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#285697 - 01/07/10 08:58 AM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: SirQuack]
Murph Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6730
Loc: PEI, Canada
I tend into the fall further into the 'well designed digital amps played within their clear power limits sound the same' camp. This is based solely on a lot of written research I have done. The arguments for equality always seem to provide scientific notation and controlled test results while the arguments against always seem to be based on opinions made without a proper test environment. That being said, I'm always willing to keep a very hesitant but slightly open mind and I would love to participate in such a test.

However, I did want to mention that certainly I do believe you when you say you can hear differences between tube amps and digital amps. Obviously this is not an apples to oranges comparison. My newly learned knowledge and even newer experiences say that tubes, by nature, add a mild level of distortion that is often considered pleasurable to many ears.

Also, it is my understanding and my listening experience that swapping various types of tubes can produce slightly different effects on this distortion thus changing the sound or more descriptively, "the warmth" that tube owners have come to love over the years.

I think I've become a bit of a purist in that I want to believe that what I am hearing is absolutely as close to the original, real life sound. At least as much as is possible within my financial limits and the within limits of my sensibilities (law of diminishing returns.)
However,
after spending a fun evening with a gentleman with a gorgeous open tube amp setup where it was very easy to change tubes (and he had a lot), I have to say that someday when I have cash to spare, I'd like to invest in a nice tube amp for a change of pace now and then. Especially one with big, in your face, VU meters!!! \:\)
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#285700 - 01/07/10 09:47 AM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: SirQuack]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I remember reading a similar test, which was purposefully done sighted. There was a switch box, designed to have the most seamless, inaudible switching between two different components (don't recall if it was amps, pre-amps, transports, or what ever). There was some pieces of music playing continuously, and the testers could request the the switch be flipped at any time to change between pieces of gear.

After a few flips, the listeners began to agree that component B definitely was an improvement over A. All the usual adjectives were thrown out, sweeter, more spacious, increased depth, chocolaty, etc. So it was obvious that there was some difference between these two units.

Then the reveal was made. The reason the switch box could perform so inaudibly, is that the second component's wires didn't go anywhere, the switch was connected to nothing, and the first component's wires just looped back out of the box. So the differences they were hearing were completely in their mind.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#285800 - 01/07/10 01:50 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: Murph]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
 Originally Posted By: Murph
I think I've become a bit of a purist in that I want to believe that what I am hearing is absolutely as close to the original, real life sound.


That's the exact reason that I want M80's paired with a high quality amplifier (and possibly EP800 or other sub) for "pure" two channel playback of cd's/lp's and a separate, dedicated Axiom/Onkyo 5.1 set-up for movies, dvd audio etc., both systems being in my "living room".

As much as I love listening to cd's and records through ProLogicII on my Onkyo HT amp, it's an effect (albeit, a trippy and very cool one) that is sometimes a little gimmicky for stuff recorded in stereo. And it gives a fake sense of depth instead of the true stereo picture that was intended by artist/producer.

When I listen to music through the Onkyo in it's 2.1 stereo mode, it sounds pretty flat and cheap.

Hence the need/desire for a dedicated two channel "purist" amplifier for 2.0 or 2.1 playback.

 Originally Posted By: Murph
However, after spending a fun evening with a gentleman with a gorgeous open tube amp setup where it was very easy to change tubes (and he had a lot),


Tube amps (and tube recording gear) rule! I'm assuming he had an amp that does auto biasing? Tube "rolling" is fun and revealing.

 Originally Posted By: Murph
I have to say that someday when I have cash to spare, I'd like to invest in a nice tube amp for a change of pace now and then. Especially one with big, in your face, VU meters!!! \:\)


Amen!
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#285815 - 01/07/10 02:05 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: ClubNeon]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
I remember reading a similar test...
Then the reveal was made. The reason the switch box could perform so inaudibly, is that the second component's wires didn't go anywhere, the switch was connected to nothing, and the first component's wires just looped back out of the box. So the differences they were hearing were completely in their mind.


Lmao! Yeah, I've done that with clients/artist that were getting in the way of mixing/tracking/mastering with requests that were not needed/wanted.

Client/artist: "Hey man, can you give a little bit more (insert whatever term) on that?"

Me reaching and turning knob on something that does absolutely nothing (engineers sometimes call this the "better button"): "How's that?"

Client: "That's it, right there!"

Done and done, now I can get back to work. But in their mind, I did "something" that "improved" what they are hearing.

So I am sure, so called "experts" can be fooled sometimes. That includes even me probably... \:\)

But still, good gear is better than not good gear. That does not mean, however, that it has to be expensive, just of good/great quality.

Like Axiom speakers!
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#285820 - 01/07/10 02:12 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: audiosavant]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11136
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I think it's going to be hard to hear exactly what was intended unless you're listening to the setup it was actually mixed on.
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#285822 - 01/07/10 02:12 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: audiosavant]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: audiosavant
But still, good gear is better than not good gear. That does not mean, however, that it has to be expensive, just of good/great quality.
I think that was the point everyone was trying to get across with the $4800 amp you want to buy. Are you sure there isn't a cheaper option that sounds as good, like maybe Axiom's A1400-2, half the price \:\)

Although the VU meters and some of the other tweakable settings on the Luxman are unique and possibly worth the cost, at least to to some one like you that is in the biz \:\)
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Jason
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#285823 - 01/07/10 02:14 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: Wid]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
 Originally Posted By: wid
To be honest if the Luxman wasn't a gift there is no way I could in good conscious recommend this set up for the simple fact I don't hear a huge difference.


I have to give you the credit/blame wid. It was your post (I think) about getting the Luxman piece that made me re-investigate Luxman in the first place. So... Thanks!

I had my choices down to either a PrimaLuna tube integrated or a used, but refurbished McIntosh (something I've wanted since I was a punk kid) but reading about your gifted Luxman sent me in that direction. Even though $4800.00 is a bit pricey, the Luxman is well worth it. And probably the last stereo amplifier any reasonable person would ever need.
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#285828 - 01/07/10 02:19 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: jakewash]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I'd think that a pair of M80s, with a A1400-2, plus a pre/pro with individual L/R sub outs, and a pair of EP800s, would be the way to go.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#285831 - 01/07/10 02:23 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: audiosavant]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: audiosavant
And probably the last stereo amplifier any reasonable person would ever need.

But 20 Watts? Watts are a measure of power, it takes power to move the speaker cone and compress air. There's no such thing as a "strong" 20 Watts. 20 is 20. Maybe I'm unreasonable, but if a speaker can handle 400 Watts, I want close to 400 Watts.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#285832 - 01/07/10 02:24 PM Re: The perfect power source for M80's!!! [Re: audiosavant]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: audiosavant
And probably the last stereo amplifier any reasonable person would ever need.
<<Inigo>>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means <</Inigo>>:)

$4800 ;\)
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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