200 cubic foot room that the M80? I've read that the M60 is better for movies and the M80 is better for music. If that is so, what I'm missing is WHY is the M60 better for movies?

I don't think that's the case at all. If you can get the M80s, do get the M80s.

If you play a lot of highly compressed MP3s or use a crappy sound source like an iPod then the M60s might be just a tiny bit more forgiving of compressed or poorly recorded music. Not a lot more forgiving though, the M60s are still extremely accurate and bring out the worst in the worst recorded music. More importantly though, they bring out the best in the nicely recorded music or movies.

However, for just about anything else, movies or music, M80s seem to have a slight edge. Of course that is what the M80 folk keep trying to convince us M60 owners anyways. <snicker>

Murph has it right, at least from my experiences with M80s/M60s. I found M60s to be a little more forgiving for poor recordings allowing me to listen to them longer and louder, while the M80s just sounded great with everything except poor recordings which forced me to stop listening to a few songs at louder levels as they sounded terrible.

1200 cubic feet?

Call me crazy, but unless you want to play at ridiculous (and I mean ridiculous) volume, M22 with a sub is all you need, especially if you are watching movies in there.

You're not crazy, that's mighty small room for the M80 imo.

That is a small room for a pair of 80s I would suspect *but* if you ever have plans or *think* you might be moving them to a larger location I'd probably go ahead and get the 80s.

You are not located in sunny south Florida by any chance are you?

I'm looking for quality sound, not volume. My understanding was the M80's would deliver the highest quality sound, even at low volume, but that the M60 required more volume to sound almost as good. The M22's are missing a midrange speaker and therefore someone said that it was also lower in midrange quality.

But, my car is giving me problems at the moment. Replaced battery. Now it sounds like it's probably the starter. Will have to spend some of my speaker money on it go get it fixed and postpone my M80 purchase at the moment. Grrr. Always something.

If you want great sound at low volume, the M80s are one of a kind. I don't know the M60s, but I also own the M22s and even if they are good at low volume, the M80s are a notch over.

I have the 60's - They are awesome - at any volume - distortion free and extremely accurate. I would go deaf long before the speakers maxxed out.

I won't quibble with happy M80 owners, even if they are overcompensating for something. I've heard the M80's; they are great. I have not lived with them, however.



I don't think either one of these things is true at all. I regularly listen to my M60's at sensible volumes and I think they sound great. M22's plus a good sub is a dynamite combination, especially in a relatively small room. There are MANY audiophiles that believe no floorstander can compare to a monitor style speaker for imaging.

Do not underestimate the sheer size of the M80's. They are very deep (unlike some of their owners). That alone could restrict your speaker placement options considerably, and how your room interacts with your speakers is really very important.

Regards,

Tom
M60 Posse Member

Wow, I'm not sure if you could squeeze more insults in there, Tom!

With a room that small, Tom has a point. However, the M60s are only 2 inches less deep than the M80s, so it's possible that the M22s+EP350 might be a better choice.

Not to mention that many 80 owners pass out due to the excellent sound - so their enjoyment is limited.

I've owned M60's for a few years, M80's currently, and M22's upstairs. I think they all sound great at any volumes.

CB, the M22s aren't "missing" anything in the mid-range. The M22s use the same two 5 1/4" drivers for the mid-range that the M80s do(the M60 uses one of them). Both measurements and listening confirm that the mid-range is superb.

Oops, my bad. I meant to say the M50 not the M22.

M60s may sound better for movies, but the M80 club has a way better secret hand shake and decoder ring.

All three sound very close. The M22 and sub sounds ideal for a room your size.

I felt that the M80s were a little nicer on the upper end: airy or transparent if you have to use audiophile descriptions. Alan Loft an a few others here feel that the M22 actually delivers more detail.

Alan is actually the one that talked me out of the M60's and into the M22's, in a room much larger than CatBrat's. I figured since the M60 is a three way, it must naturally sound better... Alan shot that down pretty fast. Brent at Axiom also explained to me on the phone, the whole reason the M22 was created was to create M60 sound in a smaller room, allowing the speaker to be driven slightly harder and allowing it to stretch its legs. It's like having a Ferrari and putting around town, versus having a Mercedes and leaning into it a bit to get the same result.

I will never disagree with purchasing the best product you can afford, as long as the diminishing returns don't get too high.

CatBrat what is the primary use(s) for this system. If HT is a large portion of it I hope you are planning to get a subwoofer. In that case my choice would be the M22s + sub since I consider the M22s the best sounding Axiom speaker for the money and paired with a sub will give you full range for any music or movies. If you don’t plan to get a sub then the M60s or M80s would be my choice.

Rick made a good point that if you ever plan to move these to a larger room you might also want to go with tower just to future-proof yourself. However, depending on what you plan to purchase right now the M22 mains could later become surround back, width, or height speakers and the mains replaced by towers in a larger more complete setup. Also even in a larger room don’t assume placing towers will be easy. Most people have to compromise tower speaker placement even in large rooms due to screen height. I spent quite a bit of extra time searching for a house that fit all my other criteria and also had high enough ceilings so I could fit my M80s under the screen.

I own both M80s and M22s and when both the M80s and M22s are crossed over at 80Hz to a subwoofer they sound almost identical to me. The M80s sound a little better in a large room but that’s all. Also bookshelf speakers and a sub can often be easier to place in a smaller room as you can place the bookshelves for best imaging and the subwoofer for best bass and have the best of both worlds something difficult to do with only towers.

Cheers,
Dean

Thanks, that helps a lot. I was just thinking about downgrading to the M60's, but now I need to consider the M22's on stands with a sub, I was going to eventually get a sub anyway, regardless of speaker setup, just not right away. The ability to not have to be particular about speaker placement is a huge plus. $666 (wooo) with M22 plus stands, then $758 for ep350 later. Until I get a new receiver, I'm just going to splice these speakers onto my Sony 100 wpc HT in a box for the left and right channels.

I like the larger center with the double tweeters for a more wide sound field effect, but would this be overkill with the M22?
Sorry about so many questions, but I think others could benefit from my quandary also.

In a room that small the VP100 is probably sufficient, it does fine if you're not more than about 12' from it. Of course if it is for movies only you may want to splurge on the 150 as so much of a movies content comes through the center. You can always try the 100 and trade it on a 150 within 30 days if you so decide. Even if you buy the 100 and move to a larger room later, Axioms trade-in program is very good, they usually give you top dollar for the old speaker(s).

Ok, I just ordered the M22s and stands to start my 30 day trial. I'll let you know what I think of them later. I just won't have a quality receiver to drive them for a few months, though.

Very cool

What finish are you going with?

Keep in mind if you don't currently have a sub you may find the bottom end slightly lacking, so perhaps throw that negative out the window for now.

I got the cherry by default because I didn't like the other 3, and I didn't want to pay the diff for the other finishes, especially when it comes to making all of the other speakers match.

I'm aware of the low end response. I printed out the 2 graphs of freq response of the M22 and the M60 and when you hold them up and overlay them, they are very close, except for the lower base region. My current system has a cheap subwoofer, so it will help some until I can get another one.

I'm not sure what will happen when I connect M22 to it, but I'm expecting it to work. I'm not going to turn the volume up a lot because I don't want to damage the speakers. It's about a 4 year old Sony home theater in a box that was rated at 100 watts per channel. I'm just going to cut the clips off the end of the speaker wires and wire directly to the M22. (Reversing polarity on sound checks).

Personally if you can get the M60s but can’t manage both the M22s and a good sub at the same time then my preference would be for a pair of M60s as they will do great for music and ok for movies w/o a sub. The M22s will IMO sound a little thin for both music and movies w/o a sub.

One way to save some money toward a subwoofer is to make or locally purchase your own stands.

Also if you can fit one, using an M22 as a center speaker will IMO sound better than either a VP150 or VP100 and costs less than either of them. If used with M22 mains this will also give you the ideal setup of 3 identical speakers across the front. This is important for sound quality for the same reason people always use identical L/R speakers for stereo. Just like in stereo where the front 2 speaker share a lot of what playing so to does the center speaker in a multi-channel setup. Having a disimilar center speaker is obviously not a deal breaker as that’s what most people happily use, however to some of us using the same or more similar center to the mains is a noticeable improvement in sound quality. BTW I put my money where my mouth is and bought a third M80 as a center speaker.

Opps should have kept reading didn’t see you already placed the order. Well what I said about matching your center to the mains still stands. Since you already have a sub your M22s will sound great.

Boston cherry is great, good friend of mine has that colour and the only reason I didn't get it was because he has it... lol

I hope they work out for you, let us know your thoughts when they arrive.

Not to sound all negative here, but Sony's actual receivers have a reputation of falling flat on their specs when all channels are driven...I wouldn't be surprised if a Sony HTB system is only putting out a decent 10wpc....

I wouldn't doubt it any. That's why I'm not turning the volume up a lot. Currently it's only driving some little wall mount speakers with approx two 1 1/2 inch speakers in them. The speaker wires are minimal in diameter also.

HTiB's usually only supply 20-18 gauge wiring which is sufficient for short runs especialy as the speakers they are driving require very little in the way of current as the drivers are usually small.

Ok. I've decided to go ahead and buy a receiver next week instead of monkeying aroung with the old system. Looking at the $500-700 range. So far, the Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH looks pretty good. I will probably go to a Best Buy Magnolia store soon and listen to the ones they have in this price range.

I would also consider something from Denon.

Yeah, the denon avr-2310ci is starting to look pretty good. Better if I can get it for around $700, instead of the $850 retail price.

where are you located? There are lots of online etailers, like 6ave.com , for example, that have great prices.

2310 is a good unit, I am impressed with mine so far. The Denon GUI (on screen interface) makes setup a breeze.

You may be able to find the 890, which is essentially the same thing just sold at the more mass - market stores like Best Buy or Amazon, for a little cheaper than a 2310.

CatBrat if you keep hanging out around here your wallet is going to be screaming out for help.

Found an open box for cheap...

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=97613

Still comes with full warranty.

Heck, I just found the 890 for $610 shipped new, but not from an authorized seller, so no warranty.

Check out this deal for the Denon 2310. Looks like an awesome price.

^Yeah, that's insane

I paid $740 Canadian for mine through a friend who runs an A/V shop in town, I thought that was good (they had it on sale in a flyer the same week for $999)

They say that manufacturers warranties are applicable and included, best to ask Denon to confirm though.

lol, sorry I edited my post, I saw the same thing you did

I'd be surprised if they are authorized though, for Denon to not have MAP pricing when all the other big guns are showing $849 seems odd.

$684 USD came up a few times on a search as well for the 2310.

I'm from Kansas City, Missouri. I'm used to ordering on-line as long as it's from a reputable company. I built a really good PC from ordering parts from newegg.com this spring and summer. Blew about $2000 on parts, but got a really good machine.

My original figure for HT was about $6500, but am trying to cut costs and still get something decent. Hence the M22 order I made today.

The hdtvdreams.com price seems too good to be true at around $580. Seems a little suspicous since they say the competitors sell same for around $1100 when retail was set at $850 though.

CB, I'm sure that you'll enjoy your M22s as I have mine for almost eight years now.

On the receiver, keep in mind the option of a factory refurbished unit at considerable savings. I've had good experiences with them and tend to agree with the view that they're more likely to be trouble-free than a brand-new unit.

One especially good buy at this time is the Onkyo 706 for about $450 with free shipping from Accessories4less , an authorized factory refurb dealer.

John, so the thought process is that a more experienced tech went over the unit and refurbed anything that needed it vs. new production techs that are just doing a job? I never thought of it that way but that does seem to make some sense?

This post intentionally deleted.

Concerning HDTVdreams.com, read the reviews. You probably won't be placing an order with them.

http://www.google.com/products/reviews?fq=denon+avr2310ci&cid=16e296b567e61a1f&sort=1&cat=merchants

I've had good luck with refurbs, too.

Well....I guess I will no longer just dismiss them out of hand. Having given it some thought, I was probably hasty in my dismissals all these years?

I've been a little skeptical about refurbs as well, though I have a Logitech remote and an Oppo 980H that have not given me any issues so far. Both looked brand new when I got them.

I'm thinking about either an Onkyo TX-SR806 or a Denon 2310ci receiver. I want something with the most sound/equalizer adjustments. Does anybody have any experience with either of these or have a better recommendation?

Also, I ordered the M22's and stands 2 days ago on Tuesday, and no word yet from Axiom about delivery. Is it typical to wait several days before they ship them?

If you happen to hit a point where they have none in stock, it could take one or two days, but that's rare. I would call them if I were you to make sure they received the order and that they can send you emails (it happened in the past that the ISP provider was bloking the emails).

Additional: They ship between 2 and 3 o'clock in the PM easten-time. If you ordered past 10-12 o'clock, it may have skipped a day entirely.

I called and was told they would ship today.

Good choice with the M22's and subwoofer, I've been enjoying mine for about a month now. Amazingly, they just keep sounding better the longer I listen to them. I have a dedicated HT room that is almost exactly the same size as yours (1100 cubic feet). I'm running the M22v2's up front along with the VP150 for center, QS4 surrounds, and EP350 sub. The M22's can play to crazy high levels with no distortion (I actually left the room last night with my ears ringing ). I'm driving them with a Denon AVR-1910 (little brother to the 2310) and have had no complaints whatsoever. Sound quality is top notch!

Both JC and Brent at Axiom suggested that I upgrade from the VP100 to the VP150...and I would suggest the same for you when the time comes around to purchase a center. I couldn't be happier with their recommendation. Movie dialogue is very clear, strong and natural...it never is drown out by the other speakers. Vocals from music played in surround mode are also excellent.

Enjoy those speakers...if you can survive the wait! My shipment got hung up in customs for an extra 4 days...I thought I was going to die!

LOL. Yeah I know the feeling. Looks like I probably won't see mine until Monday, since I'm having it delivered to where I work at. UPS just dumps stuff in front of my garage door and just leaves it there. So I feel safer having it delivered to work. (I know it's Fedex)

Besides the M22, I want the VP150, EP350, and 2 QS8's. I'm currently looking for a decent receiver with a lot of sound control/eq options. Next week, I should have around $900 to blow on one. I am a little concerned about the sound from the VP150/100 because of some reviews I've read elsewhere. But since I'm somewhat picky, a lot of sound options in the receiver would be best for me.

I don't know which implementations of Audyssey are installed on those models (and I'm just too lazy to look it up at the moment). I have read many observations that the MultiEQ XT is "better" than the plain 'ol "MultiEQ". YMMV.

Most of us that have the VP series speakers have never had problems with them. Many of the reviews are from a very close listening range on the VP150, which it was never meant for and the VP100 would have been a better choice. I own both and love each one.

As with any speaker, positioning can play a very large roll in what we hear and I think the poor reviews are from bad positioning of the speaker. I am sure you will find a position for yours that works best in your room. The few reviews that take measurements and complain about the combing effect, Alan has posted that this is a measureable issue but is not an audible problem and I would have to agree.

The Onkyo has dynamic EQ and the Denon has MultEQ. Thanks, because that led me to this site: http://www.audyssey.com/ where I can study it further.

I used to have the following system: Bose 901 speakers, Bose 250 wpc power amp, Soundcraftsmen pre-amp w/10 band per channel eq., Techniques turntable, Kenwood tuner. So I'm used to having a manually controlled equalizer. Not sure about the auto adjusting technology.

I'm of the opinion that if a speaker needs that much equalizing, it's probably not a good speaker. But I may just be oversimplifying things.

Cat, MultEQ is what they both have, Dynamic EQ is an additional feature on top of MultEQ that some models offer. Dynamic Volume is another. Onkyo also had MultEQ.

I agree with the VP150/M22 setup, and QS8's... I pretty much have the exact same setup, run with the 2310. I am picky when it comes to centers as I cannot stand not being able to hear dialogue clearly. I sit about 14' back from the center channel and it sounds great to me.

I too am not sold on Audyssey, but I think I'll run it here shortly and fine tune with the good 'ol SPL meter. One thing I don't want for sure is the dynamic EQ or especially dynamic compression turned on, which it sometimes does.

I've got good news and bad news.

Good news: My M22's finally shipped. Yeah!!!!!

Bad news: My car broke down (bad starter, I think), towed it to Good Year and will be carless until sometime tomorrow. (I'm currently at work). Cost, about $330 parts and labor. Already spent $135 on new battery. Will probably set me back a couple more weeks on getting a receiver. I'll be able to study them longer, but will have to just look at my new speakers instead of listening to them. (sob, sob). I had the car checked out earlier this week and they couldn't find anything wrong with it, including the starter.

Bad car, bad car. Not going to wash you for at least another couple of weeks.

Krap! car problems always happen when you least expect it.

...unless you can see that brick wall coming.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

On the plus side, $330 for a starter + install is CHEAP. Some cars you're looking at four times that.

Well, think of it this way: You have five senses and you can still touch, see, smell...and, if you wanted to push things a bit, taste your speaker.

Four outta five ain't bad.

Hmmm. I never thought of it that way. I wander if they go good with a little beer? You know, the dark ales.

"Yeah, I'd like to place an order for some M80s in the Boston Cherry Pie."

I don't know if I did the "right" thing or not, but I just ordered a Sony 5.1 STR-DH500 from newegg.com for $160. On the plus side, this should allow me to order the EP350 in about a week. Then at least I can run in stereo mode with a sub for now.

It's a cheap receiver, but it should do until I get everything else purchased, then I can opt for a good one later. It uses HDMI for video and optical for audio, which is what I'm doing now anyway.

Tater, maybe you've misunderstood the Dynamic EQ feature as compared to the Dynamic Volume, which is a type of volume compression and doesn't have to be used for most source material. The Dynamic EQ adjusts frequency response to compensate for our ears lower sensitivity to bass and treble at low volume levels and also increases the relative level of the surrounds in quieter passages. The general response to it has been highly favorable.

You're right, I didn't quite understand it by your definition... Sounds very interesting though. It sounds like it helps at lower volumes the most, which really won't help me a whole lot but perhaps it can't hurt to try it out. Does it react according to the volume the receiver is at, or according to the volume being output from a source (say a quiet scene in a movie)? If the latter, it sounds like a cool deal.

"Let's not biccer and argue over who killed who.....this is a happy occaision!"

After reading the reviews on the EP350, EP400 and EP500, it looks like the EP500 is the better contender for quality sound. Reviews said that the EP350 exhibited booming and port noise. That the EP400 was overpriced. That the EP500 didn't have booming and port noise.

I suspect the EP350 reviews depend very much on which version they reviewed. The v3 is head and shoulders above the v2, which was head and shoulders above the original.

I don't think I've ever heard boominess or port noise from my v3.

Ah. I didn't consider that. The reviews were older and the EP350 was 200 watts and $620 instead of 300 watts and $758. Don't know what version it is though.

Yeah, that's at most a v2. If the review has pictures, you can tell for sure. The v1 has a black dustcap and 2 vortex ports on the front. The v2 has no dustcap, but 2 vortex ports on the front. Both of these are also as deep as they are wide.

The v3 has no dustcap, has a slot port, and is as deep as it is tall.

Nice description, Ken. I barely even had a twinge of "show me a picture".

I was just reading an older thread here titled "QS4 vs QS8 ...." back in 2007. It was good and enlightening. It's the one where the surrounds were placed on soup cans. From reading this, I have decided to stay with the QS8, but to downgrade the center to the VP100, because it had more clarity for smaller rooms. The VP150 required more volume for the same sound.

I am pretty sure there is more than one "soup can stand" thread

I have the VP100 in a very large room and think it is wonderful.

An EP500 in your room size is serious overkill, which isn't bad, just excessive, which can be fun :D.

I have an SVS sub that powerwise is close to the EP500 in my room (again, about 1750 ft^3) and it's riciculous... WAY louder than you would ever actually ever want it to be.

The 500 would reach a few db's lower though for movies obviously. I wouldn't consider the 400 for you, I am pretty certain it is much more of a musical sub.

I agree, the QS8s are a better speaker, IMO and the VP100 sounds great, however, where did the last part come from? The VP150 is a 6ohm speaker so it actually requires less power to achieve the same volume level at least through my own testing.

Just reading this off of other reviews from off-axiom sites. Actually the VP150 probably is a better solution overall. Too bad there isn't one source of accurate info, but everybody has their opions and it goes from far left to far right over about everything, it seems.

I did get a new starter in my car for $313 and so far it's fixed.

I've decided on the EP350 based on the v3 improvement over the v2. I wasn't aware of that at the time earlier.

So I guess, so far my system will consist of (in my living room):

Axiom:
M22 with stands.
EP350 sub
Sony:
STR-DH500 receiver (cheep, cheep)
Samsung:
LN26B360
Disconnecting a Sony HT in a box.

--Then Next year add:

Axiom:
VP150v2 center.
2 QS8 surrounds.

Panasonic:
pt-ae4000u projector.
+ some sort of screen.

Onkyo:
receiver TX-NR806 or better.

Room:
12 wide by 11 deep by 8 high. Currently has hollow door, 2 windows, hardwood floor, 1 med closet, 1 small closet. Will need some soundproofing and sound damping. Will remove doors from closets, add a 2nd layer of sheetrock with green glue. Add something else to the floor (not sure what), +carpeting. Build sound dampers for the walls, that will also cover the windows. Replace hollow door with solid door. Install VHF antenna in attic in room above this one. Add some sort of lighting with dimmer switch. Would prefer the screen wall and ceiling in flat black, with the walls in Merlot red, some sort of medium to dark carpeting.

The 2 closets will both be 2 alcoves to the extreem left and right behind the seating area, Medium closet will be media storage room, and small closet will contain a small rack on wheels for equipment. Need to be able to roll it out for access to the attic in the ceiling.

Add seating. Hopefully theater seating.

Twa-la. Instant mini-theater.

Correction: UHF antenna, not VHF. Right now it's attached to an old pole lamp. Lamp and antenna going into attic soon.

Concerning seating, I've been thinking about this. I only have 96 inches for seats, which will give 2 feet of clearance on both sides. This should give me 1 row of 3 seats, which for me, would be about right. Two of my friends have bad backs, so I need back support. It might be that the old style seating with back support, if I can find it would be best.

Sounds like plan, looking forward to watching/hearing about the build process.

I got my M22's with stands today. I have it hooked up to a cheap Sony receiver STR-DH500. I wasn't impressed with the radio reception and hiss on the tuner, but the power it puts out is good. I've been listening to Gypsy Kings on it and I'm really impressed. The M22's definately went beyond my expectations. I don't have a sub hooked up and it still sounds good. Its hard to keep from wanting to crank the volume. Even the cat is impressed. She lay on the couch and just listened for about 30 minutes. Never did that before.

I've lost some of my high range hearing over the years. Too much loud music when I was younger. So for me a little brightness in the sound is welcome. What can I say? Who could keep from falling in love with the Axiom sound?

I need more cables before I can hook the TV up (1 HDMI and 1 optical audio). I plan on buying a 37 inch lcd this weekend to hang on the living room wall, then get 2 W3s and a W100 to mount around it near the end of December. I only have about $700 to blow on a TV, so I'm going to look at Nebrask Furniture mart. They have a better selection than Best Buy. Will look at Sam's Club first, though. Since I'm still set on a home theater, I feel I can sacrifice some on the quality of tv for now.

CB, for a highly-rated(December Consumer Reports) 37" LCD well within your budget, consider the Panasonic TC-L37S1 .

Thanks for the suggestion. Most of the amazon reviews look good, but with the 15000:1 contrast ratio, that might be a deal breaker. My 26 inch sammy is a 30000:1 and has fairly good black levels and I don't want to go worse than this.

Keep in mind most contrast ratios are just marketing BS.

True, even if they are actually doing something to measure. There is no actual measurement standard so they can all do it differently. Your eyes will have to be your guide to judge contrast. (and your fingers as they will be calibrated differently)

When I'm looking at the TV's all in a row at the stores, those with a lower contrast ratio "usually" have lighter blacks. Although, I've noticed recently that the cheaper TV manufacturers seem to be upping their ratios, even though the blacks aren't any darker.

One TV that caught my attention today is the Vizio VL370M. Contrast ratio 50,000:1, 1080p, at Sam's club for around $550.

http://www.vizio.com/review/product/list/id/114/

Once again, the contrast ratio number means nothing. Ignore it in the specs and continue to judge for yourself as you are doing.

Also, don't be afraid to ask if you can play with the settings. They will often have TVs set very differently. In fact, some places have been known to do this on purpose to grab your attention to a model they want to sell that week.

Actually many LCDs come from the factory on full brightness, the stores have nothing to with it, it is all marketing right from the source, but like Murph said some maybe dimmed to bring attention to the one with the highest margin for that week.

I am a pretty much die-hard Panasonic or Toshiba guy (or at least something Japanese) but apparently those Vizios are super popular. I don't know if I would buy one, but they certainly have the price point down.

It looks like Vizio also has a 1 year guarantee on the pixels, and I also read somewhere that Sam's club also has a 1 year, no hassle, return policy on TV's.

While looking at the Vizio though, it didn't seem to have those deep blacks like my Samsung does. It's hard not to go Samsung after you've had one for a while.

But I'll be doing some serious comparison shopping at Nebraska Furniture Mart soon. I'm going to take some notes, and rate the cheaper TV's. Will publish it here if I find anything worth publishing.

Well, I'm back from my trip to Nebraska Furniture Mart. They had about 8 37 inch lcd's to choose from. Once I saw the Samsung LN37B550 marked down to $694.99, there was no need to do much in the way of comparison shopping. I bought it. Saturday was last day for this particular sale.

Now when I was comparing the other TV's, looking at them head on there was very little difference, except for the Toshiba. It had a poorer PQ than the others. Some had wider viewing angles than others. But other than this, there were only minor differences in black levels. Unlike what it used to be. I used to see major differences.

Sounds like you will be happy with your choice.

The entire statements here are not the truth of the world. Don't read into people's personal opinions so much. Others will differ. But what they rarely tell you about, or accurately describe, is how these "differences" people speak of are ridiculously subtle.
I highly doubt you would notice any difference between the M60 and M80 unless you had them together in a blind instantaneous test.

Frankly i disagree entirely with the M80 is more/most accurate nonsense. It seems to be getting pushed onto the newbies around here lately in a brainwashing fashion.

But the M80s are so goooood...

Seriously? You'll love either one.

I have one thing to say......RIGHT ON! (for those of you who were around in the 60's & 70's.) Having said that, Truer words than Chesseroo's have never been uttered. As for the TV's - differences are very subtle and once you get one home, you don't have the other brands competing and you are going to love your TV. Same on the 60's vs 80's. I have said many times that I can not imagine speakers sounding much, if any better than the 60's. I keep poking a little fun at the 80's guys on here saying that they can't enjoy the 80's as much as the 60's due to the fact that the quality of sound is so great on the 80's that everyone passes out soon after beginning to listen. Nobody wants to take the bait though.........

I bought the M22's and I love the sound comming out of them.

Now that I've watched the Samsung LN37B55, I can say that I'm a little dissapointed. Looks fine in bright and ambient light, but when you turn the lights out at night, the darks are grayer than my Samsung LN26B360. Noticeable especially in the black bars in 2.40:1 movies. Also, the viewing angle is not as wide as I would like. But, I only paid 700 instead of 2500 for it. The lighting in the stores seems to be at optimum to make TV's look better that at home.

Have you calibrated the 37"?

Not yet. Just played around with the settings a bit. I have Digital Video Essentials: HD Basics Blu-ray (2008), but haven't had the time to do it yet. I used it on the smaller TV, but wasn't pleased with the results. I ended up using the "Standard" pre-set instead. If anyone knows of a better one, please let me know.

But, I don't think calibration will take the light out of the black bars and remove the occasional grayish overcast from the screen in a dark room.

"Movie" is usually the closest to what you actually want. The color temp should be Warm or 6500K.

You really need to use a disc to get the Brightness and Contrast set ideally. It takes a little practice, but once you understand what you're trying to do, it's easy to dial them in.

A disc and a blue filter are both required for the Color and Tint, but they are a little harder. The biggest problem is the blue filter is just that, a filter. Like all real-world filters it isn't a brick wall. It lets come colors other than blue through, so it's technically impossible to get the Color and Tint 100% judging only with the blue filter. But you can get them close.

Additionally: See if there's a backlight level control. Turning that down can help with light bleed in the black areas.

Removed content due to this info pertaining to a particular computer monitor and not my TV.

All my pro CRT video monitors have a blue-gun only mode for color bar calibration. Does anyone make a consumer monitor with a blue-only mode?

I wish. My old Sony I could go into the service menu and turn off the red and green guns (made it a little hard to see the menu after that to turn them back on). But that makes setting the color and tint a cake walk.

Some displays have a User Color mode. It may be possible to turn the red and green down to 0, while leaving the blue the same as it would be for the 6500K setting. This doesn't always work right. If the color bars look really wrong, then don't bother to try to set it using this technique. But if they look close, you're in luck.

I've been doing some searching on Samsung panel problems. It appears that they sometimes use off brand panels that have backlight and off-angle viewing issues like I'm having, and that Samsung quality is not what it used to be.

That's hard to believe. I don't know what "off brand" means exactly, but my understanding is that there are only a small handfull of LCD panel makers out there,...Samsung, Sony, Sharp(others?)...and THEY are the ones who supply other co's with "off brand panels". Samsung and Sony have a huge investment in their joint LCD developement so I doubt if they would be using other companies for panels...I can't carve that in stone, but it just doesn't sound right to me that they would use an outside source for something they invested so heavily in.

Honestly, when it comes to things like this, I think anyone can Google "problems with X Product" and receive lots of hits. I think that the people that are unhappy with something are the most vocal, and then others chime in because they "read it somewhere".

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be unhappy with your TV...for all I know, it really sucks... but I don't know if I'd trust something like that.

I know you can't believe everything you read on the internet. But when a 30,000:1 has a much better picture quality than a 70,000:1 by the same manufacturer, then it seems that "something" is amiss.

Given that LCD panels can't pull off much more than 1500:1 natively, and every panel made today does that. Anything more is from tricks with the backlight, and basically lies because you can't get near that with a uniform backlight with real content only test patterns.

So making the backlight able to dim down to just about nothing when measuring the black, and making it twice as bright as model which measures 30,000:1 will get you up to 70,000:1. But since real world pictures have bright areas on the screen most of the time the backlight will usually be run up almost all the way, washing out the blacks.

Again look around to see if there's a control for backlight levels, and cut it down. This may also be labeled as a power saver mode. Some sets also adjust the backlight to follow the Brightness or Contrast controls.

That said, I don't like Samsung sets. They may be the best of the cheap stuff, but they're still in the cheap pile. Panasonic or Sharp are the way to go for LCD (not that I'd buy an LCD anyway).

There is a "back light" adjustment on the Samsungs, which I'm going to play around with a little more. But another thing I'm going to do is examine the 26 and 37 inch together, by swapping the hdmi input back and forth while viewing the same material. After making sure all of the settings are the same, that is. Both of them have (almost) the same picture settings. If the 26 inch 30,000:1 is much better than the 37 inch 70,000:1, then it's going back to the store. (I would get a plasma, if I could find a 35-38 inch, 1080p in the $700 price range. I did some extensive previewing with a movie I brought of the 55 in Panasonic Viera S1 and it was crap. Too much green that can't be adjusted out.)

Also, a question on the W100 and W3 in/on wall speakers. I may have to call Brent for this, but I need to know how close to a wall stud for the W3 and how close to a horizontal header (Ceiling on other side of wall is 38 inches up on mounting wall) for the W100 can I mount them?

Well, that was certainly revealing. After doing a side by side comparison of the 26 and 37 inch Samsung TV's, I found absolutely no difference, except size when tended to amplify any problem areas that just made it "seem" to be inferior. Same black levels, and same off angle viewing problems.

(Patiently waiting for the "I told you so's".)

Well, you showed your self, so I guess you've got that "I'm from Missouri" thing pretty much covered

CB, you continue to quote those absurd advertised contrast ratios in the tens of thousands, although about the only way you'd get the screen that dark would be to pull the plug out of the wall. As Chris pointed out, a number around 1000, certainly not higher than 1500, is more realistic.

Since the black levels are so significant to you, it might have been a better idea to consider the 42" Panasonic plasma available for $600-$700 if it would fit your location.

Additionally don't worry about 1080p with displays smaller than 50". You just can't see the detail unless your nose is up against the panel. A 42" 720p plasma would deliver everything you want.

Thanks for the replies. Can't go 42" because of mounting 2 W3s. There are studs in the way in the wall. The 37" will put the speakers about 1 to 2 inches away from the sides of the TV. Can't mount on the other side of the studs because then there would be a door and a hallway in the way. I thought about the 720p for quite a while, but just wanted the 1080p. If I got the 720p, I would constantly be wanting to upgrade it again.

Also, concerning the under $700 37" plasmas, 1080p, the only one I could find that even looked halfway decent was the Panasonic S1 model, but the S1s suffer from a greenish overcast that can't be adjusted out. Reported by cnet and by my own observations.

Taking ClubNeon's advice, I turned the backlight adjustment down from 8 to 5 and there is a big improvement of the black levels. Particularly the upper and lower black bars. They are black now instead of a dark grey.

Can't do anything about the viewing angle, but it only affects one seating position out of 7. Not too bad. At, least it's not where I sit. lol.

Who needs more than 6 friends anyway? That's twice what I've ever had...

That's 'cause most people wouldn't want to be caught dead with a mortisian.

Funny.....

:: Note to self: Cross off that Caledon guy.... ::

errrr.....when a mortisian crosses your name off, what exactly does that mean?

You become mortisized?

The box is in the mail. Hole to follow...

Here's a picture of the Tv as I have it mounted in my living room. Haven't hid the cords, haven't installed W3 and W100, don't have a small cabinet/shelf for receiver/blu-ray. But you can see the space limitations I had there. It is the only wall in living room where it made sense for a tv.

(Tried to put a picture here, but there is no http address for it, it's just on my computer. How do I put a picture here?)

Added later: I just read the FAQ and I have to have the picture posted elsewhere on the web. Well, since I don't have anywhere to put it, I guess there won't be any pictures. Unless I can find a free space somewhere.

you have to host your pictures on an online website, like photobucket, then put the Image tag (img) in your post.

Maybe this time?

[img]http://s752.photobucket.com/albums/xx170/CatBrat_photos/TV_1[/img]

Or maybe this time?

[IMG]http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx170


Or, Maybe it will be this time?

<a href="http://s752.photobucket.com/albums/xx170/CatBrat_photos/?action=view¤t=DSC00124.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i752.photobucket.com/albums/xx170/CatBrat_photos/DSC00124.jpg" border="0" alt="TV_1"></a>

No. I think I've got it this time.

Some wire tucking and a small cabinet and thats gonna look really sharp!

Do you have another wall, where you can get more separation of the m22s?

Thanks. The wall color is a lot darker that what it looks here. More of an orangish red. It's called "clay pot". I can see the clay pot color here in the light of the flash, but the wall doesn't look that color at all.

If you can see the 2 small nail holes I made directly under the middle of the tv a few days ago. It's where I pushed 2 nails, from the room below into the corner of where the downstairs stud meets the header before it turns into the next floor up. (Notice the stairs on the right only go about 40 inches up to the next floor.) This tells me how far down on the wall to mount the tv. I'll have to remove that stud from the room below to make room for the W100 speaker.(It's not connected to the one I mounted the tv on.)

The M22's will be eventually placed in a different room that I will be turning into a theater room. I will mount W3 and w100 on this wall around the tv, probably in January.

Glad you are happy with the TV now, it sucks to buy something and not be happy with it.

I have a 50S1 set in the main room just for watching TV, haven't really noticed any green push with it, but I haven't run my calibration disc through it either. Ignorance is bliss with that one. The S1/G10 panel is pretty darn good though.

I was wanting the newer Panasonic V10, but changed my mind and decided to put the extra money into HT instead.

Although I'd really like to have the W100 and W3 speakers done in piano black finish to match my tv. I may have to spend extra on them to do this. Oh well, it's just money, right?

Life is short. I say as long as you are not skimping on the bills or endangering your kids education, enjoy it while you can.

Of course this is also why I would make a lousy investment adviser.

There's truth to it though Murph. You need to enjoy yourself. I like to save money and pay down the mortgage and those kinds of things, but if everything went to that and there was no playtime, I'd go mental.

True that guys!

Murph, if I ever make it out to PEI I'm stopping in. I have a feeling we could have some interesting conversations over a beer or two .

Just watch out for the black ice!!

I think you are right Cam. I'll make sure the beer stays chilled until it happens.

I was looking for some sort of cabinet/shelf to use for components. I was wanting to stack them on the left side, under the TV and put a small subwoofer on the right side. (Picture is on page 13). (Note: These 2 speakers will be replaced with W3 and W100). There is an existing stud located about even with the left side of the TV.

I found this product, made by Sanus Systems, the same company that made my tv wall bracket.

http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/elements/component-wall-mount/VMAV

Has anyone tried these? I'm trying to keep the footprint as small as possible, they extend out from the wall only about 14 inches. Some other shelves extended out about 19 to 22 inches, and was way too much.

Some reviews said that it was hard to place some components on these with feet that got in the way. But it seems to me that perhaps the feet could be removed.

Since the only speakers I have at the moment are 2 M22's, I've had my receiver set on stereo mode. But, last night I tried the music mode and the difference is like night and day. In music mode, I'm assuming, my receiver is in 5.1 mode. The amount of bass I hear went down, but the sound clarity went way up. Now when I listen in stereo mode, the sound is a little muffed sounding. It's probably because it's a cheap receiver but since it's the only one I've got, I don't know the answer to that question.