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#302507 - 04/19/10 09:34 PM Re: power amps [Re: patwho]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Pat, I've also read those claims about a separate amplifier helping with the "over all sound" of the speakers, but no factual basis for them has been shown. On the contrary, both basic audio theory and the results of properly controlled blind listening tests indicate that a correctly designed modern amplifier, regardless of whether it's in a receiver or separate, amplifies transparently, with flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion within its designed limits. Nothing more than this is possible; there are no miracles which occur when the amplifier is put into a separate box. Unless the present power of your 705 is inadequate for safe listening levels at your position(highly unlikely), buying still more maximum power capacity is money wasted. Unused power headroom is simply that: unused.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#302508 - 04/19/10 09:41 PM Re: power amps [Re: patwho]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13335
Loc: Iowa
shady, even $300 Denons will drive 80's to very loud, clear levels.

Pat, amplifiers amplify, that is it, they don't magically make the music sound better. The room characteristics and speakers would play a much bigger role in affecting the sound.

The advantage of having gobs of power may help at very high listening levels where extra headroom may be needed. However, most people would never listen at these levels in normal room sizes, and even a 100-120 watt receiver is more than enough to cover 15-20dB jumps.

Keep in mind, your Axioms only require a few watts to play very loud in most rooms.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#302510 - 04/19/10 09:46 PM Re: power amps [Re: SirQuack]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
One hand clapping and an echo.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#302551 - 04/20/10 12:27 AM Re: power amps [Re: SirQuack]
Gieseman Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 90
Loc: Utah
Pat Axiom speakers are very efficient and don't need a lot of power to make them sing the 80's at 95db will play loud with not much power. I have the 22's, vp100, qs8's in my bedroom setup with an Integra 90 watt per channel 2,100 cuft room and they play very loud and clean. Where an amp comes into play, just my two cents is when you are driving speakers with a sensitivity of 85-86db that is when you need some power to make them sing. But by all means if you want to get an amp, then get an amp. I love my separates in my theater room.


Edited by Gieseman (04/20/10 12:47 AM)
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#302595 - 04/20/10 01:43 PM Re: power amps [Re: Gieseman]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I ran Axiom's A1400 with my 3808 acting as the pre/pro and the differences I heard were noticeable, especially when the volume was turned up. I was also able to notice a slight improvement in over all sound quality at lower volumes, especially bass notes. The question is did I notice enough improvement to buy the A1400? For me the answer is yes, even my wife said she would endorse such a purchase............... when I can justify spending that kind of money for a slight improvement in SQ, so this might happen when my kids are finished with schooling and the house is paid off etc. Do I feel I am missing out, not in the least. My 3808 on it's own sounds wonderful.

Just remember the Law of Diminishing returns, it is most appropriate when it comes to home theater/audio.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#302597 - 04/20/10 01:49 PM Re: power amps [Re: jakewash]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Dollar for dollar, I guess that's why a lot of people are trying pro amps.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#302599 - 04/20/10 01:55 PM Re: power amps [Re: Adrian]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
That is what made me look into them, as well as those little M2200's from Outlaw.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#302609 - 04/20/10 03:21 PM Re: power amps [Re: jakewash]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
John always makes it a point to let those who are looking into power amps know that there is zero scientific data to prove that there should be any sort of difference in SQ between amp A and amp B no matter if amp A costs $50 dollars and amp B costs $10,000 dollars. And I'm glad he does make sure to issue that disclaimer everytime a newbie comes on here asking about amps and where to get the best one and so on and so forth because in a debate of scientific facts, he's absolutely right. And it would be wrong of those of us who do own amps, or are pro-amp people to recommend amps without letting them know that in essence they might just be wasting their money in purchasing such equipment.

However, no matter what the scientific data tells us, a large majority of people who have bought amps will tell you they prefer the sound over certain other amps. I liken this to religion. There is absolutely zero scientific data to prove that there is any sort of God or omnipotent spirit running around in the heavens listening to our prayers. However, walk into any church in the country and you will find someone who will tell you that before they believed in God they were empty souls with a void in their lives that they could not fill... and that the day they let Jesus/Allah/Buda or whom ever else they believe in, into their lives, they were forever changed. They will tell you of that void being filled, and a feeling of complete Zen coming over them once they found religion. How can this be without any scientific data to support it? That question has been asked since religion itself was born. Non-believers have all sorts of theories ranging from the power of the mind giving that feeling to individuals who 'think' its Jesus entering their bodies, all the way down to writing those scenario's off to slight mental retardation. Either way you slice it, there will always be two camps, those who believe, and those who don't.

Same thing goes for people who prefer external amplification to the amplification that is included in a reciever. You will never convince every pro amp owner that an all-in-one reciever can give you the exact same performance as their mono-blocks give them no matter how many blind listening tests you throw at them, or even INCLUDE them in. Their belief in their external power amp is unfailing. Ditto for the other camp. No matter how many amp's you bring over to demo against their reciever to prove there is a difference, they won't hear any improvement. Their belief in solid state amps being equal is also unfailing.

So then since nobody will ever 'win' the argument concerning SQ, the real question becomes, is it a waste of money to buy separate amps? Now that there are several reputable amplifier companies selling well made amps at very affordable prices, I feel the playing field has been leveled considerably. You no longer have to spend $5000 dollars to get a decent pre-pro and reliable amplifiers. These days you can do so for around the same amount of money you might spend on a decent high-power reciever. That is if we're talking apples to apples, as in getting separate amps that only push 70 - 120 watts per channel like the more popular recievers push.

IMO one of the major differences that separates the two philosophic camps is how conservative you are. While it may be undisputable that solid state amps play watt per watt equally, it is also indisputable that separates bring more flexibility to HT. If for instance you want to feed your M80's their rated power supply of 400 watts per speaker, you won't be able to find a reciever on the market that can accomplish this task. Therefore the more liberal you are, the more likely it is that you are a separates kind of guy.

"You don't need more than 1 or 2 watts to play at loud volume levels"... sure that's true, but what does that have to do with anything? The case can also be made that nobody needs more that one pair of pants and one shirt in their wardrobe, but who would pay any attention to that fact? People generally don't care about what they 'need', 'wants' play a much bigger role in the average consumers priority scale. The average US home is much bigger than anyone 'needs', the average car has more HP than anyone 'needs', and how many people actually stick to 2000 calories a day?

I don't push my M80's with 350 watts because they 'need' that much power, I just like it. But I would never rule out the fact that I feed my speakers goobs and goobs of power because I'm slightly mentally retarded either! \:\)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#302612 - 04/20/10 03:29 PM Re: power amps [Re: Micah]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5871
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I still think that it's the power output (whether amps available, or otherwise) that makes the most difference in sound quality. There is a difference between cheap amps and more powerful amps. I know because I've heard the difference. Just because someone says there isn't any scientific basis doesn't make it so. I think there probably is some scientific basis based on how much power is available to drive the speakers. jmho.

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#302614 - 04/20/10 04:30 PM Re: power amps [Re: CatBrat]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5871
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy

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