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#333432 - 01/04/11 03:02 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
So in other words, all the "good stuff" happened "back then" and everything from today is "crap".



If you say so... I didn't!

I'm hoping for a new musical/artistic renaissance for fudge sake! But, yeah.. just look at the facts. Reality supports my argument, not yours...

Let's see if in 20 years, all this "classic" "culture" that happened from 2000 to 2010 is being discussed with reverence and praise like the late 60's and early 70's popular culture. grin

Hell, half the stuff that's "happening" now is crappy remakes of older stuff. Tron Legacy? Kanye West samples King Crimson? Wow... Innovative.

I would argue that that the arts, and all other aspects of popular culture, have peaks and valleys. If you look at Paris in the 20's you can see that there was something magical and innovative happening then that has yet to be repeated (or bested) and very few decades in the 20th century have brought any radical progress to art forms like that time period did. That's why the 60's/70's are so unique. A high water mark. I didn't claim to see into the future. There's still time to have an upturn in creative progress, but the past 20 years have shown a steady decline in all of the major art forms.

Sorry, but if younger peeps really want popular culture that has depth, meaning and impact, then they better come up with some art that matters. That takes skill, practice and the ability to focus. Try harder!

Too many wannabe "rock stars" looking to be famous (with their very own reality show!) who can't even fu#king play 'Louie Louie' competently!

Yes, there is still some great music being created, but innovative and enduring most of it is not!

You can mock the "dinosaurs" all you want, but they will endure long after Kanye/Lady Ga Ga/Nickleback et al are forgotten.

Don't blame older people cause you suck!

It seems the majority of modern music is just a pathetic echo of the past or a horrible auto-tuned vision of the future.

I'm not exactly happy about this situation myself. I still have hope though, but young people just "starting out" need to become more focused and disciplined about their craft.

Learn from and respect the past! Pay some dues and practice, practice, practice!

And write some good songs...

It would also be wise to reject the corporate packaged "fake" rebellion/celebrity culture that is being sold to you. Reject it like the hippies and the punks and the early rappers did! You have so many amazing, modern tools available to you. Get it together outside the current system!


Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
This sums up how every "older" generation views the trappings of the "younger" generation. wink It's a generational thing. That's just sort of how it goes as you get old.




Bullsh#t! My significant other is at the ripe "old" age of 23 and she (as well as most of her peers that have any taste) can tell the difference in quality between Nickleback and Hendrix. Most of the cool kids listen to classic rock that's way older than them. Why is that?

Why are the Beatles still outselling most new bands? Is it because us oldsters keep buying the recordings over and over? Or is it because there really is a rise and fall in cultural progress? You really think your current "trappings" are better than what preceded it? Just look at the charts of every decade. It's so obvious that some quality control issues are at hand.



Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
The 1960's may have catalyzed it, but it's been going on forever. Talking to my then 96-year-old grandmother a few years ago, she still vividly remembered how much her parents disapproved of the speakeasies, bobbed haircuts, revealing clothes, and heaven-forbid; jazz-music of the 1920's that she and her friends enjoyed so very much.



I'm not disapproving anything that's current, I'm openly mocking and deriding it as (mostly) puerile, uninspired and pathetic.

Big difference there Pete.
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#333433 - 01/04/11 03:06 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: medic8r]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: medic8r
I see the mag says, "The making of a music legend." Legends ain't what they used to be, eh?!



That's what I'm saying!!!




grin
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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#333434 - 01/04/11 03:16 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: audiosavant]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
I am absolutely fascinated by the discussion, and want to sincerely thank you all for making me think. Maybe later, I'll have something to add.
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#333435 - 01/04/11 03:22 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10886
Loc: Central NH
But right now, he's involved in his Ke$ha CD....
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#333438 - 01/04/11 03:48 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: MarkSJohnson]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
That made me laugh laugh
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#333441 - 01/04/11 04:04 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: MarkSJohnson]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6390
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Another aspect of this that has been hinted at but not discussed in detail is the technological aspect of this phenomenon. With all the I.T. and other tech-savvy people that frequent this forum, I figured I'd open that can of worms.

In the old day, to be in a band, you had to pick up an instrument and learn to play it. Or you had to be able to sing without the benefits of Autotune or other studio trickery. Charlatans like Britney Spears would have been realized immediately as having no true vocal talent. Granted, there were the occasional music industry creations like the Monkees, but even they could play instruments and sing.

Back in the day, if a band covered a tune, it generally did so by playing in it's own style and adding something to the tune. I'm thinking of Van Halen's covers (Dancing in the Street, Pretty Woman, etc) as a prime example.

Skip ahead to the present, or, say, 1995 - present, and anyone with a computer can sample a song, twist a couple of knobs, and say they've made a new single. Now, I have enjoyed some modern covers, but to me the vast majority of them seem artificial and trashy. I know that's a matter of taste, but I personally don't like that kind of "progress". The ease of sampling and the entitled attitude that many samplers take really chaps my a$$. There's too many people not giving credit, acting like they have the right to sample anything, regardless of copyright, and acting like they've really created something significant when 98% of the work was done by the original artist. At least when Van Halen played a cover, they called it a cover.

On the positive side, technology has made it easier than ever to create music, so there is at least the chance that more good music will be made. It's just hard for me to filter out the crap and find the good stuff.
_________________________
"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#333451 - 01/04/11 06:07 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: medic8r]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
Doc you make some very excellent and interesting points but actually we can lay blame to Adolph Rickenbacker way back in the 1920s and 30s for inventing the electric guitar, he started it all and we've only progressed from there. smile
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Our Room

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#333452 - 01/04/11 06:48 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: audiosavant]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Wow. Quite a response you've typed up there, 'savant.

My point was that neither you nor I can judge what is "art" and what is "noise". And no one knows what will, or will not, be remembered in 10, 20, 50 years' time.

Vivaldi was a rock-star in his day. He was pretty popular. Then he died. Unlike Mozart, Vivaldi's works were mostly forgotten until they were rediscovered two-hundred years later. From the standpoint of the 1800's, Vivaldi would have been as much of a flash-in-the-pan as Nickleback will (hopefully) be in 50 years. Yet today, Vivaldi is "one of the greats". And that's my point.

Quote:

...but the past 20 years have shown a steady decline in all of the major art forms.


Really? Because I know a few Art History PhD's that would disagree with you. The rise of digital media has produced an explosion of Art that's unlike anything the world has ever seen. Of course it's not all wonderful. But that's the way it works. There were a lot of Parisian artists in the 20's and American & British musicians in the 60's who were pretty awful. And History has forgotten them.

I'm not saying that Nickleback or Kanye West is the next Vivaldi. God help us. But what I am saying is that only the jaded cynic has the view that, "Art is dead".

Quote:

It seems the majority of modern music is just a pathetic echo of the past or a horrible auto-tuned vision of the future.

So says you. Look beyond the FM dial. Look beyond American Idol. There are tens-of-thousands of artists out there - real artists - who are creating new, innovative, or just plain good music. And that's part of the problem. There's so much to choose from. Sure, there's a lot of mass-market crap. Tons. But it's just like there's a McDonalds or an Applebees on every corner. People eat there because it's easy and it's what they like. Music is the same. There's a lot of mass-market noise out there because that's what many consumers want, and the record companies keep shoveling it in. But it doesn't mean that you must have a BigMac for dinner. wink Look deeper. There's great stuff (even well-mastered stuff) out there.

Peace. Really.

And for the record, I'm 33. I listen primarily to Jazz & Classical, though occasionally I do enjoy a little Daft Punk. cool


Edited by PeterChenoweth (01/04/11 06:53 PM)
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#333468 - 01/04/11 09:13 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: tomtuttle]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Maybe later, I'll have something


I had mine already.
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#333575 - 01/05/11 06:20 PM Re: The Day The Music Died Or Why New Music Sucks! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
audiosavant Offline
devotee

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 311
Loc: Worldwide
Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
Wow. Quite a response you've typed up there, 'savant.


Thank you good sir... wink Sorry if I came off a bit too... too !

You actually make some valid points. I just think we are misunderstanding each other.

Perhaps I should clear my "point" up a bit!

I'm not actually arguing at you, but with you Peter... grin



Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
My point was that neither you nor I can judge what is "art" and what is "noise". And no one knows what will, or will not, be remembered in 10, 20, 50 years' time.



Very true... art is (to some) very subjective. wink

I do believe that there is great "art" (music, cinema, literature, etc) still being made, it's just that there really isn't a culture that is (currently) popular that is supporting it at this time. I think (and hope!) that this will change. The things I wrote about rock/pop music can be applied (with various changes/alterations) to almost all the things I love. Movies mostly suck now. CGI is the auto-tune of movies. Television is beyond shallow. Nothing of merit that's being "produced" by "artists" (even the good stuff) is recognized or lauded because of the dumbing down of the masses (I'm mainly talking about America, since that's where my parents had sex and where I was born). There is no longer a valid outlet for the dissemination of these great works of "art" or even a community/culture to support the growth and development of said "art". Attention spans are just too short nowadays. People have become post-literate and are way too deluged with electronic diversions that are the equivalent of solipsistic onanism for the mind. Where's the soul? Nothing seems to "connect" on an emotional or visceral level. Why is that? Why are the majority of young people content with this situation? Are they so brainwashed by corporate propaganda that they think that this is the golden age? Reality just does not support that view at all. Just look around you! Do the youth (whose time it is to seize) have no fresh ideas to bestow upon the world? Are they so fu#king lame and disconnected that they themselves have nothing to offer that's new and innovative and, most importantly, their own?

I mean, if conformity and aesthetic conservatism are the "in" thing now and Kanye/Ke$ha/Bieber are the high water mark then, they (the young), are doomed and pathetic and I truly feel sorry for their lot. Maybe their future offspring will realize how expendable and vapid this culture has become and will rebel (like the kids did in the 60's) and come up with exciting new music (and art) that will be considered classic someday!

We are just deluged now by mediocre stuff. The next Hendrix or Beatles are probably out there right now but unless we sniff it out like a truffle, we miss out. There are too many fragmented "communities" for a real "culture" to thrive and great new music seems to makes no real impact in the here and now. That's sad, because the economy of scale is shrinking for these potentially great artist to really become truly great and make a decent living in this hostile environment.

Do you realize how many hours the Beatles played live before they even recorded in the studio? I work with a lot of young bands and artists and the majority have no understanding of paying dues. They are more interested in the fame part, not the creating something worthwhile to become famous part.

Celebrity culture has overtaken substance, and a lot of younger peeps seem to blindly accept this. That's my biggest beef!

But I'm mainly lamenting about how the structure to support and promote the arts has died and how that affects the mainstream.



Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
Vivaldi was a rock-star in his day. He was pretty popular. Then he died. Unlike Mozart, Vivaldi's works were mostly forgotten until they were rediscovered two-hundred years later...




I'm still leaning about classical and the history of symphonic music (I know much more about late 20th century art forms!), but isn't Vivaldi still considered a bit like Yngwie Malmsteen? All flash and no substance?

And classical music has become codified too. Most symphonies are being meagerly paid to saw through the "classics" that are as done to death as Stairway To Heaven! There is a lot of very great modern (i.e. 20th century symphonic) that is ignored because of lack of education and, again, no $ for it to thrive. So classical music is kinda in the same situation, only the old masters are played and heard and no new music that is created is being appreciated or performed.



Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
There are tens-of-thousands of artists out there - real artists - who are creating new, innovative, or just plain good music. And that's part of the problem. There's so much to choose from. Sure, there's a lot of mass-market crap. Tons. But it's just like there's a McDonalds or an Applebees on every corner. People eat there because it's easy and it's what they like. Music is the same. There's a lot of mass-market noise out there because that's what many consumers want, and the record companies keep shoveling it in. But it doesn't mean that you must have a BigMac for dinner. wink Look deeper. There's great stuff (even well-mastered stuff) out there.



I agree with every word of that Peter, but that is my entire argument!!! For a short while we had a popular culture that thrived, not hidden away for just those of us in the know, and we were surrounded by music that inspired others to create original and great sounds themselves. Now it's become lopsided to favor the shallow and expendable. It's hard to blame the consumers when they are force fed plastic crap 24/7.

I truly hope that a renewed interest in diversity and quality will happen to all the arts!



Originally Posted By: PeterChenoweth
Peace. Really.



Peace and love! I think we are much closer in agreement than you thought. Sorry if I come off a little hyperbolic and aggressive, that's just my obnoxious style.

The one thing I do know is that, here on the Axiom forum, we all have diverse "tastes" and are passionate about music and sound.

I'm just saddened by the general population's seemingly lack of passion (and I do mostly blame the "media") and concern for quality.






smile
_________________________
"Art is making something out of nothing and selling it."
---Frank Zappa


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