Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater power amps

Hello All, I have a question regarding power amps.Would they help in the over all sound of my home thearter? I have a onkyo 705 with m80's vp150 center, qs8's and 350 sub. I been reading in other forums that people who got a power amp made their home theater kick.What are some good amps for about 500 dollars?thanks to all of you for your help. How do put pictures onto the website? thanks again The sound sounds good but i feel it could be better?

Depends what you want to believe. Are you currently unhappy with the volumes you can reach with your current receiver? Are you hearing distortion of sound from clipping because your receiver does not have enough power?

If your current receiver has enough power for you to listen at the volumes you want, more available power won't do anything for you.

I am in a smallish room and don't listen crazy loud,so I have never even come close to using all the power my receiver can put out.

To use pictures here, create an account on a site like photobucket.com, then upload your pictures in a smallish size to it. It will provide you with a link you can copy here that begins with [img] and ends with [/img].

Look to the used market for some good amps in that price range, Anthem, Rotel, NAD, to name a few. You can also check out Outlaw Audio, they offer some nice amps and since you own M80s you could try Emotiva but ther have been a few with M80s having problems with Emotiva's amps and M80s, but there are a number that are using them with no problems, so YMMV.

I'm starting the like the idea of a seperate amp for another reason. I just got very nice av reciever - too much $ - with very nice internal amplifier(s). But what happens to that unit when its HDMI inputs/outputs are the equivilent of the VHS tape. ~that will probably be sooner than I care to think about right now.

An alternative would be to get a nice external amp - maybe a two channel for left and right speakers (or a pair of mono blocks for the same purpose). A good amp will last a long, long time.

So as recievers are replaced due to features, I'll be able to rely on the extrnal amp to power some or all of your speakers.

Thanks, dude!

This is one of the most valid points made towards power amps. Power supply has changed very, very little over the years as compared to other features in the AV world. Sure thre are digital amps now a days, but you can still power any speaker with the same amp you bought in the 70's as well. So when it comes time to upgrading, why repurchase the amps inside the reciever? If as you said you purchase a nice power amp (or two, three, etc...) and either a fairly economical reciever (read - not so beefy amp section) or a pre-pro, then when your reciever/pre-pro becomes outdated, as we in this hobby know all too well happens in the blink of an eye, then you don't have to make such a large investment to catch back up.

This was actually one of my main motivations towards my Emotiva purchase. My Denon was sadly out of date, and only falling further behind. When I purchased it I spent almost $2000 dollars so that I could have a pretty hefty amp section included. I didn't want to have to spend another $2000 bucks on another Denon just to get an extra 10 - 20 watts per channel when I could buy an amp that pushes 400 watts per channel for a quarter of that price and then look for either a much more reasonable reciever, or possibly a pre-pro.

I'm very happy with my choice.

I'm in a similar position.

I have a pair of M80s, VP150 Center, 2 QS8s side surrounds and an EP500 sub woofer.

I want to upgrade my 10 year old Yamaha receiver, and I've been looking at the Denon AVR4810CI. The problem with this is that it's not rated for 4 ohms so it's not going to power the M80s.

I was going to buy separate power amps at a later stage, but now I may be forced to act earlier due to the 4 ohm thing, then I'm looking at the following options

1. Emotiva XPA - 3 (Three channel rated at 300 Watts into 4 ohms) and then I'd run the fronts and center off this for a consistent front soundstage.

I read somewhere that there may be issues with the Emotivas and the M80s. I'm not sure if that's because the 300 Watts isn't enough hence:

2. Emotiva XPA - 2 (Two Channel rated at 500 watts into 4 ohms) and I'd just run the M80s with this.

Both of these options are much cheaper than anything else I've seen, but I'm slightly afraid of 2nd hand comments I've seen regarding people having problems

Any feedback?

2.

Incorrect.

It may or may not be rated to push 4 ohms, but it will. IMO there isn's another brand of reciever that pushes 4 ohm speakers better than Denon.

Yeah, unless you're going nutso loud in a large room, that receiver will be just fine with M80s.

Shady, I don't think the Denon 4810 is going to have ANY problem powering your M80's.

With the Emo's, it's not the wattage, it's the architecture. Do a forum search here - there are lots of threads. Generally, some people have had big-time issues with the XPA's, some people have had no issues with the XPA's and I don't remember anyone having trouble with the UPA's. I know that's counterintuitive.

I'd get the Denon and see how it goes. If you really feel like you're not getting what you need, look at used, high-quality amps from Krell, Rotel, Bryston, etc. in the 200wpc range.

Shady, the 4810 will run your M80s to levels you won't be able to listen to for long. I run my M80s with a 3808 as do many on this forum and non of us have problems. I even ran my M80s with a lowly 1804 and it could hit ~100db and not shut down. Denon is one of the manufacturers Axiom recommends to be paired with the M80s. So if you want the 4810 then by all means get it, it looks to be a very nice AVR.

Thanks so much for the feedback (so fast as well)

okay, I'm going to go ahead with the Denon purchase and defer the power amp decision to a later date.

I have the Emotiva XPA-3. First of all let me say that for the money I got far more with this amp than I ever dreamed I'd get. However, seeing as you have the M80's I cannot recommend this amp as there have been many issue's between the 'X' series amps and the 80's. I myself had a bit of difficulty making them play nicely, not nearly as bad as some had it, but enough that I can see why most M80 owners shy away from Emotiva.

Which is a shame because like I said, they really very nice amps at an outstanding price point. If you had the M60's I would not hesitate to recommend them.

And the good part is you can still get the amps at a later date if you think you can use them, as the 4810 has preouts

I've been running my M80's with the 3310ci and have had no problems to date <knock on wood>


Fully endorse the recommendation to go with a Denon AVR. I did and am quite happy despite my initial reservations.

Having separate power amps (I'm thinking 5 mono blocks of high quality) and upgrading the pre/pros sounds like an elegant solution for HT and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside like I do about most Hi-Fi/audiophile type pursuits.

Mmmmm, separates...

Giant avr receivers are kinda big, gimmicky and cheap looking. Even the higher end ones.

Axiom's A1400-8's are looking better and better for ultimate, clean punch and power.

Is this how they rope us in?

Sell us the speakers super cheap and then lure us into their world of expensive but powerful amplifiers... Hmmm...

Axiom Speakers: The Gateway Drug of Audioholics

shady - I think your notion that the Denon won't power 4 ohm speakers has something to do with the verbage that nearly ALL manufacturers use on their cases and spec sheets only for the purposes of satisfying the UL people.

still - the componenet idea, or AV receiver w/ amps, deserves some thought. In a few years, that Denon's not going have the dolby this or dolby that. Look at all the nice, nice av recievers on craig's list that don't have hdmi, etc. They're selling for pennies on the dollar.

If you're ok with that, no problem. But Micah's first post on page one is right on, in my opinion.

Thanks for all the posts!! i've read that buying a amp would help WITH the over all sound of the speakers.I'm still a newbie to home theater so please forgive me with the silly questions
thanks

Pat, I've also read those claims about a separate amplifier helping with the "over all sound" of the speakers, but no factual basis for them has been shown. On the contrary, both basic audio theory and the results of properly controlled blind listening tests indicate that a correctly designed modern amplifier, regardless of whether it's in a receiver or separate, amplifies transparently, with flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion within its designed limits. Nothing more than this is possible; there are no miracles which occur when the amplifier is put into a separate box. Unless the present power of your 705 is inadequate for safe listening levels at your position(highly unlikely), buying still more maximum power capacity is money wasted. Unused power headroom is simply that: unused.

shady, even $300 Denons will drive 80's to very loud, clear levels.

Pat, amplifiers amplify, that is it, they don't magically make the music sound better. The room characteristics and speakers would play a much bigger role in affecting the sound.

The advantage of having gobs of power may help at very high listening levels where extra headroom may be needed. However, most people would never listen at these levels in normal room sizes, and even a 100-120 watt receiver is more than enough to cover 15-20dB jumps.

Keep in mind, your Axioms only require a few watts to play very loud in most rooms.

One hand clapping and an echo.

Pat Axiom speakers are very efficient and don't need a lot of power to make them sing the 80's at 95db will play loud with not much power. I have the 22's, vp100, qs8's in my bedroom setup with an Integra 90 watt per channel 2,100 cuft room and they play very loud and clean. Where an amp comes into play, just my two cents is when you are driving speakers with a sensitivity of 85-86db that is when you need some power to make them sing. But by all means if you want to get an amp, then get an amp. I love my separates in my theater room.

I ran Axiom's A1400 with my 3808 acting as the pre/pro and the differences I heard were noticeable, especially when the volume was turned up. I was also able to notice a slight improvement in over all sound quality at lower volumes, especially bass notes. The question is did I notice enough improvement to buy the A1400? For me the answer is yes, even my wife said she would endorse such a purchase............... when I can justify spending that kind of money for a slight improvement in SQ, so this might happen when my kids are finished with schooling and the house is paid off etc. Do I feel I am missing out, not in the least. My 3808 on it's own sounds wonderful.

Just remember the Law of Diminishing returns, it is most appropriate when it comes to home theater/audio.

Dollar for dollar, I guess that's why a lot of people are trying pro amps.

That is what made me look into them, as well as those little M2200's from Outlaw.

John always makes it a point to let those who are looking into power amps know that there is zero scientific data to prove that there should be any sort of difference in SQ between amp A and amp B no matter if amp A costs $50 dollars and amp B costs $10,000 dollars. And I'm glad he does make sure to issue that disclaimer everytime a newbie comes on here asking about amps and where to get the best one and so on and so forth because in a debate of scientific facts, he's absolutely right. And it would be wrong of those of us who do own amps, or are pro-amp people to recommend amps without letting them know that in essence they might just be wasting their money in purchasing such equipment.

However, no matter what the scientific data tells us, a large majority of people who have bought amps will tell you they prefer the sound over certain other amps. I liken this to religion. There is absolutely zero scientific data to prove that there is any sort of God or omnipotent spirit running around in the heavens listening to our prayers. However, walk into any church in the country and you will find someone who will tell you that before they believed in God they were empty souls with a void in their lives that they could not fill... and that the day they let Jesus/Allah/Buda or whom ever else they believe in, into their lives, they were forever changed. They will tell you of that void being filled, and a feeling of complete Zen coming over them once they found religion. How can this be without any scientific data to support it? That question has been asked since religion itself was born. Non-believers have all sorts of theories ranging from the power of the mind giving that feeling to individuals who 'think' its Jesus entering their bodies, all the way down to writing those scenario's off to slight mental retardation. Either way you slice it, there will always be two camps, those who believe, and those who don't.

Same thing goes for people who prefer external amplification to the amplification that is included in a reciever. You will never convince every pro amp owner that an all-in-one reciever can give you the exact same performance as their mono-blocks give them no matter how many blind listening tests you throw at them, or even INCLUDE them in. Their belief in their external power amp is unfailing. Ditto for the other camp. No matter how many amp's you bring over to demo against their reciever to prove there is a difference, they won't hear any improvement. Their belief in solid state amps being equal is also unfailing.

So then since nobody will ever 'win' the argument concerning SQ, the real question becomes, is it a waste of money to buy separate amps? Now that there are several reputable amplifier companies selling well made amps at very affordable prices, I feel the playing field has been leveled considerably. You no longer have to spend $5000 dollars to get a decent pre-pro and reliable amplifiers. These days you can do so for around the same amount of money you might spend on a decent high-power reciever. That is if we're talking apples to apples, as in getting separate amps that only push 70 - 120 watts per channel like the more popular recievers push.

IMO one of the major differences that separates the two philosophic camps is how conservative you are. While it may be undisputable that solid state amps play watt per watt equally, it is also indisputable that separates bring more flexibility to HT. If for instance you want to feed your M80's their rated power supply of 400 watts per speaker, you won't be able to find a reciever on the market that can accomplish this task. Therefore the more liberal you are, the more likely it is that you are a separates kind of guy.

"You don't need more than 1 or 2 watts to play at loud volume levels"... sure that's true, but what does that have to do with anything? The case can also be made that nobody needs more that one pair of pants and one shirt in their wardrobe, but who would pay any attention to that fact? People generally don't care about what they 'need', 'wants' play a much bigger role in the average consumers priority scale. The average US home is much bigger than anyone 'needs', the average car has more HP than anyone 'needs', and how many people actually stick to 2000 calories a day?

I don't push my M80's with 350 watts because they 'need' that much power, I just like it. But I would never rule out the fact that I feed my speakers goobs and goobs of power because I'm slightly mentally retarded either!

I still think that it's the power output (whether amps available, or otherwise) that makes the most difference in sound quality. There is a difference between cheap amps and more powerful amps. I know because I've heard the difference. Just because someone says there isn't any scientific basis doesn't make it so. I think there probably is some scientific basis based on how much power is available to drive the speakers. jmho.

A different opinion.

Interesting, I don't see how this topic even remotely compares to believing in God, no matter how you slice it. Fact, Jesus did exist, study your history a little. You don't even have to use the Bible to prove that.

Danger Will Robinson! Danger Will Robinson!

(This reads as much more entertaining if you envision me waving my arms around all nilly-willy...)

We're the People's Front of Judea, the PFJ. No we're not, we're the Judean People's Front, the JPF.

I once tortured my dealer (no, not that one!) for weeks on end by "auditioning" power amps. I had plenty o' power, I just wanted (thought I needed) more. I used the same 3 tracks of program material for all of it. I'm way too embarassed to reveal those choices now, but it wasn't the songs I was listening to.

When it was all over (they still let me shop there, 30 years on),
I didn't have much that was definitive to show for my efforts.
The differences were mostly non-existant, except for slight colorations in very narrow ranges. Having had to transcribe recorded arrangements in college, I felt pretty confident about my ears at the time.

And tubes were something a roadband was always short by one, so after I moved to solid state @ home, I never looked back.

Ultimately, in a non-A/B switching test, I knew I would not be able to aurally recall those differences once I went home, cashless. We don't possess that kind of aural recall, nor do we for color perception, either.

So, you just have to give in at some stage, point your finger, open your wallet and pick one.

Jesus Christo mio! How did God get into this thread????

Frank Lloyd Wright said that God is in the details, but that only makes it harder to scrape Him out of the crevices.

I have envisioned that in the past, but less like a robot and more like those inflatable tube "men" @ used car lots.

I suggest that we drop religion from this thread for obvious reasons. So, no more religion.

[LOTR]"YOU SHALL NOT PASS". [/LOTR]

If you could actually promise that, you'd get my vote for anti-Christ. Hell, no. Lemme be your campaign mgr.!

While spinning madly in your square room? ::giggles::

[sister mary elephant] thank you [/sister mary elephant]

Lol, I guess I should have my head checked for tying religion into this discussion. But I wasn't so much talking about the belief in God as I was talking about the accounts people give about feeling God enter their lives when they open their heart to Jesus and what not. I've heard people explain it almost like a heroin hit entering the blood stream, filtering throughout their entire body, taking every worry away, and feeling the spirit of God enter their body. There is no scientific data that can prove Jesus has entered your body, yet millions of followers will swear they've felt his presence.

My analogy was that to me this seems similar to those who hook up a McIntosh amplifier to their speakers and then swear they can hear differences in the music. Differences that can't be measured by a microphone, differences that scientific data shows does not exist, but they will swear by it anyway.

Now whether or not THE Jesus Christ who was born over 2000 years ago and walked this earth was the son of God or not is a subject I'm not about to attempt to discuss here. And indeed wouldn't have anything to do with this thread in any way shape or form. It was the similarity of those that have some sense of something that science can not seem to measure that I was referring to, not religion as a whole.

well I think the ponit was lost, there is no question about price ponits and just buying a name Bryston, Mcintosh are great if you have a speaker that needs that push but they cost a lot are they worth it? I don't think all electronics are created equal, there are things that my Integra receiver does better than my Rotel processor and vice versa as far as power 90 watts 120 watts not much difference on axiom speakres the difference is the control unit Integra/Rotel as far as one playing louder no, movies or music no. Now my ATC SCM 40's the Rotel did not push them it clipped the Rotel. I went with a MMC-5 @ 220 watts per channel and now the ATC's sing and no clipping and the sound yeah way better, so yes there is a place and a need for seperate power supply. Not all speakers are created equal either, that is what makes the Axioms great you don't need a lot of power to make them roll as far as the war on Receiver or Seperates I think it depends on what makes you happy I enjoy both besides it all about the sound and the enjoyment of music not the equipment, this hobby is as addicting as hookers and blow there is always better out there so enjoy.

Amen!

STATUS:
Can of worms: OPENED

Of course any reference to a belief in the Creator of the universe and you are cautioned you are talking about Worms.

Thanks KCarlie.

2x5, you have no knowledge whatsoever of my religious beliefs, practices, or inclinations, and I'll thank you not to make any assumptions about them.

Also, I'll damn well post what I like, when I like. Feel free to set me to ignore if you don't like my posts.

Well my intentions were innocent enough. I mean it's not like I put up a poll asking everyone to vote on whether they believe Jesus was black, white or somewhere inbetween?


That's the sort of post that opens up a can of those worms off of 'Dune'!

Dude...

You have spawned the mother of all derails. I bow to your god-like power of derailment...

you guys are funny thanks for all the humor now all we need is bigrig or whoever to chime in

I felt this way when I got my iPhone.

That's because they coated the iPhone with a layer of angel dust.

It's a fact, I looked it up.

Only here could an amplifier thread, that was derailed by god, end up with angel dust. Cwazy!

Dude. God doesn't derail. That's Satan's work.

Funny. The long-timers here seem to indicate that derailment is Rick F's domain. And he appears to have no shotage of minions.

Haven't seen Rick in a few days. So God is filling in for him in the meantime.

That's right, Ricks shoes are THAT big!

That is why his handle used to be brotherbob, but then again you weren't around back in the good ole days.

I had forgotten about that.

His post count could be much higher. [nods sagely, looks around furtively, then runs away]

I'll leave the gospel to people more worthy, but will lodge my ever faithful vote for the benefit of Pixie Dust - i.e., that better sound from more powerful amps.

One: it is not at all like religion. I don't believe my pro amp sounds better than my Denon. I think that because when I listen i don't hear evidence of clipping well before the scientific db levels say they should be there. In other words, it sounds better. I can A.....B, and do (but it takes some time) and clearly notice cymbalance and other small issues from my Denon on certain notes. That's not faith, that's just a lifetime of trusting my God given senses.

Two: volume is key. JohnK like his music lower than mine. I like to feel music, horns, drums, acoustic guitar, whatever. I get that at around 100db, with spikes well above that (hello 108). The rubber meets the road on this issue when John's A/B testers are treated to music that requires lots of power to meet a peak. Then the $12 JVC does not keep up with the Bryston.

Don't trust me, read Alan's technical articles. Music can easily defeat your Onkyo trying to hit certain notes at certain volumes. Axiom does not do a lot of posturing, and I doubt they would invest the R&D time to develop a 1400 watt amp if a $50 Sony would do just fine.

My pro amp rolls along without issue because it has over 500 watts and defeats the Law of Diminishing Returns because I got it for $500. So I keep the 10 year old Denon and get the power I wanted. Saved $1500 on a new AVR.

In short, JohnK is right, and you should buy a separate amp.

A fellow over at AVS is in the process of testing the new Peavey IPR and Behringer EPX amps with the IPR being tested first, for anyone interested(thanks FredK). Unfortunately the tester(chasw98) and his wife had an auto accident which has put the results back a few days on the IPR. Thankfully, it sounds like they're ok, btw.

Thought I'd post for anyone curious about these amps, I'll add a link once there's some results.

Long been pondering...reciever or pre/pro/power amp combo. Had always wanted a Rotel RMB-1075, but a matching THX pre/pro eludes me. Got tired of searching, and eventually settled on an Onkyo 805. As a bonus, the 805 was actually more powerful than the 1075 based on professional lab measurements and reviews. Saved a bundle too! Hit two birds with one stone, so am now fully THXéd...except for my subs.

The Onk is rated a tad more but I would be willing to bet the Rotel has more usable power.

If so, with the $ I saved on the Oink, they can keep it...hehehe.

Rottie
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/amplifiers/32/index4.html

Oink
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/208bwonk/index5.html

I'll side with Rick on that, but it sounds like you found something that's making you smile. And that's what it's all about!

That's why, everytime I'm trying to decide on a piece of electronics to buy, I ask myself, "WWJD"???

Looks like the Onk fared pretty good in the lab.

Nice to see another eD owner on the forum.

I like the separate amps myself and am also a proponent of the higher listening levels the sound is cleaner group ... seems like I just never listen to any higher levels too much anymore.

Ken ... the instigator.

Speaking of amps, I just love the look of these.

Wow...

Power consumption
Standby: 225 W
Idle: 300 W

It's a winter amp. No need for heating system. In the summer... it might require a triple air conditionner!

Lol, this is similar to my living room. In the fall we don't even need to turn the heat on until it gets below 40 degree's outside. The heat generated by all the HT equipment while listening to music, as well as our track lighting, does the trick just fine.

Considering they cost as much as a new furnace they might as well add some heat

My HT is in the same room with the thermostat. It automatically cuts back the furnace about 30 minutes into viewing anything.

(760+ Watts from the plasma TV makes too good of a heater.)

I envy you guys needing heaters, here in the Philippines we need A/C or we roast!

Until you experience -30 temps.

Well, I get that in bed with the wifey

SSSSHHHHHHH!!!! Don't ruin it Jay, this may be the first time in the history of civilization that someone from the Phillipines has EVER envied a person living in Alberta, Canada for their climate. Don't talk him out of it, let it happen... when will you ever get an opportunity like this again?

Really? I have 2 Filipino friends that migrated to Canada and absolutely love the climate and diverse wildlife there. I also had a Canadian friend over for dinner a couple of days ago and he absolutely hates our humidity over here. Oh well, grass is always greener as they say...peace!

Wow, I was just kidding around, but that is quite surprising I must say. Don't get me wrong I thnk Western Alberta is absolutely gorgeous in the summer, what with the mountians and all the beautiful colors from the different crops, etc... But my 5 years there went a little something like this : 3 months of really nice spring weather followed by 9 months of some of the most brutal winter weather known to man. Perfect climate for up and coming Hockey players, not so great for motorcycle enthusiasts like myself though.

But then again I lived there in the 70's, perhaps that was a bad time to live in Alberta? I would love to have a summer home there if I were a rich man, but I'll skip the 4 to 6 FEET of snow in the winter thank you very much.

It would seem someone used to a climate like the Philipeans wouldn't know what to do with themselves in Alberta in January. But I guess it can happen.

This was funny!!

Those temperatures ARE more common when you use the term "wifey."

It would seem someone used to a climate like the Philipeans wouldn't know what to do with themselves in Alberta in January. But I guess it can happen. [/quote]

Well, if it helps, I WAS born in Washington, so maybe the craving for cold is in my blood

Got MUCH colder than that when I got the pair of eD's without consent

Much more dignity in asking forgiveness than permission...

Screw WAF!!!! We da man!!!

I hope she doesn't read this though...eeekkk!!

Don't worry, if she reads this thread you'll be the first to know by the frost bite left on your hand after touching her with it.

More like SubZero in the movie Mortal Kombat

Washington isn't really close to what we experience, that is more like British Columbia weather. You are just missing actually having seasons.

Micah, we seem to be getting winter for 3 months(Dec - Feb) now and not as much snow as you seem to be remembering, followed by spring for 4 months, followed by summer for 2 months and then Fall which goes through much of the same weather patterns as Spring, which ranges through all the season typical weather from hot summer to cold winter.