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#284533 - 12/30/09 07:02 PM From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan
TroyD Offline
local

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 295
"I am concerned about the possible phase/comb filtering interference with those paired drivers next to each other in the M80 and VP-150 Axioms

Read more: Paradigm Studio/Monitor VS Axiom Audio - Home Theater Systems - Electronics and Forum - HomeTheaterShack http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/h...l#ixzz0bDhIgQWU
_________________________
HK 3490
M80 HG Cherry
2x Energy ESW10 Subs

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#284542 - 12/30/09 08:56 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: TroyD]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Alan has stated many times comb filtering is a measureable by-product but has little to do with actual listening experiences.

I for one have not had any issues with my VP150, M80s nor the VP100. Yes the Vp series does drop of by a db or 2 off axis as does any other horizontal design speaker.

Where is that Center channel speaker choice article on Audioholics.........
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

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#284547 - 12/30/09 09:00 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: jakewash]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
No problems here.
_________________________
-David

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#284555 - 12/30/09 09:58 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: terzaghi]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
In case they don’t see this thread for awhile I'll quote what Alan said the last time this came up:

Sibilance

 Originally Posted By: alan

SolidState,

I found your quote from Winston Churchill quite apropos. The question is; are you going to begin to accept the truth or are you going to hurry off? The comb filtering you are talking about is in fact a measurement artifact that at worst is not audible and at best is something two ears and a brain quite like. You could start to enlighten yourself by reading "Comb Filtering -- Popular Misconceptions" in our May '09 Axiom AudioFile newsletter:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/archives/may2009.html#feature

If you find comb filtering to be a problem, why are you listening in stereo or multi-channel? You would need to listen to everything in mono to avoid this artifact. To put an even finer point on it; even if you could hear this artifact it would manifest itself in a cancellation of higher frequencies; less high frequency information would not equal more sibilance. Comb filtering measured with a microphone never adds information.

At Axiom we do not produce new models for the sake of having something new. We prefer to continuously improve the models we have, which produces much better results for our customers’ listening experiences. Besides the plethora of improvements we have made to our various models over the past decade we have also introduced the EP500, EP600, EP400, EP800, A1400, Audiobytes, the entire W series, the entire T series, and more. Just another truth for you to either accept or hurry off about.

To sum up: Comb filtering is a measurement artifact of stereo listening. It's always occurring, and our brain and ears ignore the combing effects that are easily measured by a microphone. A brain and two ears are not a microphone. Our research at Axiom and that of many world authorities show that comb filtering is not detrimental to accurate loudspeaker sound reproduction; at worst, it’s irrelevant, at best it actually adds a pleasurable element of spaciousness to stereo and surround sound.

Alan Lofft


The time before:

combing effects of dual center channels

 Originally Posted By: alan

Hi kuro,

While combing effects are easily heard using a pink-noise test signal (and are measureable), they are not significant or audible with music or soundtrack playback.

Moreoever, any speaker or two speakers produce comb-filtering effects. Try it with one speaker and pink noise. As you move your head slightly to one side or the other--only a few inches are necessary-- the arrival times of sounds to each of your ears change as your head changes position and the distance from the speaker driver to each ear changes, resulting in audible comb-filtering effects. You'll hear the high-frequency content alternately increase and decrease because of cancellation and reinforcement.

The notion of time-coherency when put to the test under controlled listening conditions is a lot of high-end blather not based on scientifically controlled listening tests.

It simply doesn't matter with music or soundtrack playback. If we were all ultra-sensitive to combing effects with musical playback from loudspeakers, we'd all be complaining. It would be intolerable.

Regards,


I think the best comment in this whole discussion is from the thread you linked:

 Originally Posted By: Jungle Jack

Either way, you cannot lose if choosing between Paradigm and Axiom. They are both excellent companies which make well engineered speakers.
Cheers,
JJ

_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#284565 - 12/30/09 11:14 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: grunt]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
Not a problem for me either. It is always interesting how people have opinions and concerns like this, but have never listened to Axioms. These comments normally come from someone who has never been involved in speaker engineering, let alone 30 years like Axiom.

I would say stop being concerned about all these things your reading and make your own opinions from what your brain/ears experience.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#284711 - 12/31/09 05:38 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: jakewash]
TroyD Offline
local

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 295
Sorry all, I forgot this was the technical forum . I will never post a question like this again.
I am on a few websites trying to gather info so I can make a good selection, given that i plan on spending 5 -6k on a speaker system. Given that the only speakers I can hear are Paradigm and Energy, although I have owned Axiom in the past and am just trying to figure out if there maybe something " better" for that money. But, oh hell no, nothing compares to Axiom in the world and don't try to ask a question or you will get jumped on and pounded if you may think otherwise.

It was in an article I stumbled opon and given that I am NOt, get that NOT a engineer sound or electroni wise, I wanted to post it to see if infact Alan saw this. ALso, his little reply above was not on the post at that site, so was giving a heads up.... I will never do that again. figured they removed it so no one can see the reply.

To future readers ,no need to reply I understand just to reasearch a little longer and not ask stupid questions. Maybe I will go take some university course on sound engineering and electronics like most of you have here.


Edited by troyd (12/31/09 05:41 PM)
_________________________
HK 3490
M80 HG Cherry
2x Energy ESW10 Subs

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#284712 - 12/31/09 06:08 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: TroyD]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10878
Loc: Central NH
Troyd, I think you misunderstood something here. No one jumped on you. Sirquack above was stating about how many other people post in other forums that Axioms do, in fact, have combing problems though they've never heard Axioms before.

(I assume that you're miffed about Sirquack's post, because the only other postings were to post what Alan has said in the past or to note that those individuals have not noticed it to be a problem.

And, though I didn't get into this earlier, SolidState has got an axe to grind..... At this point, I wouldn't put stock in ANY thing he posts on any subject....


Edited by MarkSJohnson (12/31/09 06:13 PM)
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#284713 - 12/31/09 06:17 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: TroyD]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Troy, Axiom, PSB, Energy and Paradigm have similar philosophies when they design their speakers, that is to say, they all strive to build speakers that are uncoloured at a reasonable price point. You might also add the British speaker company, Monitor Audio (Silver series) to that list as well, to my ear they are somewhat similar to the afformentioned co's at similar coin.

I auditioned all of these speakers plus a few others, but ended up on Axiom's site asking lots of questions, then ordering up a pair of M80s, VP150 and a pair of QS8s which I'm very happy with especially taking into account the price I paid. By all means, listen to as many speakers as you feel necessary and comfortable with before making a decision esp involving the size of investment you are talking about.

There's no such thing as a stupid question, BTW. I've done my share myself, and thankfully there are in fact, a large number of intelligent people on this forum including some engineers to answer them or give advice, but for the most part, it's just a bunch of guys who enjoy the hobby.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#284716 - 12/31/09 06:40 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: TroyD]
SRoode Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 1200
Loc: Fishers, Indiana, USA
 Originally Posted By: troyd
Sorry all, I forgot this was the technical forum . I will never post a question like this again.
I am on a few websites trying to gather info so I can make a good selection, given that i plan on spending 5 -6k on a speaker system. Given that the only speakers I can hear are Paradigm and Energy, although I have owned Axiom in the past and am just trying to figure out if there maybe something " better" for that money. But, oh hell no, nothing compares to Axiom in the world and don't try to ask a question or you will get jumped on and pounded if you may think otherwise.

It was in an article I stumbled opon and given that I am NOt, get that NOT a engineer sound or electroni wise, I wanted to post it to see if infact Alan saw this. ALso, his little reply above was not on the post at that site, so was giving a heads up.... I will never do that again. figured they removed it so no one can see the reply.

To future readers ,no need to reply I understand just to reasearch a little longer and not ask stupid questions. Maybe I will go take some university course on sound engineering and electronics like most of you have here.


Well, first, you never asked a question. You linked a thread from another site and never asked a question at all. Second, you made this post on a site that just about everyone who posts on, owns the speakers under criticism. It's the official site of the speakers under criticism. So... What do you expect?

All I can say is it costs you nothing more than shipping to try them. If you don't like them (or love them) send them right back. Happy New Year.
_________________________
2 M80s, 1 VP180, 4 QS8s, 2 EP800s, 4 Algonquins, 2 M3 VaSSallos

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#284720 - 12/31/09 07:02 PM Re: From HT Shack a question maybe for Ian or Alan [Re: TroyD]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: troyd
Sorry all, I forgot this was the technical forum . I will never post a question like this again.
I am on a few websites trying to gather info so I can make a good selection, given that i plan on spending 5 -6k on a speaker system. Given that the only speakers I can hear are Paradigm and Energy, although I have owned Axiom in the past and am just trying to figure out if there maybe something " better" for that money. But, oh hell no, nothing compares to Axiom in the world and don't try to ask a question or you will get jumped on and pounded if you may think otherwise.

It was in an article I stumbled opon and given that I am NOt, get that NOT a engineer sound or electroni wise, I wanted to post it to see if infact Alan saw this. ALso, his little reply above was not on the post at that site, so was giving a heads up.... I will never do that again. figured they removed it so no one can see the reply.

To future readers ,no need to reply I understand just to reasearch a little longer and not ask stupid questions. Maybe I will go take some university course on sound engineering and electronics like most of you have here.


Your welcome troyd. I appreciate the kind words for the time I took to look up the answer to your question so you wouldn‘t have to wait for Alan or Ian to see it especially considering the Holiday weekend.

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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