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#291185 - 02/07/10 05:11 PM Denon with external amp
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Just wondering. When you hook up an external amp to a Denon receiver does this disable the amps on the Denon?
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291194 - 02/07/10 05:49 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6607
Loc: It's all about the location.
I've not tried hooking up an external to my Denon, but isn't that what the pre-outs do? once you hook a speaker up to the pre-out, you have bypassed the amp for that particular channel while leaving the amp working on the other channels?


Edited by Adrian (02/07/10 05:56 PM)
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#291197 - 02/07/10 06:01 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Adrian]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I thought so but I really don't know.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291205 - 02/07/10 06:47 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
Luke Smith Offline
buff

Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 43
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Unless its got some little loops in the back like Ive seen on old Yamaha amps then the receivers amp will still be running, but given that its got no load its not going to contribute much noise or load to the rest of the system. Don't worry about it.

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#291210 - 02/07/10 07:15 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Luke Smith]
PhillipD Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 142
Loc: Grande Prairie, Alberta
So then in theory one could bi amp a set of M80's then. If you took your AVR and pre outed the two mains and then used the second amp as well....no?

Would bi amping be better than one dedicated 300-350W @ 4 ohms stable be?

Later
Phil

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#291231 - 02/07/10 10:34 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: PhillipD]
onn Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 900
Loc: Edmonton Alberta
You can't bi-amp the same signal. As soon as you use the preout for a particular speaker on the receiver you can't hook up the same speaker to the receiver output for that speaker. I guess I should let Let John K answer this.
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My system

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#291232 - 02/07/10 10:45 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: onn]
Luke Smith Offline
buff

Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 43
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
you could bi-amp if you had bi-wiring and bi-speakers.... but theres not much point... not that theres ever been much point to bi-wiring.

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#291236 - 02/08/10 12:20 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Luke Smith]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
A bi speaker is one that can switch one of its outputs to an input, right?
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"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#291238 - 02/08/10 12:44 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: pmbuko]
Luke Smith Offline
buff

Registered: 01/13/10
Posts: 43
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
A bi speaker is one that can switch one of its outputs to an input, right?


hahah

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#291239 - 02/08/10 01:40 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Luke Smith]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17753
Loc: NoVA
I thought that was a herma speaker.
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I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#291249 - 02/08/10 09:46 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
Yeah Rick, I'm pretty sure that is the case with most receivers. As soon as you use the "pre-outs" for any given channel, that bypasses the internal amp stage. However, I guess I've never tried to hook up a pair of speakers to the regular speaker jacks, AND use the pre-outs at the same time.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#291250 - 02/08/10 10:06 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: SirQuack]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I can't remember what receiver, but some model had a warning against hooking up speakers when the pre-outs were connected to amps.

I do remember that someone used a Kill-A-Watt on a previous Pioneer Elite flagship receiver. He found that when there were no speakers connected to the internal amps they still drew some power vs. going into the settings and disabling the amps. It wasn't much, like 5 Watts, but that does add up over time. My current Pioneer, while having pre-outs has no setting to disable the internal amps.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#291260 - 02/08/10 12:11 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ClubNeon]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3885
Loc: Up yonder
Ricky- I'm using the pre outs for five channels that go to a 5X200 external amp, and using the 3808's amp for the surround back channels.
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#291261 - 02/08/10 12:21 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: michael_d]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Mike, are the binding posts that you're using the preouts on still active?
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291269 - 02/08/10 12:40 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Even if a receiver leaves both its internal amps and pre-outs active at the same time, bi-amping is going to be a problem. Adjusting the channel trims will cut both the internal amp, and the signal going to the external. Unless the external has exactly the same gain as the built-in, you're going to end up with half the speaker at a different level. You'd have to use an external amp with it's own trim setting.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#291272 - 02/08/10 12:52 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ClubNeon]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I have no plans on anything like this, the question was brought up and I was looking for the correct answer.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291351 - 02/08/10 10:27 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10374
Rick, most(all?)HT receivers don't have a device to cut off the pre-amplifier voltage from the internal amplifier output channels when the pre-outs are used. This can be tested on any particular unit by inserting an RCA plug(doesn't have to be connected to anything)into the pre-out and observing whether the regular sound from the receiver to that speaker is cut off.

An example of where a cut off does occur is using the headphone outputs of most HT receivers. Since these units(contrary to some belief)don't use a "cheap" separate headphone amp, but instead the regular amplifier greatly attenuated for headphone use, the output would no longer be suitable for driving speakers. Therefore, inserting the headphone plug moves a mechanical switch which cuts off the pre-amp voltage from the regular output channels, which merely continue at "idle".

Phil, more than connecting a separate amplifier to one section of the speaker is needed for true bi-amping and to have any significant benefits. An external crossover(usually electronic)has to be used ahead of both amplifiers so that each receives only the desired limited range of frequencies to amplify. The internal crossover in the speaker has to be removed, or at least bypassed.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#291357 - 02/08/10 11:11 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: JohnK]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Thanks John.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291836 - 02/11/10 09:50 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
I'm using the pre outs for SEVEN channels FROM my Denon 3808 to my external EMOTIVA AMP (2). SQ is so dynamic and lots headroom. I will never go back to AVR. The best sound I was missing from my Axiom speakers for a year until I was introduce to me from this forum. The reason I did upgrade was that Denon can not bring out the best of these AXIOM speakers. With external amp,I can hear the musical instrument details and the punch of those Axiom mid-bass sound so good which I was looking for in these AXIOM speakers. But, I would like to share some issue I ran into with EMO amp and my M80V2. Right now I am stucked with the so call distortion and clipping issue with EMOTIVA amp (XPA 2). Believe me with the external amp it's sound very good, but but be careful with external amp make sure it is a 2 ohm stable amp if you are pairing with M80v2. This Issue-DISTORTION AND CLIPPING WHEN EVER I PUSH the volume up. It is not that loud, just when I play above my listen level for demo to friends with heavy rap/pop music. Some how some where the M80v2 impedence dipped below 2ohm. Other than that it sound very good with external amp. I am kinda disappointed with my M80v2. I thought m80s are suppose to be an efficient 4 ohm speaker/easy speaker to drive . O well. I am returning my Emotiva XPA 2 next week from the 30 days in home trial period. Plus,I tried Outlaw amps and Adcom, EMOTIVA amp sound better and cheaper. If you have other Axiom speakers besides the M80 your be fine with any external amp.


Edited by GS951 (02/11/10 09:58 PM)
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291840 - 02/11/10 09:58 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
At no point in the impedance curve does the M80 dip below 4 ohm.


_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291845 - 02/11/10 10:13 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
With the graph it looks real good on paper. This is the curve that sold me with Axiom speakers. But, believe me, when you have the 80s in the room and play demo loud you will find out the what 80s can lead into distortion. It does dip a lot lower than that. Before the external amp. My denon never clip. Right now I am listening with my friend. He is new in HT audiophile world and listening to my system as I typing. It did clips twice now. We played Snoopdog, alicia key, Jay Z...anything with heavy bass it will distort. Plus, I have my neighbor brought his Polk LSi 15 (4ohms) and we are doing A/B right now...into 5 mins. Polk is doing OK. I am stuck with the 80s. They do sound very dynamic with EMOTIVA AMP...I am looking into other amp right too power my 80s.


Edited by GS951 (02/11/10 10:15 PM)
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291847 - 02/11/10 10:23 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I know what the M80s can do, I've had them nearly 7 years. I power them with a Rotel RB 1080 and never had the Rotel go into protect mode. A good quality amp should have no problem driving the Axioms to ear bleeding levels. The Rotel can indeed do it.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291848 - 02/11/10 10:32 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6607
Loc: It's all about the location.
If I'm not mistaken, haven't there been complaints about Emotiva amps shutting down on other 4 ohm speakers besides Axioms?
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#291849 - 02/11/10 10:32 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Yes. This is my first for going external. Thanks for sharing about the Rotel. I just learning now that I have to find an amp that is stable at 2 ohm to drive the 80s because Rotel is stable at 2 ohm. EMO XPA 2 amp is not. I will look into Rotel and can you tell me where you get yours. I am looking into 2 channels amp that is under $1000.00 and around 300 watts or higher the better. Let me know. Again, I think 80s do dips below 3ohms and fews amp out there can handle those low impedence load. Thanks
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291850 - 02/11/10 10:34 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17753
Loc: NoVA
The high end Emotivas are the only external amps we've come across with problems with the M80s. Outlaws, Rotels, Parasounds, Crowns, Axioms (of course), Denons, no problem. High end Emotiva? Problem. I wouldn't be pointing at the M80s...
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#291852 - 02/11/10 10:38 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
I've driven my 80's to some pretty darn high levels without ever once clipping the 80s and it's only rated at 75wpc.

I'm with the others, it ain't the M80s.
_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#291853 - 02/11/10 10:42 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Rotel is only sold by local retailers. Check the Rotel site to see if you have a dealer near you.

Seems strange the Denon doesn't shut down but the EMO amp does. That should tell ya something about the quality.

The graph I posted was done by a third party, SoundStage , and was done independently. Once again, the M80s do not fall below 4 ohm.

Did you test them to come to your conclusion?
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291860 - 02/11/10 10:55 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
No measure just by reading lots of reviews such as http://WWW.skiingninja.com and many Axiom owners discussed in EMOTIVA Forum. I will post the website that talks about the 80s impedence dip below 4 ohm. Believe me I love Axiom speakers. Denon do not have thermal heat sensor. That they will not shut down, but the play loud and no dynamic details compare with what I am hearing from EMOTIVA AMP. I am planning to return the amp next week. Also, I did talked with EMO Tech. and they can not believe M80v2 is very hard to drive...Well, I believe all your words and other reviews are true. Until now, I experienced what is really mean with clipping issue. Thanks again. I will look into Rotel and Adcom.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291861 - 02/11/10 10:57 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17753
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, the Ninja has a serious beef with Axiom (particularly because of this forum, I believe)--and he hasn't tested the current M80s.

It's really your choice as to which forum population to believe, but at least we've got the graphs on our side.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#291863 - 02/11/10 11:03 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6607
Loc: It's all about the location.
And....those graphs are third party, as Rick mentioned.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#291864 - 02/11/10 11:06 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I take Soundstages word and measurements over the ninjas any day.

I read a review of the Rotel amp I use and it didn't fair well with speakers that dipped below 4 ohm. I've never had a problem and that would indicate to me Soundstages measurements are correct.

You can read it here.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291871 - 02/11/10 11:24 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Wid...what I don't understand is why my m80v2 do not pair well with EMO amp, but are perfect with my neighbor Polk LSi15 with no clipping. This is all new to me. First when I bought my Axiom m80, I thought any amp with real power to drive them will have no problem and only the underpower amp is the cause of the clipping.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291876 - 02/11/10 11:31 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10374
GS, welcome. "Believe me", or "I think" can't overcome the solid evidence of the measured curve which Rick showed. This was made not by SoundStage itself, but by the NRC(National Research Council of Canada), one of the world's most highly respected independent audio testing organizations. The M80s can be driven to beyond safe listening levels by your 3808 and similar units.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#291878 - 02/11/10 11:33 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Yeah, the Ninja has a serious beef with Axiom (particularly because of this forum, I believe)--and he hasn't tested the current M80s.

It's really your choice as to which forum population to believe, but at least we've got the graphs on our side.


Yes. I am on your side too. I own Axiom speakers, and this week I really experienced the clipping issue with m80. I read here and EMO forum many stated the 80s are difficult to drive speakers. So I was being stubborn, I tried with EMO amp and now experience the distortion/clipping problem with my speaker. Also, earlier this week I spoke with Axiom tech support...they also said 80s do dipps into below 3 ohms in some frequency. Well, I have to find the amp that advertised in the stable 2 ohm not 4 ohm. I learn my lesson here.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291881 - 02/11/10 11:39 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

It's fairly simple. The Polks are easier to drive. The M80s draw more current from an amp than the typical 8 ohm speaker making it hard for the the amp not to run into over load.

If it was a well engineered amp it should not be having problems. Look at your Denon, it will drive the M80s fine.

What Axiom tech told you that?
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291882 - 02/11/10 11:40 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: JohnK]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
GS, welcome. "Believe me", or "I think" can't overcome the solid evidence of the measured curve which Rick showed. This was made not by SoundStage itself, but by the NRC(National Research Council of Canada), one of the world's most highly respected independent audio testing organizations. The M80s can be driven to beyond safe listening levels by your 3808 and similar units.


JohnK-Thanks. I do believe the reviews last year that got me hook with Axiom speakers and pulled the trigger. Also, I have in my family are Klipsch RF5 and the sound increabible with EMO Amp. Here listen to these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jRwSgey-mg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFvl3rsqZn4


Edited by GS951 (02/11/10 11:41 PM)
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291883 - 02/11/10 11:42 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
 Originally Posted By: wid

It's fairly simple. The Polks are easier to drive. The M80s draw more current from an amp than the typical 8 ohm speaker making it hard for the the amp not to run into over load.

If it was a well engineered amp it should not be having problems. Look at your Denon, it will drive the M80s fine.

What Axiom tech told you that?


Brent...on the phone and phone conversation.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291884 - 02/11/10 11:45 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Really. He has given me the wrong info before too.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291890 - 02/11/10 11:54 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#291896 - 02/12/10 12:21 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Wow! After reading Alan's thread I do feel safe. Wid-I discovered the clipping problem happen during music play in Direct and PureDirect mode from Denon DSP. 2 Stereo, 7 ch stereo, and Dolby Digital OK. Could it be the pair problem DENON and EMO amp.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291898 - 02/12/10 12:39 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Thank you guys for all your help. I will talk with EMO tomorrow about this clipping with my M80v2. Good night all.

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=amps&thread=4057&page=2#60582
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#291924 - 02/12/10 12:08 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8278
Loc: Tacoma
You're not going to get satisfaction from talking to Emotiva about this issue. They - predictably - assert that the M80 is difficult to drive. However, the Emotiva amps seem to be the only ones that have that difficulty. It's not a "pairing" problem between the Denon and the Emotiva. It's not the M80's causing the distortion. That Emotiva amp has a problem with difficult loads. Follow Wid's advice and get a Rotel or one of the brands Ken mentioned. Do a forum search here for Emotiva and read the many, long, detailed threads that detail the agony of people like you that have tried this before.

A pair of Outlaw monoblocks might fit the bill.

Look, I desperately want to like Emotiva products. Their company is run by fine people. I like their style. I like the value proposition. But there is something about the engineering inside the XPA series amps that just doesn't play nice with the impedance presented by certain speakers.

As others have mentioned, if you're not hearing the distortion at similar volumes by simply using the Denon's onboard amps, that should tell you everything you need to know.
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#291926 - 02/12/10 12:17 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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What the guy with beer-breath said.

 Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Look, I desperately want to like Emotiva products. Their company is run by fine people. I like their style. I like the value proposition.

And I like their pretty blue lights.

Anyone who knows anything knows that blue lights are the coolest! \:\)
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#291927 - 02/12/10 12:19 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Ken.C Offline
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I agree wholeheartedly with Tom. I'd love to like Emotivas, but I'm unwilling to give up the speaker sound I love just to get an amp.
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#291929 - 02/12/10 12:26 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: MarkSJohnson]
htnut
Unregistered


I agree with football head, blue lights are the best.

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#291930 - 02/12/10 12:34 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ]
BlueJays1 Offline
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While blue lights might look nice, they can be awfully distracting on the rack while trying to watch a movie (if they are in sight). Some equipment with blue lights, if not implemented properly are blinding.
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#291932 - 02/12/10 12:41 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: BlueJays1]
EFalardeau Offline
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I, too, find blue lights generally way too bright. Pretty, but I don't buy equipment to look at the equipment.
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#291933 - 02/12/10 12:45 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: EFalardeau]
Ken.C Offline
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One of the prettiest pieces of equipement I've owned was a Marantz 2252B receiver. It was all brushed aluminum (even the radio dial) and had red and blue lights. Loved that thing. Of course, those blue lights were light bulbs behind blue plastic or something like, so that's a bit different.
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#291935 - 02/12/10 12:55 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: BlueJays1]
RickF Offline
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Blue lights are cool!

I've read that some of the newer Rotel gear has non-dimmable blue lights, which as the good Dr. states can probably be very distracting if the equipment rack is in sight while watching a movie. That is what I really like about having the equipment rack behind the seating area of the room, I really like this guy's setup but the Rotel lights are mighty bright though.


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#291936 - 02/12/10 12:55 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: EFalardeau]
BlueJays1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: EFalardeau
I, too, find blue lights generally way too bright. Pretty, but I don't buy equipment to look at the equipment.


I concur.
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#291937 - 02/12/10 12:57 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: BlueJays1]
BlueJays1 Offline
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Thats a nice rack! \:D
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#291938 - 02/12/10 12:57 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: BlueJays1]
EFalardeau Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
 Originally Posted By: EFalardeau
I, too, find blue lights generally way too bright. Pretty, but I don't buy equipment to look at the equipment.


I concur.

I concur with your concurrence. \:\)
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#291942 - 02/12/10 01:09 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: EFalardeau]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Speaking of a desire to see nice racks, where's Charles been lately?
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#291943 - 02/12/10 01:10 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: MarkSJohnson]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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And, I like my blue lights dim...they better represent me.
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#291949 - 02/12/10 01:43 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: MarkSJohnson]
EFalardeau Offline
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Registered: 08/27/07
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dim and dimmer...
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#291951 - 02/12/10 01:46 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: MarkSJohnson]
medic8r Offline
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Registered: 02/05/06
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 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Speaking of a desire to see nice racks, where's Charles been lately?

There's always wheelz's photo thread ...
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#291954 - 02/12/10 01:47 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: medic8r]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
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HEHEHEHE
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#291962 - 02/12/10 02:04 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: RickF]
pmbuko Offline
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 Originally Posted By: RickF
Blue lights are cool!

That color temperature joke didn't get by me.
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#291969 - 02/12/10 02:27 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: pmbuko]
ClubNeon Offline
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...I was going to correct that.
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#292010 - 02/12/10 04:05 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ClubNeon]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
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Registered: 06/23/07
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Speaking of lights on components, are any of you guys aware of some sort of tape or something that can be applied over top of said lights to dim them even more? The lights on my APC Power commissioner are set to their lowest setting, but they are still fairly bright.

I didn't know if there was some sort of film available that I could adhere across the front of the unit where the lights are. It would obviously have to be a clean look and inconspicuous.

Any thoughts?
Thanks
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#292012 - 02/12/10 04:08 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
tomtuttle Offline
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I used double-sided tape to put a quarter over the spectacularly bright blue circle of lights on the DTV receiver in our bedroom. It's ghetto fabulous.

Am I helping?
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#292021 - 02/12/10 04:17 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: tomtuttle]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
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LOL Tom, yes you are helping. Now I know what to do if I want to "pimp my room" \:\) .
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#292041 - 02/12/10 06:20 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
RickF Offline
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Registered: 02/26/05
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Cam in my work plane a couple of the digital displays are like that at night time, even with the dimmest setting they are still bright ... I took some static cling window tinting and cut it to fit the face of the display, works great and it can used over and over again.

I don't know if that would work with your application or not but it's a thought, also that tint comes in various colors and shades so it can be matched fairly easily.
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#292042 - 02/12/10 06:24 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: RickF]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
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Registered: 06/23/07
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That's awesome, Rick! I know exactly what you are talking about, as I was going to get some professionally installed on my windows. I really think that's my best option; I'll pick some up at the local hardware store.

Thanks again, man.
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#292043 - 02/12/10 06:29 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
RickF Offline
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Registered: 02/26/05
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Anytime brother ... I hope it works for you! \:\)
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#292089 - 02/12/10 11:32 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: RickF]
jakewash Offline
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Great tip Rick, hey, where is that audio ideas and tips thread.......
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#292116 - 02/13/10 01:11 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: jakewash]
GS951 Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
HI guys...I'm back and have some update. Well, EMO told me just return XPA 2 for full refund because I am not happy and try their only top notch line of amp monoblock (XPA 1)that can take a difficult load, M80. XPA 1 is a 2 ohm stablize amp. But, man it's like $1k a piece kinda over my budget at this time. I might give them a try. Also, I wanted to add to my external amp experience that I did tried out Outlaw monoblock M2200 with M80. From my OWN opinion and HT set up, Outlaw sounds alright but EMO XPA 2 sound more dynamic and detailed base on my HT set up and my ears. But, man there is something I like about the EMO amp sound that matches very dynamic sound which I really like coming out from my M80. Tell me this... I don't really do not understand much.It just that when I demo and crank up the volume in the 3-6 mins., distortion and clipping problem happen during music play in Direct and PureDirect mode from Denon DSP. 2 Stereo, 7 ch stereo, and Dolby Digital OK. Could it be the pairing problem my DENON and EMO amp. I will post my HT AXIOM speakers PICs set up soon. Thanks again for all the adviced and opinion from the AXIOM forum.


Edited by GS951 (02/13/10 01:31 PM)
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#292117 - 02/13/10 01:15 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Wid Offline
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Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

How do you have the M80s crossed over in the Denons set up? Do you have them set to small?
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#292118 - 02/13/10 01:18 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Hi WID...nice to hear from you again. Much appreciated to come on line today. Here, my Denon configuration set up.
All my speakers crossed over to SMALL. F/R at 40 hz and sub is LFE with 80Hz crossover.


Edited by GS951 (02/13/10 01:19 PM)
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#292120 - 02/13/10 01:32 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
htnut
Unregistered


I would try crossing the M80's over at 60Hz or 80Hz instead.

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#292122 - 02/13/10 01:51 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ]
GS951 Offline
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OK. I'll try both 60 and 80Hz. But, why I get distortion in the DIRECT AND PURE DIRECT mode. In Pure/Direct mode I hear very different, much better dynamic sound and sound a lot better than 2 channel stereo mode. Pure/Direct mode are my regular 2 channel for my music listening. Is it too much bass in these two modes that is coming from my Audyssey. Or should I re-calibrate my system again?


Edited by GS951 (02/13/10 01:52 PM)
_________________________
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#292123 - 02/13/10 01:55 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ]
Wid Offline
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 Originally Posted By: htnut
I would try crossing the M80's over at 60Hz or 80Hz instead.


I would try the same. It would ease the work load of the amp.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#292124 - 02/13/10 01:57 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
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Loc: Murrieta, CA
Ok thanks. I'll be back later on today for the update.
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#292125 - 02/13/10 01:58 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
GS951 Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Would it be necessary to do Audyssey calibration again? Or just leaving as is.


Edited by GS951 (02/13/10 01:58 PM)
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#292130 - 02/13/10 02:51 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
htnut
Unregistered


If you ask in regard to just adjusting the crossover then no noeed to run Audyssey again.

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#292132 - 02/13/10 03:38 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: ]
Ken.C Offline
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Wait a second, you're running Audyssey EQ? Turn it off and see if you like it better.
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#292133 - 02/13/10 03:54 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
Ken.C Offline
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Also, what volume levels are we talking about here?
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#292134 - 02/13/10 04:11 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
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 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Wait a second, you're running Audyssey EQ? Turn it off and see if you like it better.


Oh no, you didnít . . .? ;\)


Edited by grunt (02/13/10 04:18 PM)
Edit Reason: added emoticon
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#292135 - 02/13/10 04:16 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
Ken.C Offline
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Well, we have to reduce the variables--or at least get some more data. Changing the crossover is unlikely to affect distortion, and I have a hard time believing, after thinking on it, that the Emotiva is distorting rather than just shutting down if it can't handle the impedance. There's something else going on here.
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#292136 - 02/13/10 04:24 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
grunt Offline
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Sorry Ken. I thought youíd know I was just poking fun at the Audyssey Posse.
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#292140 - 02/13/10 05:48 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
Ken.C Offline
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Oh, I figured as much.
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#292142 - 02/13/10 07:03 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
michael_d Offline
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Iím probably wrong, but I thought that when in direct or pure direct there was no EQ applied and it was just straight stereo??

Iím also quite curious just what SPL levels you are experiencing when you say it clips. I canít be in the same room with just the 3808 driving my M80ís. Way too loud. Well over 100 DB.

One other thing to be cautious about, is if you are actually hearing clipping, youíve already crossed over to a clipping state well before you hear it. Iíd stop doing that before you screw up your drivers.
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#292165 - 02/14/10 10:58 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: michael_d]
gmeyer Offline
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I will test my XPA-2 and M80s in direct mode and see if I have any issues with heavy bass. The XPA-2's meters should help indicate when it is being driven too hard. I am also curious at what point the m80 woofers will start to bottom out. I don't see them producing really low frequency bass at very high levels without a sub to help. They do however produce a lot of punch with bass that is around 45-65 HZ (just guessing on frequency). With Rap music or any other low frequency bass I have to use my sub to get strong output.
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#292166 - 02/14/10 11:32 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
Ok I dont have a ton of bass heavy music, but I do have the Grammy nominees cds from 2009 and 2010. I tested with Apologize from one republic, I kissed a girl- Katy perry, from 2009 and poker face - Lady Gaga.

I used my Checkmate cm-140 spl meter C weighted and turned up these songs to 100db. which is about all I can take. The XPA-2s meters were peaking at 8 blue LEDs out of 12 I cant remember how may of the twelve are red? Maybe four. This is with the sub removed.

My findings are IMHO that the bass is not as strong as I would like it. The mids and highs sound more strained then they do with the sub/crossover turned on. The m80s are easier to listen to at these levels with the sub on. I am not hearing any glaring distortion they are just more harsh/a little strained sounding. At these levels the bass is starting to bottom. It sounds like I am reaching the limits of the woofers. I could drive them harder I think but I don't want to damage my equipment or ears.

For me these heavy bass songs sound way better with my sub. The highs and midrange are crisp and clear. And the bass output is much stronger as expected.

Not sure if this helps just my observations.
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#292167 - 02/14/10 11:40 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
OK I added the sub back crossed over at 60hz and at the same volume setting I am hitting 108db and the sound is easier to listen to than without the sub at 100db however my ears are telling me that this is all I can take in one sitting. My XPA-2 is cruising along at 4 LEDs lit.
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#292182 - 02/14/10 12:50 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
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I would return the XPA-2 and get something else. If itís distorting (staining) at 100dB while showing in the ďblueĒ there is something wrong with it IMO. As a test to be sure it could handle it I played some very intense GOA Trance (150+ BPM) on my Onkyo 3007 at 100dB 3 meters away for two hours w/o noticing any distortion or shutting down with no extra ventilation. If a 140w/ch receiver can handle the M80s w/o a problem so to should a 500w/ch @ 4ohm amp. For that matter a 75w/ch tube amp should be able to handle that with just a tiny bit to spare.

OTOH, if you canít listen at 100dB then it really shouldnít matter that the amp canít handle it.

Seems like Emo is having quality control issues with parts or something. I canít think of what else would explain some people having no problem at all with a particular amp driving the M80s while others have shutdowns or distortion at levels it should breeze right through. But Iím sure Emo will blame the speaker. ;\)
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#292183 - 02/14/10 12:57 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
Wid Offline
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Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I really doubt the M80s are bottoming out the drivers. You might be hearing the limit of the amp.
_________________________
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#292186 - 02/14/10 01:17 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
michael_d Offline
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Registered: 07/23/04
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Irreversible hearing damage occurs at 140 peak DB (instantaneous) and 104 sustained DB (one hour). Be careful.


Edited by michael_d (02/14/10 01:17 PM)
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#292188 - 02/14/10 01:30 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: michael_d]
grunt Offline
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Registered: 12/04/06
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I spent most of the time working outside in the yard hoping to stave off the neighbors from calling the cops if they didnít like it. When inside except for an occasional listening test I was wearing double hearing protection.
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#292189 - 02/14/10 01:56 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
Before I sold my Onkyo tx-nr1007 I hooked up my M80s to the receiver for the prospective buyer. We had just listened to it through the XPA-2 and I wanted to make sure the amps were OK as I had never used the internal amps. We both immediately noticed that they did not sound as good. I am not knocking the receiver it can drive the speakers no problem. For me the amp made a huge difference and I would not want to go back. It sounded cleaner with more impact, but if my amp did not sound good or shutdown I would return it.
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#292198 - 02/14/10 03:04 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Sorry about the shutting down part I miss-read one of GS951ís comments as yours. OTOH, the issue of QC is still valid in that his XPA-2 is shutting down and yours isnít with the same speakers, something is causing the 2 amps to behave differently. Any idea if you guys are using the same gauge wire?

Also, this isnít the only case of the same Emo amp performing differently with the M80s. In many if not most cases they work fine but then occasionally they donít and Emo says itís the fault of the speaker.

In your case the mids and highs from the XPA-2 still should not be ďharsh/a little strained soundingĒ playing your M80s full range at 100 dB. How high did you have to pump them up to start hearing this to where applying bass management made such a difference (more bass not withstanding)?

Also I agree with wid that the M80s drivers are not likely bottoming out.

AFAIK no other amp/receiver manufactureís equipment is doing this. Itís just my opinion but Iím guessing that Emo is pushing the limit on the parts specked for some designs to keep costs down. Get an occasional out of spec part or outright counterfeit in a system already being pushed to the limit and you get problems. Iíd love to see someone test all the parts of two Emo amps, one that has issues and another that doesnít, and see how all the components compare.
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#292201 - 02/14/10 03:39 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
My amp has a modified protection circuit that is not as aggressive as a stock XPA-2. I mentioned it in another thread, but not here.

I know others have had issues with the XPA-2 and other amps with the M80s. Its a shame because when they work together the results IMO are hard to beat for the money.

I think some of the harshness I perceived without the sub may be due to having less bass to balance the highs. Not to mention the amp is spending a lot more energy on bass then it is with the crossover in place.

I didnt mean to say that the woofers are hitting a point where they are reaching their mechanical limitation. they are moving to a point where I wonder how much farther I want to push them. The sound of the woofers is somewhat less clean to me at this point.

It does sound like their are other differences in our two amps beside the protection circuit. I am using 14ga in wall speaker wire purchased from Lowes.

I also have had the opportunity of trying an older pair of M80s that my friend bought used. My amps had no issue driving them either. I will say an M80 laying on its side makes an interesting center channel. I hope they do decide to sell a horizontal version of the M80.

Dan & Lonnie from emotiva saw/heard my M80s at a St. Louis GTG. There they were being driven by a pair of XPA-1's which I would love to have.
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292203 - 02/14/10 03:51 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Interesting stuff. Is the modified protection circuit Emo or after market? Did you get a chance to A/B compare the XPA-2 and XPA-1s driving the M80s?

Also, I what to be sure no one thinks Iím slamming Emo I just donít like reading things in other forums where people are still talking about M80s being ďhard to driveĒ when theyíve never even used them. AFAIK thatís based on some older low end receivers not playing nice with the M80s but the ďMemeĒ is still hanging around.

Some day I Ďmight try out more powerful amps but I can already play loud enough w/o hearing distortion to damage my hearing and that my neighbors could call the cops on me so there are other priorities right now.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#292222 - 02/14/10 04:55 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: grunt]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
OK. I changed my crossover to 60 and 80 hz and did not re-cal audyssey. This was done in Pure/Direct mode with Audyssey EQ turn ON (Sound a whole lot better than EQ OFFT). It's like night and day. With Crossover at 80hz I was able to push into 3 db high than crossed at 40hz. This time playing at the same clipped volume level(-16 db on my Denon)...and SPL level ~103-108. Good news, NO Shutdown, Just some frequency I can hear distortion from the woofers. Here are my My room configuration is 3200 cubic feet and what I have and did with the SPL meter I think I am bottom out M80s woofers? I think I did set up the SPL meter correct. Place my SPL meter on Tripod at the center of my listen couch,the height at 42inches, point up to the ceiling position, setted at slow response, C weighting, and my cables are from EMOTIVA Ultra Series (12 gauge). Also, on the XPA 2 LED meter I can see 8-10 lighted up and good new no red LED light this time.
Thanks for all your help. I just want the best sound I can hear from my M80 with an affordable price on EMO amp. I have two days to make my decision on EMO XPA 2 before I return for refund and move on. Tell me guys what do I have here or my problem is. I hear distortion from my M80 woofers NO CLIPPING this time with 60 and 80 hz crossed. You think I bottom out my speakers. I don't listen to this loud just there times I do want to demo for 1 or 2 songs to show off my equipment. I thank you for all your supports. AXIOM speakers are the BEST!
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292256 - 02/14/10 09:17 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
I am not sure why you are still getting the distortion. I have not had any real distorting of my woofers where they sound mechanically overdriven like a crackle. It could be that the woofers were damaged from diving the XPA-2 into clipping. The XPA-2 could have an issue. I am not sure the protection circuit would cause that. Maybe the Denon preamp is being driven too hard, but I doubt it. I didn't have any issue cranking my Onkyo or yamaha with the XPA-2. If it is a certain frequency it could be something is slightly loose that resonates at that frequency. I think I would consider talking to Lonnie or Nick at Emotiva about the issue. Or check your M80s with the Denon and see if they distort.

This is a tough one to guess at.
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292260 - 02/14/10 09:26 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: gmeyer]
al1en Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 76
Loc: Wichita, KS
I have been fighting with M60s and Denon 3805 sounding too harsh for a while. With rock and metal music the combo often sounded harsh (think Slayer solos).

I have found that adjusting the pre-amp channel levels to set the mains at +0dB (was previously +6dB) has helped tremendously, even when playing at the same calibrated volume level(using a dB meter) in Direct mode. The preamp may have been inducting some minor distortion I guess?

Also if you are using Audissey or any other EQ you should ensure that you do not have any significant bumps in your curve. I would re-run your test will all EQs disabled.


Edited by al1en (02/14/10 09:28 PM)
_________________________
M60s, VP150, QS8s(3), SVS PB12-isd, Denon 3805, Emotiva UPA-7

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#292261 - 02/14/10 09:46 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: al1en]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
I did not get to directly compare the XPA-2 to the XPa-1s at the GTG. I think the only XPA-2 there belonged to the homeowner. Also didnt get to really crank them because they were in the living room upstairs. The setup had the USP-1, ERC-1 and the XPA-1s Someday I hope to own the same setup.

For me having the power amp is not just about headroom. It is probably more about sound quality. I went from a yamaha receiver and added a LPA-1, then a XPA-5, and now the XPA-2. Along with receiver and pre/pro changes every time I felt the sound has improved. May be just placebo but I know when I switched back to the Onkyo amps a few weeks ago I was stunned about how much different the M80s sounded. Not nearly as good IMHO. However the Onkyo did sound pretty good as a preamp.
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292296 - 02/15/10 12:57 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: al1en]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: al1en

I have found that adjusting the pre-amp channel levels to set the mains at +0dB (was previously +6dB) has helped tremendously, even when playing at the same calibrated volume level(using a dB meter) in Direct mode. The preamp may have been inducting some minor distortion I guess?
That would be my guess as well as 0db would the max for most settings without introducing the possibility of distortion on most systems I have looked at and the fact that most recordings are not that great any more with induced extremes over doing the settings on the speaker levels will most certainly show distortion with out much effort.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
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#292348 - 02/15/10 04:46 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: jakewash]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
OK. Here's what I did today on my Denon...Crossed F/R 60hz and 80hz and setted RESTORER to OFF and My M80 sound so magically dynamic in Pure/DIRECT mode. I can push the Denon to -12dB without getting NO DISTORTION and SHUTDOWN problem. This was done with lots of listen in hip hop/pop/rap most with heavy bass.
With RESTORER to HG mode I can see my XPA 2 LED meter hit up to 10 lights. Restorer to OFF, it drops to 7-8 lights. Gmeyer - Could be what you stated that I push my Denon too hard to the MAX. Also, my SPL read at the highest point I recorded was 115. MAN the M80 sound so amazing. My normal listen SPL is around 80-91.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292351 - 02/15/10 05:18 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17753
Loc: NoVA
What the heck is Restorer? I think you've found your culprit.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#292354 - 02/15/10 05:28 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
It's like an other music EQ booster for treble and bass . Denon have 3 selections MODE 1,2, 3. I believe it a boost for music which lack or distortion in treble and bass. It works very well when listening with 2 ch music. I didn't know I always left it at HG (mode 3)on my Denon.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292361 - 02/15/10 05:52 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 4013
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
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Does a dyslexic atheist not believe in dog?

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#292374 - 02/15/10 06:43 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
gmeyer Offline
buff

Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Quincy, IL
GS951,

Glad to hear you are solving the problems with your system. So are you going to keep the XPA-2?
_________________________
M80,VP150,QS8,ERD-1,XPA-2,XPA-5,UMC-10,PS3,XBOX360,Dish VIP622,PB13 Ultra,Panasonic PT-AE3000U

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#292378 - 02/15/10 06:50 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Wheelz thank you for the link and all others(GRUNT, GMEYER AND WID)that helped me trouble shoot these difficult issues-THE DISTORTION AND CLIPPING. I leaned a lot the past few days from you guys on this Axiom website. You guys are very good and helpful. Now it;s my decision to either return or keep the EMO amp. Good amp and excellent price.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292383 - 02/15/10 06:57 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Gmeyer...I love the sound of the EMO amp with Axiom M80. It is very hard to say RETURN at this point. But, the truth is that I don't have shutdown problem anymore and know how to work around my Denon adjustment. Denon will be good service in my HT room for now until I receive my new EMO pre/pro UMC 1.
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292387 - 02/15/10 07:22 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17753
Loc: NoVA
Glad it's working for you now. I'd say keep the amp--it does seem to be working now, no? And like you said, it's an excellent price. Congrats!
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#292417 - 02/15/10 09:41 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Ken.C]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

It's good to hear the system is working well.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#292433 - 02/15/10 10:47 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: Wid]
GS951 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Murrieta, CA
Yes. Right now, it's working beautifully at this point. I picked out my BR movie, "U571" very extreme DTS-HD sound and half way into the movie. NO problem. The sound is so amazing with these AXIOM Speakers. The highest I recorded on my SPL meter is 107dB (with bomb, depth charge, gun fire, and ship explosion). SQ is dynamic loud!


Edited by GS951 (02/15/10 10:49 PM)
_________________________
7.2-M80V2, QS8, VP150, M22, REAL SUB.DENON3808.EMOTIVA AMP(XPA-2 AND XPA-5)EMOTIVA erc-1 and ps3.

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#292533 - 02/16/10 11:43 AM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: GS951]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Glad to hear you have your settings corrected and it helped your situation. Just out of curiosity what is your main music transport, CD or ripped music? The restorer function should only be used with ripped music as you have found out thanks to Cam's link.

Just goes to show how critical the avr settings are and how, when set incorrectly, can screw things up and the amp gets blamed.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#292559 - 02/16/10 01:15 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: jakewash]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
 Originally Posted By: jakewash


Just goes to show how critical the avr settings are and how, when set incorrectly, can screw things up and the amp and the M80s gets blamed.

There, fixed it for you Jay. \:\)
_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#292564 - 02/16/10 01:52 PM Re: Denon with external amp [Re: RickF]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Thanks!
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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