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#292198 - 02/14/10 03:04 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Sorry about the shutting down part I miss-read one of GS951’s comments as yours. OTOH, the issue of QC is still valid in that his XPA-2 is shutting down and yours isn’t with the same speakers, something is causing the 2 amps to behave differently. Any idea if you guys are using the same gauge wire?

Also, this isn’t the only case of the same Emo amp performing differently with the M80s. In many if not most cases they work fine but then occasionally they don’t and Emo says it’s the fault of the speaker.

In your case the mids and highs from the XPA-2 still should not be “harsh/a little strained sounding” playing your M80s full range at 100 dB. How high did you have to pump them up to start hearing this to where applying bass management made such a difference (more bass not withstanding)?

Also I agree with wid that the M80s drivers are not likely bottoming out.

AFAIK no other amp/receiver manufacture’s equipment is doing this. It’s just my opinion but I’m guessing that Emo is pushing the limit on the parts specked for some designs to keep costs down. Get an occasional out of spec part or outright counterfeit in a system already being pushed to the limit and you get problems. I’d love to see someone test all the parts of two Emo amps, one that has issues and another that doesn’t, and see how all the components compare.
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#292201 - 02/14/10 03:39 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
My amp has a modified protection circuit that is not as aggressive as a stock XPA-2. I mentioned it in another thread, but not here.

I know others have had issues with the XPA-2 and other amps with the M80s. Its a shame because when they work together the results IMO are hard to beat for the money.

I think some of the harshness I perceived without the sub may be due to having less bass to balance the highs. Not to mention the amp is spending a lot more energy on bass then it is with the crossover in place.

I didnt mean to say that the woofers are hitting a point where they are reaching their mechanical limitation. they are moving to a point where I wonder how much farther I want to push them. The sound of the woofers is somewhat less clean to me at this point.

It does sound like their are other differences in our two amps beside the protection circuit. I am using 14ga in wall speaker wire purchased from Lowes.

I also have had the opportunity of trying an older pair of M80s that my friend bought used. My amps had no issue driving them either. I will say an M80 laying on its side makes an interesting center channel. I hope they do decide to sell a horizontal version of the M80.

Dan & Lonnie from emotiva saw/heard my M80s at a St. Louis GTG. There they were being driven by a pair of XPA-1's which I would love to have.
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292203 - 02/14/10 03:51 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Interesting stuff. Is the modified protection circuit Emo or after market? Did you get a chance to A/B compare the XPA-2 and XPA-1s driving the M80s?

Also, I what to be sure no one thinks I’m slamming Emo I just don’t like reading things in other forums where people are still talking about M80s being “hard to drive” when they’ve never even used them. AFAIK that’s based on some older low end receivers not playing nice with the M80s but the “Meme” is still hanging around.

Some day I ‘might try out more powerful amps but I can already play loud enough w/o hearing distortion to damage my hearing and that my neighbors could call the cops on me so there are other priorities right now.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#292222 - 02/14/10 04:55 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
OK. I changed my crossover to 60 and 80 hz and did not re-cal audyssey. This was done in Pure/Direct mode with Audyssey EQ turn ON (Sound a whole lot better than EQ OFFT). It's like night and day. With Crossover at 80hz I was able to push into 3 db high than crossed at 40hz. This time playing at the same clipped volume level(-16 db on my Denon)...and SPL level ~103-108. Good news, NO Shutdown, Just some frequency I can hear distortion from the woofers. Here are my My room configuration is 3200 cubic feet and what I have and did with the SPL meter I think I am bottom out M80s woofers? I think I did set up the SPL meter correct. Place my SPL meter on Tripod at the center of my listen couch,the height at 42inches, point up to the ceiling position, setted at slow response, C weighting, and my cables are from EMOTIVA Ultra Series (12 gauge). Also, on the XPA 2 LED meter I can see 8-10 lighted up and good new no red LED light this time.
Thanks for all your help. I just want the best sound I can hear from my M80 with an affordable price on EMO amp. I have two days to make my decision on EMO XPA 2 before I return for refund and move on. Tell me guys what do I have here or my problem is. I hear distortion from my M80 woofers NO CLIPPING this time with 60 and 80 hz crossed. You think I bottom out my speakers. I don't listen to this loud just there times I do want to demo for 1 or 2 songs to show off my equipment. I thank you for all your supports. AXIOM speakers are the BEST!
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292256 - 02/14/10 09:17 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
I am not sure why you are still getting the distortion. I have not had any real distorting of my woofers where they sound mechanically overdriven like a crackle. It could be that the woofers were damaged from diving the XPA-2 into clipping. The XPA-2 could have an issue. I am not sure the protection circuit would cause that. Maybe the Denon preamp is being driven too hard, but I doubt it. I didn't have any issue cranking my Onkyo or yamaha with the XPA-2. If it is a certain frequency it could be something is slightly loose that resonates at that frequency. I think I would consider talking to Lonnie or Nick at Emotiva about the issue. Or check your M80s with the Denon and see if they distort.

This is a tough one to guess at.
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292260 - 02/14/10 09:26 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
al1en Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 76
Loc: Wichita, KS
I have been fighting with M60s and Denon 3805 sounding too harsh for a while. With rock and metal music the combo often sounded harsh (think Slayer solos).

I have found that adjusting the pre-amp channel levels to set the mains at +0dB (was previously +6dB) has helped tremendously, even when playing at the same calibrated volume level(using a dB meter) in Direct mode. The preamp may have been inducting some minor distortion I guess?

Also if you are using Audissey or any other EQ you should ensure that you do not have any significant bumps in your curve. I would re-run your test will all EQs disabled.


Edited by al1en (02/14/10 09:28 PM)
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M60s, VP150, QS8s(3), SVS PB12-isd, Denon 3805, Emotiva UPA-7

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#292261 - 02/14/10 09:46 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: al1en]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
I did not get to directly compare the XPA-2 to the XPa-1s at the GTG. I think the only XPA-2 there belonged to the homeowner. Also didnt get to really crank them because they were in the living room upstairs. The setup had the USP-1, ERC-1 and the XPA-1s Someday I hope to own the same setup.

For me having the power amp is not just about headroom. It is probably more about sound quality. I went from a yamaha receiver and added a LPA-1, then a XPA-5, and now the XPA-2. Along with receiver and pre/pro changes every time I felt the sound has improved. May be just placebo but I know when I switched back to the Onkyo amps a few weeks ago I was stunned about how much different the M80s sounded. Not nearly as good IMHO. However the Onkyo did sound pretty good as a preamp.
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292296 - 02/15/10 12:57 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: al1en]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: al1en

I have found that adjusting the pre-amp channel levels to set the mains at +0dB (was previously +6dB) has helped tremendously, even when playing at the same calibrated volume level(using a dB meter) in Direct mode. The preamp may have been inducting some minor distortion I guess?
That would be my guess as well as 0db would the max for most settings without introducing the possibility of distortion on most systems I have looked at and the fact that most recordings are not that great any more with induced extremes over doing the settings on the speaker levels will most certainly show distortion with out much effort.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#292348 - 02/15/10 04:46 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: jakewash]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
OK. Here's what I did today on my Denon...Crossed F/R 60hz and 80hz and setted RESTORER to OFF and My M80 sound so magically dynamic in Pure/DIRECT mode. I can push the Denon to -12dB without getting NO DISTORTION and SHUTDOWN problem. This was done with lots of listen in hip hop/pop/rap most with heavy bass.
With RESTORER to HG mode I can see my XPA 2 LED meter hit up to 10 lights. Restorer to OFF, it drops to 7-8 lights. Gmeyer - Could be what you stated that I push my Denon too hard to the MAX. Also, my SPL read at the highest point I recorded was 115. MAN the M80 sound so amazing. My normal listen SPL is around 80-91.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292351 - 02/15/10 05:18 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17752
Loc: NoVA
What the heck is Restorer? I think you've found your culprit.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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