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#282303 - 12/13/09 11:13 PM Set on Axiom speakers, need avice
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
After much deliberation, I finally decided that the M60s would serve my needs well. I do 95% home theater and will be setting up a 5.1 system. Speakers will consist of the M60s, QS8s, VP150 and SVS PB12-NSD.

I am a perfectionist by nature so I am in a bit of a dilemma. Ideally, I would purchase the Emotiva UMC-1 paired with an XPA-5 to drive all my speakers. I don't want to short-change my experience by not giving these speakers the processing and power they need. But that means I would have to save up longer, and the wait is excruciating. I currently own an onkyo 606.

I don't really want to compromise while I get my whole system set up, but how will these speakers sound driven by the 606. If you all feel that the 606 will drive them adequately, I will make the jump soon. Like I said, I don't want to short change these awesome speakers.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282304 - 12/13/09 11:20 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Welcome to the forums Seeking

That is an excellent system you are putting together there including the SVS sub. Your Onkyo 606 will power all these speakers without any problems. Axiom towers like the M60 and M80 have high power handling, so in large/grand rooms an external amp can be beneficial for these speakers if you are trying to fill a really big space and need a larger headroom reserve for extreme dynamic passages which occur in a lot of movies. How big is your room, how far away will be your listening postions?

Cheers!
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#282306 - 12/13/09 11:36 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BlueJays1]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
My current home theater is located in my living room area that is 14'x14' that is somewhat sectioned off by a bar area that connects to the kitchen, so the whole area, I would say, is about 14'x32'x8'. I usually sit 10-12 feet away from the tv.

I will eventually add the Emotiva processor and amp to the system, but I am hoping the 606 will do the job for now. I am more concerned with clarity than how loud I can get the system. I live in a townhouse with a roommate and neighbors.

I guess what I am looking for is the wow factor with these speakers, even if they're driven by the 606. I have an entry polk audio system and they served me okay for a while. Now that I am seriously learning about home theater, the polks no longer cut the cheese.

Please advise

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/13/09 11:37 PM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282307 - 12/13/09 11:45 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
The Onkyo is more than capable to do the job. Does this receiver have pre-outs?
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#282310 - 12/13/09 11:54 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BlueJays1]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
no pre-outs.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282311 - 12/14/09 12:02 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
no pre-outs.

Seeking


Too bad. If/when you were to get an external amp I would have just recommended using the Onkyo as a pre-pro in the case it had pre-outs.

Keep us updated on your journey.

Cheers!
_________________________
Iím armed and Iím drinking. You donít want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#282313 - 12/14/09 12:12 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7059
Loc: Canada
You will be very happy with the performance of the M60s. They will be a definate step up from your entry level polks.

That 606 will have no trouble driving them to reference for movies.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#282320 - 12/14/09 01:13 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10398
Seek, welcome. Wherever you got the notion that the M60s might have some unusual power needs, there's no factual basis for it. The 606(and other similar receivers anywhere in the 100 watt area)have plenty of capacity to drive your M60s to beyond safe listening levels. You should be more concerned with yourself rather than about "short-changing" a mere tool.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#282321 - 12/14/09 01:34 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: JohnK]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Seek, welcome. Wherever you got the notion that the M60s might have some unusual power needs, there's no factual basis for it. The 606(and other similar receivers anywhere in the 100 watt area)have plenty of capacity to drive your M60s to beyond safe listening levels. You should be more concerned with yourself rather than about "short-changing" a mere tool.


Well, I am still in the learning process with home theater and I don't have much experience outside of my current system right now. The reason I posted this thread is to get advice from more experienced members, such as yourself, to guide me in the right direction.

I am pretty sure reading about specs and components on forums is quite different from actually experiencing it yourself, hence my concerns.

If you feel like the 606 is more than enough to drive these speaks, then I am more than willing to pull the trigger. I just had my reservations, being somewhat new to this and all.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but I am somewhat offended when you say I need to be more concerned with myself than short-changing some tool. I have certain expectations, considering the amount of money I will be spending on this hobby and I want the best experience I can get for the money. If this hobby entails these "tools", why do we go out of our way to spend so much money on them.

My apologies if I misread your post. Just looking for answers.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282322 - 12/14/09 01:35 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: JohnK]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Hi seeking, Iím presently using an Onkyo 3007 to drive 8 speakers in an 8.1 setup. Itís calibrated for 80dB but Iíve played it at 100dB average w/o any distortion. Iíve also use it to drive just my M80s to 100dB average at 11 feet away again w/o any distortion. So IMO 300w/ch is overkill especially for the VP150 and QS8s which you will likely cross over near 80Hz.

I was just in your shoes trying to decide how to upgrade, separates or receiver. Both the ďpowerĒ math and value lead me to getting a receiver. Any current Denon or Onkyo (and probably others) will give more processing options than the UMC-1. The ability to drive 7 to 9 channels (more with big bucks) w/o adding additional amps. And since I got one with pre-outs I can always amps to drive my M80s (the only speakers in my setup that IMO might benefit from more because I play them full range) or any of the other speakers.

Plus looking at the specs for the Emotiva stuff the only place they beat Onkyo and Denon is in the power department. While the UMC-1 does have some features most receivers donít itís trading that for less overall functionality.

Not to think Iím anti-Emotiva I have considered getting a XPA-3 for my front M80s should I ever feel I might benefit from more power. However, for now I donít want to have to wear hearing protection while sitting in my living room so the Onkyo will do.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282323 - 12/14/09 01:47 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
So from what I've gathered so far, any decent priced receiver should be able to drive these speakers with good sound quality at normal listening level. That is more than enough for my needs right now because I am more interested in detail than just pure volume. This eases a lot of my concerns and will save me a lot of money not having to extra for a pre/pro and amp off the bat.

I do have a soft spot for my 606. I think it's a stout little beast. Maybe I under estimated it after reading about so many high-end gear. Maybe it is my current speakers that are the culprits. No offense to polk lovers, but I just feel like my current speakers are a bit anemic and attempts to put out sounds they can't produce. The sound seems a little artificial to me.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282325 - 12/14/09 01:59 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: Seeking

If you feel like the 606 is more than enough to drive these speaks, then I am more than willing to pull the trigger. I just had my reservations, being somewhat new to this and all.



While not perfect this discussion and calculator below will give you some idea of how amp power relates to loudness and whatís considered normal for various types of music.

http://www.churchsoundguy.com/2009/05/how-much-amplifier-power-do-i-need.html

http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm

So roughly a pair of m60s (93dB in room efficiency) at 11Ē could play on your 606 at 80dB with 10dB of headroom for dynamic peaks. Now Iím not going to say that more headroom wouldn't help some but I would wait until you decide if you need more power to buy it. Speakers technology isnít going to suddenly take a leap however, the electronics side is rapidly changing so IMO your better off getting the speaker you want and worry about upgrading the electronics when you really feel you need to.

This talks about noise levels and exposure time for hearing loss. Keep in mind European guidelines are more strict. Also the frequency is also a factor but I would worry about that if your already near the damage threshold.

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/hearingloss.cfm




Edited by grunt (12/14/09 02:07 AM)
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282326 - 12/14/09 01:59 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10398
Seek, there was no reason to be offended, since I was referring to not playing source materials at levels that would permanently damage your hearing.

The great thing about the modern audio scene is how we can get great sound from relatively modest cost equipment such as Axiom speakers and many receivers(such as the 606)which supply transparent amplification without the need to spend "so much money".

One answer that I'll again submit is that we shouldn't exhibit the anthropomorphic tendency to assign human characteristics to inanimate equipment. I've seen on some other audio forums that newcomers have been chastised for not giving their speakers the power that they "deserve". All that's necessary is to have enough maximum power capacity so that the split-second peaks above the 1 watt or so needed for a comfortably loud average level can be accomodated.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#282327 - 12/14/09 02:04 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
So from what I've gathered so far, any decent priced receiver should be able to drive these speakers with good sound quality at normal listening level. That is more than enough for my needs right now because I am more interested in detail than just pure volume. This eases a lot of my concerns and will save me a lot of money not having to extra for a pre/pro and amp off the bat.

I do have a soft spot for my 606. I think it's a stout little beast. Maybe I under estimated it after reading about so many high-end gear. Maybe it is my current speakers that are the culprits. No offense to polk lovers, but I just feel like my current speakers are a bit anemic and attempts to put out sounds they can't produce. The sound seems a little artificial to me.

Seeking


IMO you are correct that any decent priced receiver will drive the system you are looking at just fine. So I would make the electronics choice based on features you want rather than just power. Also since you already have a capable receiver try it out first to see if you really think you need more power. My pocketbook has learned from experience to take things one step at a time in this hobby because often what you think you need you really donít. It might be ďniceĒ but not ďnecessary.Ē

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282328 - 12/14/09 02:13 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Dean,

Thanks for the insight on taking it one bit at a time. I think I got so caught up on getting everything at once and getting the best I can afford, even if I couldn't afford it.

I will try these speakers out with my current receiver, and I may just be happy with it to hold me off from upgrading anything for a little while. I do have a lot of love for my 606, I just wish I could say the same for my polks. I guess that is why I am here on this forum \:\)

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

Top
#282329 - 12/14/09 02:20 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Sounds like a good plan. I was in the same boat as you and the Axiom sales rep talked me down from an EP600 to an EP500 and from 7.1 to 5.1 both of which were good calls. However, later I gave in and got 2 more QS8s for 7.1 and only then realized that the QS speakers were so good that 5.1 really had been enough. But not all was lost now my 2nd pair of QS8s are my front ďHeightĒ speakers.

Also if you have the option donít overlook buying from the factor outlet (FO). All 11 of my Axiom speakers are FO and came w/o any issues. At most some people have had very minor cosmetic issues. So consider it if you havenít.

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282354 - 12/14/09 10:24 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Eric Crowder Offline
regular

Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 5
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
My current home theater is located in my living room area that is 14'x14' that is somewhat sectioned off by a bar area that connects to the kitchen, so the whole area, I would say, is about 14'x32'x8'. I usually sit 10-12 feet away from the tv.

I will eventually add the Emotiva processor and amp to the system, but I am hoping the 606 will do the job for now. I am more concerned with clarity than how loud I can get the system. I live in a townhouse with a roommate and neighbors.

I guess what I am looking for is the wow factor with these speakers, even if they're driven by the 606. I have an entry polk audio system and they served me okay for a while. Now that I am seriously learning about home theater, the polks no longer cut the cheese.

Please advise

Seeking





Everyone is totally missing the biggest problem with your setup, and believe me I know because I have the same problem....

Townhouse/neighbors. You say you normally listen at normal levels. The problem with movies, especially the blockbusters that we all love like the new Terminator, transformers, etc..., is that the dynamic range is so large, when you're listening to dialog at moderate levels, once the robots, aliens, enemy start to blow stuff up and shoot, it's gunna almost blow the roof off your townhouse. This is why we LOVE home theater, but your neighbor isn't going to love it. In the town house, all the LFE energy from the sub is going to transfer through the building materials into their home. There's no amount of sound proofing that will prevent this. They're going to be hearing(and feeling) boom boom boom during your movies (and music depending on what you're listening to). Just something to think about before you spend a lot of money. I'm starting to think of moving to a detached house with lots of space between neighbors so I can enjoy my HT at reference levels with out the constant guilt and eventual complaints.

-eric

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#282356 - 12/14/09 11:43 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
So from what I've gathered so far, any decent priced receiver should be able to drive these speakers with good sound quality at normal listening level. That is more than enough for my needs right now because I am more interested in detail than just pure volume. This eases a lot of my concerns and will save me a lot of money not having to extra for a pre/pro and amp off the bat.


Hi Seeking - I am 9 months into Axiom ownership so far. I also moved from entry level Polks into the Axiom W series. I did a crude A/B comparison when I first received the W22's and W150 with a much smaller and inferior amp compared to the Onkyo you currently have. The difference between the Polks and Axioms was incredible. I could hear nuances to guitar and string instruments that were just non-existent with the Polks. The reason why I say all of this is because 1) the W series is a compromise compared to the M60's you are considering and 2) the amp I was using at the time was inferior to your Onkyo and my experience was still a fantastic improvement - so it stands to reason with a better amp and better speakers you should be very pleased with the improvement you will get in sound quality.

Keep us posted and good luck with your purchase decisions1

Cheers,
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#282363 - 12/14/09 12:50 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: cb919]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Seeking, the biggest component to any system are the speakers, next would be the room environment and lastly the equipment driving it. If you look at tube amps most run very low power 30-50W and achieve great sound through efficient speakers like Axioms. Rest easy and try out the M60s.

I would suggest buying the M60s to see if you like the Axiom sound and if you approve of the M60 buy the rest of the system, if you complete all the purchases within the 30 day trial period you will still receive the 5% HT discount, I would ask about this but it applied to my purchases.

If the M60's do not WOW you, you can then trade up to the M80 and still only pay for the price difference between the M60 and M80s, Axiom covers the cost of shipping for both items and the prevoiusly mentioned 5% HT deal should still apply.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#282367 - 12/14/09 02:08 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Eric,

When I am watching movies by myself, I try to be courteous to my roommate and neighbors. Whenever I decide to indulge my aural senses, I usually invite my roommate to come enjoy the movie with me. He knows about my new obsession with audio gear and supports this hobby.

As far as my neighbor goes, he is a co-worker of mine and sometimes he plays his audio pretty loud so there is a mutual understanding there. Haha, I just have a feeling he'll be less understanding once I get the new speakers. I just don't try to abuse my privileges. My roommate is also my co-worker and a good friend.

The best thing about all this is the tower is 24/7 and so most of the time we all work opposing shifts, so all I have to do is look out the window for my neighbor's car and I am good to go.

Cb919,

I feel so much more at ease from reading your post. If you say your upgrade was night and day, then I am confident my 606 will be fine. I feel bad because I only had my 606 less than a year and my eyes have already wandered. I need to spend more quality time with her and show her more love.

Jakewash,

From all the positive reviews I've read on these speakers, I really have no doubt I will love these speakers. And it would be pretty hard to find anything close to the quality I read about at the same price. So when I do save up enough money for them, I am just going to order all the speakers at once because I don't want to audition the M60s, fall in love with them, and wait an excruciating 3-4 weeks extra for the rest of the speakers. If I don't like them, shipping won't be so bad for me.

I have been torn for a long while between the M22s, M60s, and M80s. At one point I wanted to save money and go with the M22s but having to get stands for them was a turn off for me. Then I wanted the M80s but they're a bit harder to drive and I don't listen to two channel music so I believe that would be overkill for me. The M60s are easier to drive and will be perfect for my needs.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282371 - 12/14/09 02:43 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8292
Loc: Tacoma
Seeking - I have a very similar setup to yours (M60, QS8, VP100, older SVS PB12-NSD) currently driven by an Onkyo 805. I "moved up" from a Denon 1804 a while back, but honestly, I did it because of processing rather than amplification. My room is quite a bit larger than yours, and the system really plays as loud as I need it to. I went from 5.1 to 7.1 and, in retrospect, the only thing it really did was scratch that itch. I do not notice a dramatic improvement, because the QS8's are already so good in 5.1.

My immediately previous system was a (decent) Polk sub/sat system. The Axioms remain a very significant improvement.

I went through the same process as you relative to the other Axiom models. I have heard the M80's, albeit in a different room. No regrets.

I ran the M60's without a sub for a while (saving up...) and thought they were just great with music. The sub is a big deal for Home Theatre, though.

I feel confident that you will enjoy the Axiom system you described, even without additional purchases.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#282376 - 12/14/09 03:18 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
Listener Offline
local

Registered: 09/05/08
Posts: 269
Loc: CT, US
If you're still looking for a vice I recommend single malt scotch and women.
_________________________
w22s, w150, qs8s, ep500

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#282378 - 12/14/09 03:28 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Listener]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Tomtuttle,

Thanks for the perspective. There's so much anticipation for the Emotiva UMC-1 that I do not hope it fails to deliver. If the UMC-1 turns out that it isn't what I was looking for, I will probably purchase an Onkyo 707 or a newer iteration when the time comes and pair that with the XPA-5.

Listener,

Haha, I have plenty of vices to keep me occupied but I prefer light beer on most days and darker beers for enjoyment. As far as women goes, I am trying to avoid them in order to buy these speakers =). Once I get all of my toys out the way, I'll try to dive back into the sea of fish. Hey, and maybe these speakers will help blow them out the water so they're easier to catch =).

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/14/09 03:30 PM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282379 - 12/14/09 03:38 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
Once I get all of my toys out the way,


Does that ever happen?
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#282386 - 12/14/09 04:37 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
I only get them out of my way to make room for new ones \:D
_________________________
Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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#282425 - 12/14/09 07:15 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
Once I get all of my toys out the way,


Does that ever happen?


Not in my experiences.

There is always a newer, better, sleeker toy out there waiting for us when we're done playing with our current toy. But I suppose the same can be said about women.

On the subject of Axiom speakers... As many others have already commented, I'm sure you will definately be delighted in the upgrade from your Polks to the M60 combo. I remember wanting to get every single thing I desired in my HT all at once just like you, so that I could sit back and enjoy my system to the fullest right out of the gate. However I now have a different point of view... I am now more inclined to piece a system together one piece at a time (as much as it can be that is. Naturally you can't just buy a set of speakers and not have anything to hook them up to and drive them with). This way I can really research my purchase thoroughly and make sure I've purchased the equipment that best fits my needs. And it also let's me hear the differences that each component makes to the package as a whole. Otherwise if you get everything you could possibly get, hook it all up, hit play and it sounds like CRAP, you're not going to have a clear picture of what could be causing the problem.

By anchoring your HT with a few solid pieces that you know work well together, and putting the rest together one piece at a time, you get a better understanding of what part does what, and how it effects the rest of the equipment.

For instance I've test driven a few Blu-Ray players out and have yet to find the one that really makes my hairs stand up on end. My next lab rat will be the Oppo unit that's been touted around here since it came to market. I'm hoping it does everything I want a Blu-Ray player to do. If not, then I'll send it back and keep looking.

Good luck in your quest! ;\)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#282426 - 12/14/09 07:20 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7059
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I'm starting to think of moving to a detached house with lots of space between neighbors so I can enjoy my HT at reference levels with out the constant guilt and eventual complaints.


House: [noun] the most underated piece of audio equipment you will ever buy
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#282428 - 12/14/09 07:27 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7059
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
My pocketbook has learned from experience to take things one step at a time in this hobby because often what you think you need you really donít.

Excellent advice Dean. I bought an inexpensive refurb. Sherwood receiver that I used for 1.5 years while I figured out all the high def. stuff. It gave me time to read and figure out what it was I really wanted in a receiver. I am now quite happy with my Denon 2808 with a mere 110 wpc. It has all the bells and whistles important to me plus pre-outs if I ever win several million and buy a mansion. ;\)
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#282435 - 12/14/09 08:04 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Micah,

I guess when I say get my toys out the way, I meant just all the speakers to hold me off for a while. Then everything else will come one by one.

I think I could use some of your wisdom. I like the idea of piecing the speakers together piece by piece and hearing how each component adds to the experience.

I am really interested in getting into two channel listening. I am going to purchase the M60s as my first upgrade and see how they sound alone and hear what they can do for music. I am sure they will sound great, and this way I can satisfy my urges sooner. After I spend some time with the M60s, I will come back and ask for suggestions on what the next upgrade after that will be.

I will not be combining any of my new speakers with my old ones. Some may frown upon that, and I don't really know how to explain why I feel that way.

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/14/09 08:05 PM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282444 - 12/14/09 09:15 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
I forgot to point out that it also helps you appreciate each component more when you unwrap it, plug it in, and enjoy just that piece rather than plugging 15 things into eachother. Don't get me wrong, you'll love a 9.1 system right out of the gate just fine. It's just a bit more savoring when you put it together one or two pieces at a time.

I think you've done a very good job at researching your purchase so far. Many out there run out and buy the first thing that they see when they walk into a big-box store or open the first page of a Home Audio magazine without ever giving it a listen, weighing the pro's and con's, pricing the competition, or posting on a company's forum to see what the people who live with their products on a daily basis have to say about them. So kudo's to you for that.

Not wanting to mix-n-match speakers was also where I was at when I bought my Epic 80/800 combo. My previous HT system was comprised of not only different types of speakers (of my 6 surround speakers, 2 were direct radiating, and the other 4 were diffuse surrounds), but also two different manufacturers (Cerwin Vega towers, center channel & subwoofer. Cambridge Soundworks surrounds). At the time I was very happy with what it did for me. Keep in mind I was upgrading from a simple, cheap Sony rack system with Aiwa surround and center channel speakers... so just about anything would have been an improvement. But once it was time to upgrade again, I wanted to go with one company for all of my speaker needs, much as you are (besides your subwoofer). The reason for this is I didn't want to mix my mains that might be laid back sounding, with surrounds that might sound brighter... or vice/versa. I was also thinking about the asthetics, since the room they were going into doubles as our sales room, I wanted everything to 'flow', as well as possible.

I'm not here to say I have any regrets what-so-ever with my choice, as my expectations were exceeded beyond my wildest dreams... but I will say that I wouldn't go as far as to say that if you don't match all of your speakers to one brand name then you're doing something wrong. I think it's just up to whoever is putting together the HT system to decide if they want them all to match or not. So if you don't want to use your old speakers in your new system, if that works for you then go for it.
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#282447 - 12/14/09 09:35 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Seeking Ė

Iím certain youíll enjoy the Axiomís youíve selected. From what I can tell, the vast majority of folks on the internet who donít like Axioms are the ones whoíve never heard them.

In regards to your audio processor needs, Iíd steer clear of Emo stuff. Ya, youíll find a ton of folks who slobber praise all over them, but they are not cutting edge by any stretch and youíll find just as many folks who are disappointed with their stuff as the other half. With the way HD has been going, and you are buying new, get the most up to date processor you can afford. Currently, Denon has the edge. Iíd look to either the 4310 or the 4810 depending on your budget. Both will drive the M60ís without issue, and will even drive the M80ís without a whimper. Donít let MSRP scare you either. You can get them at least 30% under that. The Denonís are virtually unlimited with how you can set them up. So much so, they baffle the best of us.
_________________________


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#282450 - 12/14/09 09:40 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Micah,

You're really giving me a lot of great insight, and it's great to know that your earlier experience with HT is similiar to the way I want to do things.

One of my favorite things to do is consumer product research. I find something I am really interested in and try to learn as much as I am able. Sometimes, a lot of the more technical stuff goes way over my head, but it's always fun to read. As far as I am concerned, I think Axiom is a great value and great brand of speakers and I am sure everyone on this forum can attest to that.

The reason why I said I didn't know how to explain why I don't want to mix my speakers is because I didn't want to sound like I was getting too big for my own breeches. I really didn't want to mix two different quality speaker brands together. I'd rather piece the axioms together one by one and enjoy the sound quality on their own. I can be patient in that respect. I didn't want to cheapen the experience (I hope I don't offend any polk audio fans) by mixing lower quality speakers with the axiom. It really isn't Polk Audio's fault that I decided to go with their entry level speakers as my first foray into HT. I am sure their higher tier speakers are great.

Well, have to cut this short, will finish when I get back. Work calls.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282456 - 12/14/09 10:12 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: fredk]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: fredk

House: [noun] the most underated piece of audio equipment you will ever buy


Having just moved from an apartment 9 months ago I couldnít agree with you more!
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282483 - 12/15/09 03:12 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: michael_d]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
michael_d,

Your suggestion on steering clear of Emotiva certainly does give me something to think about. A lot of people do give Emotiva a lot of praise and it seems like a lot of bang for the buck.

I really haven't heard a lot of complaints about their amps, and I would really like to try one out for myself before I come to any conclusions. I can see that a lot of members on this forum are partial to Denon's receivers.

I don't have any experience so far with pre/pro and amp combo, so any advice is always welcomed. Would you elaborate more on why you would advise against Emotiva products?

Seeking

Addendum: I just went back read your post and I am getting the impression that you're referring to Emotiva's processor and not their whole line of products in general. Correct me if I am wrong. What are your thoughts on their amps?

Basically, my needs are very simple. Best sound quality possible at a great value. I don't need anything fancy because I like to keep things simple. I will be looking more into Denons and Onkyos for my needs.


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/15/09 03:18 AM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282486 - 12/15/09 05:02 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Needs and wants are two different things. The Onkyo's/Denon's will fullfil your needs, Outlaw, Emotiva, any external amp will fill those desires.

Many of us on the forum are looking into pro/Dj amps, cheaper costs and more power \:\) Crown, Behringer, Qsc to name a few.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#282510 - 12/15/09 12:01 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Just when I thought I had made up my mind with the M60s, I am now stricken again with indecision. I never knew it was so hard to pick just one set of speakers from one company. I would assume most of you have had this issue with Axiom speakers.

I figured that since I am now practicing patience and putting my system together one step at a time, I should save up for the best so I don't have any nagging questions of "what ifs."

I first considered saving enough initially to purchase a pre/pro and a set of M80s. Yeah, this makes a lot of sense since I am being patient and getting the best I can afford, but dropping down at least $2,500 initially for a two channel set up is more than I can swallow. That's when the M22s came to mind again.

I know the reason why I am in limbo with my decision is because the M22s, M60s, and M80s are all great deals at their respective price point, and realistically, the M60s and M80s aren't out of reach for being the company's top of the line tower speakers. I know I want to eventually get the M80s down the road when my system have enough processing and power to drive these speakers with authority. I feel like If I started off with the M60s, it'd be hard to cut my losses or try to sell the M60s to upgrade for the M80s. I just feel like the M60s would be a compromise between the M22s and the top-of-the-line M80s. By no means am I implying that the M60s are bad speaker, I just mean so more on the lines of cost.

I think the M22s are stout little speakers and an inexpensive way to enter into the higher quality speaker arena. I believe the M22s and my Onkyo 606 would be a good marriage. I would even go as far to to say they were meant for each other =). The M22s will only cost about $450 from FO and I can pair it up initially with the SVS PB12-NSD at a price point that I am more than happy to accept. The M22s will introduce me to two channel music listening and the 2.1 setup will be adequate for movies until I am able to piece all my speakers together. When it is time for the M80s to replace them, I could move these speakers to my room for computer and two channel use or even as rear surrounds.

I hate being indecisive because it is frustrating to me and maybe even to some of the members that have been keeping up with this post. Hopefully I will have it figured out soon. I guess this is part of the fun, doing your research, picking other people's brain, making the purchase, sitting back with complete satisfaction knowing you made the right choice with a silly grin on your face.

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/15/09 12:05 PM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282511 - 12/15/09 12:38 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Seeking, I believe you've answered your own question. There would be no point to get M60s if you intend to get M80s a little later on. Get the M22s for now, by all accounts they are wonderfull speakers...when funds permit later on, get your tower speakers and use the 22s in another room or maybe as rears in a 7.1 system.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#282514 - 12/15/09 12:54 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Adrian]
Argon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Oak Ridge, NC
 Originally Posted By: Adrian
Seeking, I believe you've answered your own question. There would be no point to get M60s if you intend to get M80s a little later on. Get the M22s for now, by all accounts they are wonderfull speakers...when funds permit later on, get your tower speakers and use the 22s in another room or maybe as rears in a 7.1 system.


I agree with Adrian - given that you have apparently made up your mind to eventually get the 80's. But....as I have posted on several occaisions, I have the M60's and it is difficult to imagine that any speaker could sound much better. I am normally one that does go ahead and wait the extra time or saves the extra money to get the Top of the Line - but I can assure you that once I hade the 60's set up, I have never regretted or second guessed my decision. YMMV.
_________________________
"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill

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#282519 - 12/15/09 01:40 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Argon]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Seeking, you haven't filled your profile out completely, where do you live? I think the best thing you could do is go audition a pair of Axioms for yourself. If you live near any of the Axiom regulars here, I'm sure one of them would be happy to have you. This is how I started my journey into Axiom ownership. Like you, I had all but made my mind up on a pair of M80's. Then when it came time to pull the trigger, I started to freeze because I was worried about spending so much money on speakers I'd never even listened to. That's when SRoode graciously invited me to come audition his set-up. The experience couldn't have been any better for me. Not only did those speakers completely blow me away, but the whole visit was just an excellent time, a very fond memory for me indeed. I was hooked from that moment, I HAD to have those speakers!

I'm not implying that you HAVE to get the M80's, I think you'll be very satisfied with any of the speakers you're considering. I'm just saying if you have the opportunity to audition any Axiom product at all, I would highly recommend it. And don't sweat the decision too hard, because their 30 day return policy is fool proof. You could try out each of these speakers in your home and return them within the 30 day trial period and then try another pair until you find the one's you are happy with.

The same also goes for the Emotiva's. And as far as your choice of either the M22's or M60's goes, I don't recall anyone having problems with Emotiva's powering them. It's when you upgrade to the M80's that they can be problematic. M80's are finicky about what they want powering them. So if you think you will eventually wind up with M80's, then perhaps you should look elsewhere. I have the Emotiva XPA-3 pushing my M80's, but there was a learning curve involved in teaching them to 'get along'. Oh yes, the M80's are definately the bullies of the playground! \:\)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#282522 - 12/15/09 01:51 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
I usually don't take a lot of time on any forums to fill out profiles. I usually have a hard time figuring them out and just want to get to the meat and potatoes of reading and posting.

I am currently stationed in Little Rock Air Force Base. I've only been here for about a year and haven't really gotten to know the whole place too well.

I do plan to pair up the M80s with an XPA-5. I haven't heard any issues with those two working together and I figure that would be enough power for me for a while. If the M80s come out with a new version or some new iteration of the XPA-2s, I would definitely do that combo, but that's down the line and it hurts my bank account to even entertain that thought right now.

There are a lot of times when I try to rationalize myself out of spending money on this hobby, but forums like these fuels my addiction and urges to spend money.

Micah, I was reading your thread on your ordeal with the Ep-800 subs. Got close to the end and it got crazy so I couldn't finish the thread. What sub are you running now or did you ever get it figured out?

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/15/09 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282524 - 12/15/09 01:57 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Hi seeking, I hadnít mentioned anything because you seemed to have made your mind up but Adrians advice is borne out by my experience. I have both M80s and M22s. Got the M80s first thinking Iíd just get the best and be done with it. Later I picked up the M22s to try against a pair of QS8s as rear speakers for a 7.1 system. I liked the M22s so much that I couldnít send them back. They are IMO the best Axiom speaker for the money. However, I feel they do need a subwoofer to really play full range.

My M22s + sub sound about 95% as good as the M80s + sub which would have been more than enough for in my apartment. The M80 + sub combo has a little more mid/upper bass and also sounds better to me in a large room. One advantage to using a M22 + sub combo in a townhouse/apartment is that when you canít crank up your system you can just use the M22s leaving the sub and most of the offending low frequencies out. On the occasions when you can play loud turn the sub on and youíve got an awesome 2.1 or eventually surround system. Also, save some money and make your own stands. Presently my M22s are set up on milk crates as DSX wide speakers and they blend with my M80s perfectly.

One more thing you might consider if you can fit one, is getting a third M22 to use as a center channel. Vertically arrayed speakers have better horizontal dispersion characteristics than traditional horizontal center speakers. Also the best possible combination of speakers up front L/C/R are three identical ones. Using an identical center channel to your L/R mains makes sense for the same reasons using identical L/R stereo speakers does. Speakers that share a lot of audio playback between them the way the front speakers do benefit from being the same. IMO the M22 is best matching center speaker for the M80s except for another M80 others opinions may vary however.

Also, a single M22 costs a lot less than a VP150 which means you might be able to get a center speaker sooner which can be important for some movies where you might want to boost the center channel to get better dialogue especially if you want to hear the dialogue better while not blowing people away with the music and effects coming from the mains.

Depending on your room adding a center channel may also allow you to move your L/R mains farther apart which may better enhance the surround effects even using just front speakers. Doubly so if you get a processor that has any sort of simulated surround processing built in.

As to Emotiva vs Denon and Onkyo et al. I share the opinion that you are limiting yourself with the UMC-1. Itís already out of date as a processor and I donít even think itís shipping yet. If you buy a good receiver it can power your entire system unless/until you feel the need for more power. Then you can add an Emotiva 2 or 3 channel amp to power your front speakers where the extra power will really matter. Plus with a receiver if a multi-channel amp goes out at least you can still power your system until itís repaired/replaced.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282525 - 12/15/09 02:04 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5886
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Has anyone mentioned the Axiom trade up program here? Does this program even exist? I've heard others mention it, but I can't find any info anywhere. Perhaps it is something that Axiom has done for just a few customers. Could perhaps someone from Axiom answer this question for me.

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#282527 - 12/15/09 02:07 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: CatBrat]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8292
Loc: Tacoma
It exists. You need to CALL Axiom on the phone.
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#282528 - 12/15/09 02:11 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: CatBrat]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3270
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
_________________________
E = MC2 = ((2M80 + VP180 + 4QS8)/(EP800 + EP500))^(ADA1500 x D2v)
Audiobytes! 2M22! 2VP150!

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#282530 - 12/15/09 02:15 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Grunt,

That is a lot of options you have provide me. They all sound great, and I like to hear that you feel the M22s + Sub combo comes in at 95% of the performance of the M80s + Sub.

The reason I have decided to eventually get the M80s is because I want to get into 2 channel music, and everyone on here says they're great for that task.

For the time being, and thanks to you all for this, I feel like my Onkyo 606 still has a lot to offer in terms of quality and power. I am not looking to bring down the house. I am starting to question my needs for the UMC-1 and will have to read up on the reviews to pass any judgments when it ships. Like I mentioned before, I am not looking for the most feature-laden receiver or pre/pro out there. I am more interested in sound quality. I have considered an Onkyo 707 as a pre/pro to use with the XPA-5 eventually, or any receiver in that price range as long as I am not sacrificing too much sound quality. I don't want to spend a lot of money in the processing department because that gets updated to frequently it would break the bank just to try to keep up.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282535 - 12/15/09 02:46 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Regarding my Emo comments, I should not have said anything as I donít like getting into those discussions on forums (and have refrained from doing so for a long time). They inevitably end up with hard feelings as the brand does have a large internet forum following. As you said yourself, they provide a good bang for the buck. The bulk of folks who search for A/V stuff on the net are looking for just that, bang for the buck.

I think Emo is still a fledgling company. They are trying very hard to bring a good product to market, ďa good bang for the buckĒ. I feel that they are making compromises and sacrificing quality control, beta testing, and manufacturing tolerances to meet that target Ė bang for the buck. They have had issues with their amps. More so than many other manufactures. Enough for me to see a trend. I do not like their responses to some of the problems Iíve been privy to. I find their blanket response to the M80ís to be unacceptable. They continue to blame the speaker and do not own up to their product limitations. Their audio processors are lacking functionality and I think if you search user comments, youíll see what Iím talking about. Having said all that, I believe that if Emo can weather the current economic storm, bank more investment capitol and gain a stronger footing in the market of electronics, within five years they will be a product the big boys will have to contend with.

Regarding the M22 verses M60 verses M80 discussion, you need to decide what you want. M22ís are dandy bookshelf speaker. I have a set. With a sub, they sound great for HT or Stereo. But keep in mind that they are a bookshelf. They canít compete with the towers. It is unfair to put them in the ring together. I have M80ís and have not heard M60ís. The 80ís will blow your socks off. However, I would not hesitate to sell mine and pick up a set of M60ís though. As a matter of fact, that is my current plan. For my HT, the M80ís are too tall and interfere with my screen. I am going to buy M60ís to replace the M80ís and I am not worried about that in the least bit. Now if I was in need of speakers for a gymnasium, I would stick with the M80ís. But in truth, they are overkill for most home owners.

If I were in your shoes, knowing what I know today, I would buy a set of M60ís and find a Denon 3808 or 4308 from an authorized dealer that is trying to move them off the shelf to make room for the new line of receivers. A couple months ago you could find 3808ís for about $800. I currently use a 3808 as a pre-pro. I really have no desire to upgrade or replace it other than a curiosity to try the new height and width speaker set ups. I donít wear Rolex, but Iím not strapped for cash either. If I really wanted to spend the money on high dollar separates, I would. Iím quite content with my Ďhumbleí 3808. I bought the amps to experiment. The differences I was able to hear are not significant enough for me to recommend that anyone buy them unless they have the cash burning a hole in their pocket. The 3808 drives my M80ís on its own without any issue well above a DB level that any non-hearing impaired sane individual can stand. If you go this route, instead of one of the new Denons, the only thing you will be loosing is DDPLIIZ and Audeyssy DSX (width / height). This is a new thing and user comments are mixed to whether it is worth it or not. In your case, with your room layout, height and width sound like they would be difficult to accommodate.

By the way, I am not a brand loyalist. I look for a product that meets my needs, has good customer support and is not plagued with bugs. I look for trends. When I see a product with mixed reviews and user comments, I pay close attention to those. This ďhobbyĒ is supposed to be fun. It is not fun spending time and money resolving problems instead of just pushing the power button and enjoying whatís on the screen or coming from the speakers.

I continue to recommend the Denons becuse the damn things just work, and work well.

PS: Thank you for your service. I'm a combat vet and feel for our troops in harms way.
_________________________


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#282538 - 12/15/09 03:02 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: michael_d]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
michael_d,

Thank you for your services!

You give an interesting perspective on Emotiva as a company. I, too, have read the debates between he said she said concerning the M80s and the XPA-2. It really left a bad taste in my mouth, and thus, I shied away from the thought of the M80s for a while. Not because I felt like the M80s were at fault but I just didn't think I could afford anything to drive them currently. From my perusal of the debates, the M80s worked fine with many other reputable receivers, and it felt like Emotiva was trying to point the finger instead of trying to come up with a solution. Be advised, I am not talking down on Emotiva, I just find that topic to be a gray area.

I wouldn't want to kid myself in saying that the M22s are on equal footing as its bigger brothers. But from all accounts they are great speakers and inexpensive for me to jump into on my way to audio joy.

The more I read this forum the more I am sensing that a good receiver such as Denon and Onkyo and many other brands would be more than enough for most people's needs. I am getting the impression that a separate amp is more of a want than a realistic need to drive these speakers.

I have really learned a lot from everyone who have helped answered my concerns and questions. This really is one of the more helpful forums with friendly members trying to guide each other in the right path. Thanks.

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/15/09 03:05 PM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282573 - 12/15/09 08:24 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7059
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I have considered an Onkyo 707 as a pre/pro to use with the XPA-5 eventually, or any receiver in that price range as long as I am not sacrificing too much sound quality.


That would be a good choice. I think companies like Emotiva are in a tight spot. The quality of electronics these days is very high as is the cost of entry. Denon and Onkyo can spread their fixed costs like R&D over hundreds of thousands of units and generate a decent profit on thin margins.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#282583 - 12/15/09 09:55 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Seeking, your concern about powering the M80s is not uncommon re the 4ohm load. I had this concern myself, a year ago, when I was looking for an AVR to power my M80 fronted HT and was assured by the members here as well as both Brent and Alan from Axiom that my choice of a Denon 2809 would be fine...and they were right. One year later, everything is fine, no issues at all. I'm sure someone has already mentioned it, but look for an AVR with pre-outs just in case you move to a much larger HT or if you really don't like your neighbours.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#282612 - 12/16/09 07:17 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Adrian]
Gringo Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Seeking, I can't add too much to this but I just wanted to mention that I currently run a 3.0 system. I have M80's up front along with a very old Axiom Centre (not even sure what model it is anymore!) I got my M80's along with a Denon 3808 because I wanted to listen to great music but have some bells and whistles for HT as I expanded. I thought long and hard about the M60's or M80's and I know it is pretty juvenile but I went with the M80's because I didn't ever want to have that voice in my head saying "These are great...but I wonder what the M80's would sound like?".

For the record this initial setup of mine sounds senstaional and I am glad I spent my $ on fewer (but higher spec'd) parts. For what it is worth - I would getthe M80's asap and run them with your current Onkyo. When you can, upgrade the amp and so on.

One more thing...I don't know much about the EMO stuff (I am in Australia and we never see it here), but the networking of the Denon has proven to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for me. I know other brands do it as well so not just a Denon rave but I get SO much more use out of my system because of this little feature. IMO get something with networking functionality.

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#282622 - 12/16/09 10:07 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Gringo]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Gringo,

I really wish I had the kind of change sitting around to drop on a set of M80s and a receiver like the Denon 3808's price range. That could take me a few months to save up for and I am not the most patient person.

My first set of purchase will be the M22s and an SVS PB12-NSD. This will put me in a little over 1K and I can definitely manage that once tax season comes around. I am very excited to hear what the M22s will sound like and I would like hear the kind of bass I know I am craving from the PB12. I think this combo will run fine with my 606. I will be looking to upgrade my receiver after I have set up my 5.1 if I feel like I need more power.

I haven't really read much on what the networking capabilities are. I usually like to keep the features simple because I rarely use a lot of them that comes with my electronic gear.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282624 - 12/16/09 10:19 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Been wondering about what would be the best way to listen to music and concert blus. Which would be a better listening experience for music, the M22s for strictly two channels or the M22s + Sub.

I've heard some things about SACD but never really got interested to find out much about it until recent when I decided I will be giving 2 channel music listening a try. I've tried doing a few searches on amazon but nothing usually comes up. Are SACD better than Blus for music?

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282630 - 12/16/09 10:42 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
I'm sure you'll find that a good sub will add a lot to your enjoyment of music just as it does to movies.

When you are searching on Amazon, you should get a number of hits from "SACD" or "hybrid cd" ect.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#282632 - 12/16/09 10:48 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
While there's not as much musical content in the subwoofer range as what you'll find in a blockbuster film, there are still some frequencies which may be better handled by a sub rather than running the M22s in full-range. Some receivers make switching between stereo with a cross-over for the sub, and a pure direct to the pair of speakers as easy as changing a listening mode. That way you can pick which sounds best for the current music.

SACD is basically a dead format. There may be a few releases here and there, but expect more and more high-res audio content to start showing up on BD. Sony's use of DSD encoding on the SACD format created more problems than it solved. Sure it was high resolution, but made it impossible to do anything more complex than buffering channels for a bit of delay for time alignment. There was no way to process the stream for setting a crossover point, let alone any fancy room correction. Later came a way to convert DSD into PCM which could be manipulated easily, but lost the point of using the more "analog-like" DSD.

Sony seems to have little use for their own encoding formats, and let them fall to the side rather easily. They also came up with a lossy compression scheme, ATRAC (and later added a lossless extension), but it never got use outside of MiniDisc and some studio gear. A derivative became SDDS which Sony uses in some theathers. But again Sony didn't push for its inclusion in DVD or BD.

Anyway, where I was headed, SACD while presenting single bits at rate of 2.8 MHz, in reality it can only reproduce audio information up to about a frequency double that of conventional CDs. Where as BD can have stereo or 5.1 tracks encoded at 192 kHz, which yeilds a Nyquist limit 4 times that of CD.

To answer your question. BD has the ability to grow to be a better format for music than SACD.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#282649 - 12/16/09 12:22 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: ClubNeon]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
To achieve the FULL range of sound you need to run the M22s with a sub, that goes for pretty much any bookshelf not just M22s. The little enclosures of bookshelves just do not allow for good low frequency, 80hz and lower, representation.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#282652 - 12/16/09 12:32 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
jakewash,

I will definitely pair the M22s with a subwoofer. The reason I posed the question is whether or not I would be taking away from the pure two channel listen that a lot of the members on here do. I don't want the sub to overpower the M22s as I've heard some people say.

I know the M22s aren't full range speakers like the M80s and could use a little help from a subwoofer, but if you think the M22s + sub combo will be great for music, then I will definitely take your word for it. I think it would be a great combo and I can't wait until after the holidays to make the leap!

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282656 - 12/16/09 12:52 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The trick is to have the sub calibrated to the same SPL levels as the M22s, this way it will never overpower the M22s and if you feel it is overpowering them you can always turn the sub down a db or 2.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#282658 - 12/16/09 01:10 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
In addendum, there are several people who have compared M22's + Sub to M80's and have found them to be very similar. I remember Alan stating as much to me before I bought my setup.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#282662 - 12/16/09 01:58 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Adrian]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Hi seeking, using a subwoofer with speakers for music should present no problem if you calibrate the subwoofer to match the SPL of the M22s like jakewash said. Doing this is similar to turning the 2-way M22 into a 3-way speaker like the M80 or M60. Youíre adding another driver and a crossover to divide up the signal. The only noticeable difference Iíve heard with the M22 + sub setup vs the M80 + sub setup is more forceful mid and upper bass with the M80 combo. However, if I hadnít A/B compared them I might not have ever know there would be a difference.

In some ways the M22 + sub combo can actually be better then using towers. Reason is most of the time you canít place a speaker in one place in a room that gives both the best bass response and the best stereo imaging at the same time. Using a separate subwoofer allows you to do this.

Like michael_d and others mentioned above the M22s + are not a replacement for M60s or M80 for all circumstances, but I think itís an ideal compromise for your situation. You will be able to get outstanding sound for both music and movies much sooner than if you had to wait to save the money for towers. And once you buy towers (some like JohnK havenít felt the need) the M22s can become wide, height rear or whatever other new speaker position is needed in the future, or zone B speakers for another room.

Also having M22s now gives you more flexibility in the future as you upgrade your system. I was in the same boat as michael_d in that my screen size was going to be limited by the height of my M80s even after finding a room with a vaulted ceiling. I also considered downsizing to the M60 but eventually realized the slightly smaller screen was still way big enough. Point is that by locking yourself into towers early it could dictate other aspects of your setup. Or necessitate selling speakers to get smaller replacements.

Thereís also nothing that says youíre next upgrade after the M22 + sub cant be a pair of M60s or M80s. Just move the M22 to surround duties until you can pick up a pair of QS8s. So I wouldnít worry about not getting towers right away as by going this route your will get an outstanding sound system early and have an upgrade path the takes advantage of your previous purchases.

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282675 - 12/16/09 03:14 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: grunt
The only noticeable difference I’ve heard with the M22 + sub setup vs the M80 + sub setup is more forceful mid and upper bass with the M80 combo. However, if I hadn’t A/B compared them I might not have ever know there would be a difference.


My thoughts exactly. \:\)
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#282715 - 12/16/09 10:10 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10398
Seek, the M22s plus a good sub(which you'll have) are excellent for music. One step that will get you an even better listening experience is to drop the concept of "strict" or "pure" 2-channel listening. Most of the sound at a concert reaches the listeners as reflected ambience from directions other than the front. This sound has to be mixed into the front channels because there's no place else to put it in 2-channel formats. HT receivers(such as your excellent 606)can apply processing such as DPLII to extract the ambience from the front channels and send it to the surrounds where it belongs, making the home listening experience a bit more realistic. I'd never voluntarily limit myself to listening through only front speakers when surrounds are available.

So, as a temporary measure you can use whatever speakers you have as side surrounds, although they won't precisely match the excellence of the M22s. When your budget permits, you should consider the QSs to further improve your listening. As far as amplification, you already have all you need for optimum sound quality.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#282724 - 12/16/09 11:32 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: JohnK]
jumbo_tron Offline
buff

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 52
Loc: Grand Forks, ND, USA
Seek, I am a recent Axiom customer, and I was in the exact position as you are. I have the M22's, VP150, QS8's and the PB12-NSD in my apartment. I too was worried the M22's would not give me what I wanted and thought about the M60's. All these guys gave me the same input they've given you and boy were they right.

The M22's are excellent, and as Grunt said, paired with the SVS you won't be missing much, if anything! I initially purchased the fronts and center speaker and used them alone for over a month with no complaints. Once I added the SVS it definately filled out the bass. I think you will be absolutely satisfied with this choice. I must add, you better bolt your sh*t down cuz the SVS is gonna kick your @ss in home theater use, and sounds excellent for music in 2.1 channel as is my preference.

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#282725 - 12/17/09 12:11 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jumbo_tron]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
I had narrowed my choice of speakers for my two channel playback system down to Gallo Ref3's or offerings from Zu when I stumbled upon the 6moon's review of the M80. Up until then, I had dismissed Axiom as being some consumer grade HT crap, based solely on their low price. I was stuck in audio snob land, believing that decent speakers start around 3k and only go up from there.

Then I researched all the info that's out there (including this forum!) about the Axiom product line. I decided to test the water with the purchase of the M22's, figuring that if they sucked, no big deal, I can send them back.

I was still skeptical up until I inserted the banana plugs into the speakers.

Tomorrow will mark one week since I've had them, and I can say without reservation that they are simply, astoundingly great!

What initially turned me off about Axiom (the ridiculously low price) has now become a badge of pride. The steal that I got them for makes me love them that much more! \:\)

I will be using all Axiom speakers for my home audio now. And that way, I will be able to afford that $10,000 turntable that I want sooner than later!
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#282726 - 12/17/09 12:12 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jumbo_tron]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Grunt,

What are you currently using your M22s for?

JohnK,

Your regards for the 606 has renewed my confidence in my receiver to handle the task. I will definitely take into consideration 5.1 music listening and try to compare the difference between 2 channel and 2.1. I personally enjoy being immersed in the ambiance a surround system creates.

jumbo_tron,

I am so envious of you! You have the exact same setup I am dying to get. What receiver are you currently running them with? Can you rate your new home theater experience with these speakers? Are you currently satisfied? I am very curious as to how great the M22s will turn out for me.

I wish I could used the money I've saved up so far to buy these now but I know I will have a crazy time back home in Florida for this holiday season.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282727 - 12/17/09 12:20 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: audiosavant]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
audiosavant,

Thanks for sharing how blown away you are with the M22s. It certainly helps seal the deal on the upcoming purchase.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282728 - 12/17/09 12:27 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
I recently bought about 10 new Blu movies and I've just piled them up in a corner unopened and will not be touched until I get the M22s in my hand. I want the experience to be great, and I won't be getting that with my current polks. This gives me greater incentive to try to acquire these speakers asap so I can go back to doing what I love to do and that is watching movies.

I am a perfectionist and it's not healthy, but what can I do. I am really excited about these speakers.

Seeking
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282736 - 12/17/09 02:21 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
jumbo_tron Offline
buff

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 52
Loc: Grand Forks, ND, USA
Seeking, I'm using a low end Denon AVR-1610 with mine and it has been excellent, no problems whatsoever, and has every feature I could possibly need at this point.

I'm am currently absolutely satisfied. As for a rating, I'm really just getting into the home theater thing, but for the price and performance compared to my buddies "big box" and other systems,
I'd have to give it an 11 out of 10!
I have no regrets with my purchase and wouldn't change a thing. Just go for it! Either way, no matter what you get from Axiom you get their excellent customer service, good luck with your purchase.

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#282737 - 12/17/09 02:26 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Presently Iím using my M22s as DSX wide speakers in an 8.2 setup. Prior to that, before I had my projector and screen, I was using a single M22 as a center speaker below my HDTV. Prior to that I was using the M22s as L/R mains in temporary (4 month) setup in my apartment after tearing most of my system down so I could box it up in anticipation of moving.

If I decide to keep using wide speakers I think I may order a pair of M2s to try in that role as I think they M2s would be sufficient as wides based on Fredís comments using them a centers for his M80s. Then I would move the M22s to another room to use on their own.

Also keep in mind that you can always continue to use your Polks as surround or rear speakers until you get some QS8s. Sometimes something is better than nothing. My first surround speakers were detached speakers form a boom box being feed directly off the analogue outs on my Oppo. My sub woofer was a Buttkicker LFE kit.

Something you might consider if you plan on being in a townhouse for some time is that a Buttkicker (or other tactile transducer) will give you the shaking and rumbling of a good subwoofer w/o going through the walls and disturbing your neighbors. Might be worth the investment down the road if you plan on sharing walls with other people for some time. But get a good subwoofer first.

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#282749 - 12/17/09 09:26 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
roar Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 65
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
I recently bought about 10 new Blu movies and I've just piled them up in a corner unopened and will not be touched until I get the M22s in my hand. I want the experience to be great, and I won't be getting that with my current polks. This gives me greater incentive to try to acquire these speakers asap so I can go back to doing what I love to do and that is watching movies.

I am a perfectionist and it's not healthy, but what can I do. I am really excited about these speakers.

Seeking


Make sure you hold off on those movies until you get your sub woofer too or you're just going to watch them all over again!

I bought my M22's several months ago; I have 3 for my L/C/R. I then bought the Oppo Blu Ray player so I could use the analog outs on it and get the HD sound through to my old AVR, all the while waiting on my sub woofer purchase.

Needless to say movie watching has been quite blissful the last several months, but now that I have the budget for a sub woofer, and will be picking one up in the next couple of weeks I've got to go through all those movies again... I know, I'm sure it will be quite painful \:\)

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#282750 - 12/17/09 09:56 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: roar]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
jumbo_tron,

If your receiver is working great for you, mine will probably work great for this setup then. Its nice to hear you are completely satisfied.

I just had the notion that you had to spend big money in order to enjoy great sound, but from your testimony and many others here, a moderate amount spent on axiom speakers goes a long way!

Grunt,

Thanks for the advice on the buttkicker, it sounds like an interesting product. As of right now, I don't foresee my neighbors having any problems when I get the new speakers.

I have been thinking about using my polks for center and surround duties until I can round out my axiom purchases, but my ocd will probably kick in and stay my hand.

Roar,

Haha, I can see that you understand why I want to hold off. My roommate doesn't quite get it but he knows I have a passion for these things and it has to be just right.

I will probably be able to get the M22s and the SVS at the same time. I'll have enough for the sub while I wait for the M22s to be delivered.

Its great being single! Well, for the most part =)

Seeking


Edited by Seekinganswers (12/17/09 09:59 AM)
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282762 - 12/17/09 10:46 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
BWeasner Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 69
Seeking-

Thought I would also chime in to help alleviate any doubts you may have about buying the M22s. My current setup is similar to jumbo_tron's: M22s, VP150, QS4s, and EP350...all being driven by a "low end" Denon AVR-1910. I've had this setup for about 3 months now and can say that I have absolutely no regrets. I spend at least 2 hours every evening after work either listening to CDs or watching movies...and I'm still find things that amaze me every single day.

Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I'm using this setup in a VERY small dedicated home theater room (1000 cubic feet)...so I really can't comment on how these speakers can fill a large room with sound:



Having said that the M22 is an amazing speaker that, when paired with a sub, fulfills all of my wildest dreams in terms of both music and home theater. I'm not a true audiophile by any means, but I knew immediately just how high of quality these speakers are. I have realized that with the M22s, you do not listen to music, you experience it. I was left breathless last night after listening to The Crystal Method's "Divided by Night" in DTS Neo:6 at some crazy volume (my ears were a bit numb \:\) ). Simply amazing.

As far as home theater, all I can say is that I would much, MUCH rather wait for a movie to be released on Blu-Ray and watch it at home than go to the theater. As others have stated on these forums, the HD audio in Blu-Ray sounds simply incredible. Even my wife, who seriously didn't think that she would notice a difference between our old RCA home theater in a box and the new system has said that she is extremely glad that we upgraded. She has become a self-proclaimed audio "snob" who cringes when watching movies with regular TV speakers.

So, without a doubt, BUY THE M22s! It will be some of the best money you have ever spent!

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#282764 - 12/17/09 11:02 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
BWeasner,

Wow, that is a nice little room you have there with awesome speakers.

I've been thinking about it a bit with everyone saying how the M22s paired with a sub sounds pretty close to the M80s. Depending on how I like the M22s, I don't think I will feel the need to upgrade to the M80s anytime soon. But that may be a bit premature.
_________________________
Speakers: Energy RC-70s, RC-LCR, RC-Rs and eD A2-300 x 2.
Receiver: Marantz 6006

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#282765 - 12/17/09 11:07 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Seekinganswers Offline
old hand

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 97
Here is a technical question I've been meaning to ask: as great as the M22s are, why do people still prefer the QS8s as surround speakers. I know they are designed differently, but I don't know all the technicalities of it. I hear people saying how great the QS8s are and I am a little confused. Aren't the surrounds usually used the least amount of time? It is strange to me a pair of QS8s cost more than a pair of M22s.

Seeking
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#282766 - 12/17/09 11:23 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
BWeasner Offline
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Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 69
From what I understand, the QS8s are a more perfect match to the M22s than what the QS4s are (the QS8s have the same drivers as the M22s). This allows the QS8s to play a little deeper, a littler louder, and fill more space with sound than the QS4s.

When I purchased my system, I was ready to purchase the QS8s. But both JC and Brent at Axiom customer service recommended that I buy the QS4s and put the money saved into upgrading the center channel to the VP150. Their advice I believe was absolutely sound...like I said, my room is very small. My head in the prime listening position is only about 5.5 feet from the QS4s. So far I have been extremely pleased with the QS4s...they can play very loud when they need to, and their unique design really creates an immersive surround field. I have often wondered how much better the QS8s would sound (especially considering they are only like $120US more than the QS4s)...but I try not to get hung-up on the "what ifs" and just enjoy the stellar sound.

I think that if you have a larger room or have the few extra dollars burning a hole in your pocket, you should seriously consider buying the QS8s.

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#282777 - 12/17/09 12:10 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need advice [Re: BWeasner]
audiosavant Offline
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I would think that an Axiom expert can answer as to why the QS8's are more expensive than the M22's, but it's probably because of their more sophisticated, omnidirectional design.

But, they do have a reputation of being perhaps the finest surrounds for HT out there for the money.

I plan on using M2's for my surround speakers in my bedroom set-up since the dispersion characteristics of the QS8's won't be needed in that space. Good timbral matching for a "music first" system.

Now for my living room, the QS8 will be perfect, since there will be more space around them to "breath". This will be coupled with another set of M22's, Vp150, subwoofer, \:\) and will be a "movies first" set-up. For critical living room two channel listening, I will use a pair of M80's couple with a sub. I will have a lot of Axiom speakers in the house!

I mix projects in surround, and in the audio/film world, we use all matching speakers (mains, center, surrounds) for critical monitoring and mixing.

If anyone is interested, these are the speakers that I use in my recording studio for surround projects (music/film): http://www.abluesky.com/asp/catalogue/catalogue.asp?linkid=17

They are used by a lot of post production places.

So, that movie you are watching was probably mixed on a system like this. I know that George Lucas has been using them extensively at Skywalker Ranch studios. That's how I heard about them!
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#282780 - 12/17/09 12:23 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need advice [Re: audiosavant]
jakewash Offline
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The QS8s are preffered because in our smallish rooms, compared to real movie theaters, it is hard to get direct radiating speakers to spread the sound out and surround you. The QS series have no drivers aimed at the listening position so the sound is more diffuse/spread out and envelops you, it doesn't hit you like direct radiating speakers do. Some people do not like the diffuse sound of the QS series but most appear to feel the design works, it sounds more like the big surround arrays they have in theaters all the while only using 2 speakers.
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#282783 - 12/17/09 12:44 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
michael_d Offline
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Nice room Brandon. How about some more pics?
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#282786 - 12/17/09 12:53 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
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Another reason the QS8s are more expensive? 1 more driver. And I'm sure the assembly is a bit more complicated.
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#282787 - 12/17/09 12:54 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: michael_d]
tomtuttle Offline
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Registered: 06/20/03
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That is an impossibly cool room.

QS8's have one more tweeter and presumably additional crossover parts; that's at least part of what makes them more expensive.

They are excellent surround speakers, for the reasons already cited.
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#282788 - 12/17/09 12:54 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: tomtuttle]
tomtuttle Offline
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Ken, get back to work.
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#282790 - 12/17/09 01:04 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: tomtuttle]
Ken.C Offline
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No, you!
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#282798 - 12/17/09 01:46 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Ken.C]
BWeasner Offline
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Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 69
michael_d-

Thanks for the nice comment! Please see the following link for an exhaustive look at the construction of my HT room:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=278717&fpart=1

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#282799 - 12/17/09 01:53 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
BWeasner Offline
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Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 69
The QS8s have an additional driver that the QS4s do not? Maybe I'm missing something but the Products page describe both the QS4 and the QS8 as dual tweeter, dual woofer designs...the QS4 has 2 1" tweeters and two 4" woofers while the QS8 has 2 1" tweeters and 2 5.25" woofers. Please, someone fill me in if I'm wrong here.

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#282800 - 12/17/09 01:59 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: tomtuttle]
grunt Offline
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@ Brandon - Great looking room

@ Terry - donít discount QS8s as surround speakers even for music. I know the recommendation is for direct radiating (identical all around if possible) but almost all my multi-channel music SACDs and DVD-As use the surround channels for ambient sounds which the QS8s are better suited to produce. Same goes if you use PLII or PLIIx processing as they are going to pull out the ambient information and route it to the back.

I compared both QS8s and M22s as surround and rear speakers in my apartment (speakers were 5.5í away and I proffered the QS8s for both movies and music. The more diffuse sound from them blends better with their corresponding mains and with each other over a wider listening area. OTOH if I were just sitting in the sweet spot I found the advantages of the QS8s less noticeable especially as back speakers even more so the further away the back speakers were. However, I still canít see using anything but the QS8s for surrounds even for music.

 Originally Posted By: seeking

Here is a technical question I've been meaning to ask: as great as the M22s are, why do people still prefer the QS8s as surround speakers. I know they are designed differently, but I don't know all the technicalities of it. I hear people saying how great the QS8s are and I am a little confused. Aren't the surrounds usually used the least amount of time? It is strange to me a pair of QS8s cost more than a pair of M22s.


Iíve compared M22s and QS8s as surround, back, wide and height speakers so hereís my take for what itís worth.

For movies, as mentioned, the dispersion characteristics of the QS8s better spread out the sound the way an array of surround speakers in a movie theater does. This helps the surround sound stage (sides and rear) to blend more seamlessly between all your speakers. It also helps prevent the side/rear soundstage from collapsing to the nearest speaker for people sitting off to either side.

For music I prefer the QS8s because most of the multi-channel music I have or have seen the surround channels only carry ambient sounds from the venue they were recorded in or mixed to simulate that. I have about 50 multi-channel recordings and I can only think of 2 DSOTM and Quaudiophiliac that mix discrete instruments of vocals into the surround channels. Iím sure there are many more but in my experience the ambient stuff far out weighs the directional.

In terms of usage Iíve noticed the following order of precedence in speakers:

Movies - Center, mains, surrounds, wides, heights, backs.
Music - Mains, (center and surrounds (about even)), wides, backs, heights.

Although in both cases the surrounds play less of a role itís still significant in many recordings because they are often solely responsible for creating the side and back soundstage.

Some might question my putting surrounds on par with the center for music but the more high quality multi-channel music Iím getting the more Iím hearing sound engineers mix most of the center channel into the mains. On the audio demo Blu-ray that came with my Oppo there was almost nothing coming out of the center channel. My understanding is that the sound engineers understand that the mains are likely going to be the best speakers on someone system for music reproduction.

http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/surrounded200307.htm

On thing I have noticed is that for back (not surround) speakers that are about 5í or more away then using the M22s actually have some advantages over the QS8s in my experience do to the more directional nature of sound effects. However, IMO M22s are overkill as back speakers and M2s or M3s would be more cost effective in this role.

Overall my preference for speakers would be

L/C/R = identical tower or bookshelf. Timber matched vertical center if identical not possible. Timber matched horizontal center if vertical not possible.
Surrounds = QS8s or QS4 depending on room size
Wide = M2 or M3 maybe M22 if room is really big and wides are far away.
Height = QS4 maybe QS8s if room is huge
Back = M2 or M3 I skip backs in small rooms when using QS8 surrounds.

Obviously people will have differing opinions on whatís most important.

Cheer,
Dean
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#282805 - 12/17/09 02:08 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
tomtuttle Offline
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Sorry, Brandon, I thought your question was why the QS8's are more costly than M22's.
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#282806 - 12/17/09 02:11 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
audiosavant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: BWeasner
michael_d-

Thanks for the nice comment! Please see the following link for an exhaustive look at the construction of my HT room




Man, your room's transformation was inspiring to see.

Nice work on the acoustic treatments also.

And lighting.

Ahh... and those butt friendly chairs...

Looks like one could spend many hours immersed in quality entertainment... ;\)
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#282807 - 12/17/09 02:11 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: tomtuttle]
Ken.C Offline
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Likewise.
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#282812 - 12/17/09 03:01 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Potatohead Offline
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Seeking,

I realize I am late to this party and you are obviously getting some great help.

I also have the PB12-NSD paired with 22's (the W series however). I was extremely worried as well that a bookshelf was not going to give me what I wanted, as they were being put into a dedicated theater. My room is about 1750 cubic feet, which Axiom stated would be no problem for the 22's to fill.

Well, they weren't kidding. Movies are just amazing. I am using a 5.1 setup with a W150 and QS8's. During the action scenes which get very loud, they hang in there and envelope the entire room with sound without issue. As most of the guys here can attest, I am a perfectionist and am always concered something may not be 100% what it can be. Who wants to spend $2500 and not be satisfied, right? I did have some issues with sub placement, but that was sorted out and now the NSD works with the M22's very well.

I do believe the M60 may be a better choice for two channel, or if your room is more than about 2400 cubic feet. At least I would try the 22's, and if they don't quite do it for you, exchange them for the M60's.

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#282813 - 12/17/09 03:02 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
Potatohead Offline
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 Originally Posted By: BWeasner
The QS8s have an additional driver that the QS4s do not? Maybe I'm missing something but the Products page describe both the QS4 and the QS8 as dual tweeter, dual woofer designs...the QS4 has 2 1" tweeters and two 4" woofers while the QS8 has 2 1" tweeters and 2 5.25" woofers. Please, someone fill me in if I'm wrong here.


They are the same concept, but the QS4 uses a smaller woofer and therefore is a smaller speaker, as you noticed.

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#282814 - 12/17/09 03:04 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: grunt]
audiosavant Offline
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 Originally Posted By: grunt


@ Terry - donít discount QS8s as surround speakers even for music.




Oh, I don't! I'm planning on using M2's for my bedroom surrounds since, I believe, that the QS8s would create too much dispersion in that smaller space. I'm currently using Tannoy PBM 6.5's for my surrounds in that space and they work really well. I think they are probably comparable to an M3 as far as the sound goes. The M2's would make an ideal match for rears in this set-up.

Now, my living room is much better suited for the QS8s.

You are correct about SACD/DVD-A multi channel music.

As the dust is starting to settle on multichannel music mixing for the end user, it looks like music will always be the ugly stepchild of HT. Most people are not willing or capable of setting up 5 matching full range speakers (the initial ideal) for music listening. But many people do have HT set-ups (and if they are smart, Axioms, but I digress... \:\) ...) so, we as engineers/producers, are trying to account for the typical HT system, knowing that it will probably be smallish speakers with a subwoofer/center channel (but hopefully full range mains), in a 5.1 configuration.

I mean, you should hear the debates/arguments for/against using the LFE in music mixing. Or how/when to use bass management. So many variables to consider! Most people have crap playback anyway, surround audio makes it that much harder to mix for a real world scenario.

So, HT is the only thing that is keeping multichannel high definition audio alive!

And I loves me some multichannel music...

BTW: Quaudiophiliac is very cool, but way too short! I was a kid, but I remember when the first Quad vinyl formats were happening. My how far we've come! Wish Frank were still alive, he would be all over this current technology, and years ahead of it...
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#282816 - 12/17/09 03:13 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: audiosavant]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
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 Originally Posted By: audiosavant

I mean, you should hear the debates/arguments for/against using the LFE in music mixing. Or how/when to use bass management. So many variables to consider! Most people have crap playback anyway, surround audio makes it that much harder to mix for a real world scenario.


Must be an interesting time to be working the the field.

 Quote:

So, HT is the only thing that is keeping multichannel high definition audio alive!

I hadnít thought about it that way. I hope Blu-ray breaths new life into multi-channel music. Thereís just so much cool stuff they could do with it.

 Quote:

BTW: Quaudiophiliac is very cool, but way too short! I was a kid, but I remember when the first Quad vinyl formats were happening. My how far we've come! Wish Frank were still alive, he would be all over this current technology, and years ahead of it...


I agree, years ahead!
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#282828 - 12/17/09 05:15 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: audiosavant]
jakewash Offline
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 Originally Posted By: audiosavant

Oh, I don't! I'm planning on using M2's for my bedroom surrounds since, I believe, that the QS8s would create too much dispersion in that smaller space.
I think for smaller spaces I would go with the QS4s, Which is my plan for my bedroom. They do not seem to throw the sound around as much as the QS8's, inspite of the same design. The drivers just do not move as much air thus slightly less dispersion.
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#282842 - 12/17/09 06:45 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jakewash]
Micah Offline
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Registered: 11/16/08
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I'm sorry to have kept you waiting Seeking... no my sub situation as of right now is still in limbo. I will surely update the congregation here when something has been established.

The great thing about owning the M80's is, with music you'll barely miss a sub, if you do at all. I'm not sure what you're tastes im music are, I listen to everything from Neil Diamond and Elton John to The Crystal Method and Marylin Manson. I was just listening to 'Any Given Sunday' by Moby on 95% full blast... SPIN CHILLING!!!!
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#282843 - 12/17/09 06:51 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Micah Offline
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The thing I LOVE about Industrial music is they play a full range speaker to it's extremes. They throw in bass, midbass, upper range, and they use left/right effects to the max. To me, finding out if a speaker is the real poop required two kinds of test music, Industial and classical.

If a speaker can tackle both of these genre without breaking a sweat, then you know you have a winner on your hands. And the M80's play both with authority.
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#282845 - 12/17/09 07:01 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Adrian Offline
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"Industrial Music"?


Pardon-ez-moi for my ig-na-ance, I've never heard this expression before. Is it played on heat exchanger or sumthin'.
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#282849 - 12/17/09 07:28 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Adrian]
Ken.C Offline
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Nine Inch Nails would probably be a more popular (less pure?) example of the genre.
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#282850 - 12/17/09 07:32 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Adrian]
Micah Offline
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Close.

The Crystal Method, Prodigy, Psycic TV, Moby, Rob Zombie, Ministry... These are some Industrial artists. Also known as 'Techno'.
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#282851 - 12/17/09 07:34 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Ken.C]
audiosavant Offline
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Or better yet, Canada's very own Skinny Puppy.

And their offshoot project Download is quite amazing sonically.

Anyone heard Squarepusher? Check out his album 'Go Plastc' for the ultimate audio test cd... from HELL!

Seriously, you'll be astonished at what frequencies your speakers can reproduce playing that disc.
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#282852 - 12/17/09 07:36 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Micah Offline
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Well, maybe not exactly 'Techno', but sort of a techno approach to metal. Make sense?
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#282853 - 12/17/09 07:39 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Micah Offline
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Haha, Skinny Puppy! I shoulda know to include them in a Canadian based forum! \:\)
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#282854 - 12/17/09 07:43 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
Ken.C Offline
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C'mon, if Rob Zombie is industrial, NIN definitely is.
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#282855 - 12/17/09 07:47 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Ken.C]
Micah Offline
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Nine Inch Nails would probably be a more popular (less pure?) example of the genre.


Well I figured most have at least heard of Manson and Rob Zombie. But oh I would defiately throw NIN into the Industrial genre. Trent Reznor was one of the Industrial pioneers, as well as one of its most successful.


Edited by Micah (12/17/09 07:58 PM)
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#282856 - 12/17/09 07:55 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
audiosavant Offline
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Test Dept. and Throbbing Gristle are two of the early ones.

In act, I think Throbbing Gristle coined the term 'industrial'.

And I now have the honor of being the first person on this forum to mention Throbbing Gristle.
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#282859 - 12/17/09 08:07 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: audiosavant]
Micah Offline
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 Originally Posted By: audiosavant

And I now have the honor of being the first person on this forum to mention Throbbing Gristle.


Proof that most people don't mind what it is they're known for, so long as they're first! ;\)

Some early influences that I would personally credit the 'Industrial' movement to would be Sigue Sigue Sputnik, who are classified as 'Punk', but definately have heavy Industrial remnants in their music. As well as 'Pet Shop Boys', who are way more 'Pop' and not metal, but still kind of ushered in that style of recording in my opinion.
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#282863 - 12/17/09 09:00 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
Listener Offline
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 Originally Posted By: BWeasner





Awesome room. How large is it? How did you construct the bass traps?
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#282870 - 12/17/09 09:17 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Potatohead]
Seekinganswers Offline
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Potatohead,

It's better to join the party late than never. Could you tell me what what type of receiver you are running?

Micah,

It's been a hot minute since you've ran with a sub woofer. Have you considered another brand to complete your system? I remember you had favorable things to say about the JL sub that your friend had.

Seeking
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#282875 - 12/17/09 09:50 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Micah Offline
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I've considered quite a few options. I'm currently waiting on my slow season (February/March) to get here to build an infinite baffle system perhaps. That's my first choice.
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#282885 - 12/18/09 12:44 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
jumbo_tron Offline
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Posts: 52
Loc: Grand Forks, ND, USA
Hey Micah, listen to any Fear Factory by any chance? If not and you're into industrial metal you need to check them out. My favorite albums of theirs are Digimortal, Archetype, and Demanufacture. I'd have to say definately check out Archetype first. It features an excellent tune, Bite The Hand That Bleeds, which was on one of the Saw movie soundtracks. Great stuff!

Also BWeasner I was keeping up with home theater thread and I must tell you that turned out amazing. The wall color, which is awesome, combined with your acoustic panels looks very professional. I may be stealing your design as soon as I get a permanent place. ;\)

Sorry Seeking, not trying to threadjack.

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#282893 - 12/18/09 03:42 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jumbo_tron]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
Hmmmm... I do remember hearing some 'Fear Factory' back in the early 90's, seemed more like Death Metal than Industrial. Or did they mutate towards Industrial, because they certainly had Industrial influences driving their sound.
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#282900 - 12/18/09 08:46 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Micah]
jumbo_tron Offline
buff

Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 52
Loc: Grand Forks, ND, USA
Yes, you are exactly right Micah. Back then they were more death metal. They moved pretty far away from that with later albums becoming much more as I would say, "accessible", but still having that industrial touch.

Oops, I read back and I see you were talking more industrial, rather than industrial metal. My mistake. Oh well still worth a listen.


Edited by jumbo_tron (12/18/09 08:49 AM)

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#282903 - 12/18/09 09:30 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: jumbo_tron]
BWeasner Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 69
Listener-

The room is 11ft wide by 13ft deep with 7ft ceilings. Those aren't really bass traps, just regular acoustic panels...they don't contain nearly enough fiberglass board to stop low freq waves \:\) There are VERY few soft surfaces in the room, so I went with regular acoustic panels just to stop some of the mid- and high-freq echoes at the first and second reflection points. Please see the link I posted earlier in this thread to my home theater construction post...it shows pictures of how I made the acoustic panels. I'll be happy to PM you more detailed instructions, if you would like...just let me know.

jumbo-tron:

Thanks for the compliment, and by all means, please steal my design and improve on it! Looking back, there are so many things I would do differently now. Unfortunately, a very large portion of the room was alread finished when I decided to make it a dedicated home theater. If only I would have had unframed walls when I started the HT project...I would have hidden all the speaker wires in the walls, wall-mounted the TV, put the components in a separate room and installed an IR repeater system. Live and learn, I guess...

To all-

Glad to hear that there are others on these forums listening to industrial/metal...it does not seem as though I have run across many thread discussing this genre of music. I have to say that I listened to the "White Zombie, Greatest Hits: Past, Present, and Future" last night and was amazed at how well that CD is mixed and how great it sounded in DTS Neo:6. Amazing stuff!

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#282907 - 12/18/09 10:07 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Just wondering. You prefer DTS Neo:6 to Dolby Prologic IIx? I've tried both, and my preference for Dolby's processing is so much greater, than I even apply it to DTS 5.1 films to create the rear channels. Although, in that situation creating the rear from the existing surrounds they are very much the same. It's the upmixing of stereo to 7.1 with IIx Music which really shines in my opinion.
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#282912 - 12/18/09 10:30 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: ClubNeon]
BWeasner Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 69
ClubNeon-

I actually listen to music using both decoding methods. I have found some CDs sound much better in one or the other, while other CDs sound pretty much the same through both.

From my limited experience so far (let me stress the "limited"), I have found the the Dolby ProLogic II creates a MUCH more enveloping surround field than what DTS Neo:6 creates. However, sometimes I feel that this diffuse soundfield gives a bloated and somewhat less accurate feeling to the music. I've also found that Dolby ProLogicII will oftentimes place instruments in the virtual surround field when I don't think they should be there.

For example, "The Best of the Chieftains" CD has, for the most part, all of the instruments and musicians placed correctly in front of the listener. However, there are a few times when an instrument will join the song from the rear soundfield, which to me just sounds strange. It is not an ambient reflection, but almost like another musician decided to pick up and start playing away from the main group. This problem disappears when I switch the decoding to DTS Neo:6.

However, "KT Tunstall's: Eye to the Telescope" sounds flat and lifeless in DTS Neo:6. For that CD, the sound is much richer and more enveloping in Dolby ProLogicII. So I guess it all depends on the CD...or maybe it is my receiver???

For 2-channel movies (Netflix Roku box), I exclusively use Dolby ProLogicII cinema...sounds so much better than DTS!

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#282922 - 12/18/09 11:24 AM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I think that's what I liked so much about the PLIIx, the really enveloping sense it brings. Most of the music I listen to doesn't have an actual sound field. With the "instruments" being positioned with a pan pot, and reverb being created by an effects filter. So there's no illusion of space to recreate.
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Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#282947 - 12/18/09 01:27 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: ClubNeon]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: BWeasner

However, "KT Tunstall's: Eye to the Telescope" sounds flat and lifeless in DTS Neo:6. For that CD, the sound is much richer and more enveloping in Dolby ProLogicII. So I guess it all depends on the CD...or maybe it is my receiver???

You might be right. On my old Denon 2807 I universally preferred PLII and PLIIx, however now on my Onkyo 3007 itís pretty much a coin toss whether PLIIÖ or Neo:6 sounds better. So far I havenít noticed any correlation between what sounds best in any given mode.
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#282959 - 12/18/09 02:03 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: Seekinganswers]
Potatohead Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 670
Loc: Vancouver
 Originally Posted By: Seekinganswers
Potatohead,

It's better to join the party late than never. Could you tell me what what type of receiver you are running?

Seeking


Denon 2310

Your 606 won't have any issues with either the 22's or the M60 IMO. It's a good mid level receiver. M80's may be another story, but really only if you really drive them hard for an extended period. It also decodes the new audio formats which is nice as well. I see no reason to upgrade it at all.





Edited by Potatohead (12/18/09 02:11 PM)

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#282962 - 12/18/09 02:23 PM Re: Set on Axiom speakers, need avice [Re: BWeasner]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: BWeasner
Looking back, there are so many things I would do differently now. Unfortunately, a very large portion of the room was alread finished when I decided to make it a dedicated home theater. If only I would have had unframed walls when I started the HT project...I would have hidden all the speaker wires in the walls, wall-mounted the TV, put the components in a separate room and installed an IR repeater system. Live and learn, I guess...


It's never too late to hang a tv on the wall. Or hide the wires in the walls/ceiling. Well, if you're room is located in the basement, then hiding the wires might be too big of a headache to be worth it. Still, it can be done if you're a perfectionist who'll be forever torchered knowing they're not invisible. If you have an accessable ceiling then a 1/2 inch drill and a fish tape will do the job nicely.

 Originally Posted By: BWeasner
Glad to hear that there are others on these forums listening to industrial/metal...it does not seem as though I have run across many thread discussing this genre of music. I have to say that I listened to the "White Zombie, Greatest Hits: Past, Present, and Future" last night and was amazed at how well that CD is mixed and how great it sounded in DTS Neo:6. Amazing stuff!


I too am surprised and glad to hear others are up on Industial. Zombie, Manson, The Crystal Method and Prodigy are some of my modern favorites. But I grew up in the late 80's and 90's with the car stereo scene exploding. And for me, I was just so blown away by the way groups like Sputnik, Skinny Puppy, Ministry, NIN and others used mixing techniques to throw their sound effects all around the inside of my car. It was like surround sound before surround sound really became popular. Those guys pushed the envelope of sonic recording.

I know a lot of people dismiss it as rubbish, but I've always respected and enjoyed it.
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QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
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