I have decided to try a new center because the vp150's off axis response is terrible in my room. Everyone that sits on the side couches are always saying to "turn it up" or "what did they say". I would like to stick with Axiom but can't fit a vp180. So after lots of reading and asking some questions here I am leaning towards an m2. The off axis response should be better with a vertical design. My only worry is if the little m2 can hold its own with the m80's. Here is the design mod I have come up with. The M2 would be on a litte shelf that would overhang from 1-2 inches. Any other ides would be welcome. Thanks

Nice drawing!

I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work out very well.

That's a very elegant installation. I like it a lot. My wife won't let me have any mission-style furniture. Are those HG M80's?

Thanks Yes they are HG Cherry. I built the stand to match the wood trim in our home. Luckily my wife goes along with my idea's. It helps to be a draftsman and a carpenter.

Chet (and anyone else):
For someone who needs serious off-axis response in their room, has consideration ever been given to two M2s toed out from each other? I don't know if this would get weird-sounding with someone in the center of the room?

Is your center channel bumped up a few dB, like many people do?

Have you tried going "phantom", to see if your L/R speakers alone would provide better off-axis response for people sitting to the side?

And yes, beautiful setup!

I assume you've tried the whole pulling-out-the-vp150-about-an-inch thing?

I have the same off-axis problem with my VP100, and I'm a little disappointed in the tonal quality of it. I'm using M22's. I plan on ordering the M2 for center and mount it on the wall under the TV with an FMB that Axiom also sells. I'm hoping this will correct both of my problems.

Great looking install.
I think the M2 will do well - definitely better than the VP150 based on my personal experience. I recently switched to an M2. However I do not have the M80's so can't comment 1st hand on M2 matching M80's. In my install the M2 does better matching my M22's than the 150 did however.
Besides, with the 30 day guarantee you really have nothing to lose to at least try it.

I do have room for 2 m2's but didn't know if that would help or hurt things. The 150 is on a sliding shelf sticking out 1"

S'what I figured.

Haven't tried a fantom center. Maybe tonight I'll see how that sounds.

Worked really well for me when I was sitting DIRECTLY in front of the TV. Moving just a little to the side destroyed it.

Isn't that the reason he wanted to switch to an M2? Because the VP150 didn't work correctly if not sitting in the center.

Hi turbo,

When I looked at the photo at the beginning of this thread, I thought to myself, well, you do have your VP150 kind of buried in that equipment stand. I think interference and boundary effects from the neighboring equipment might well affect the lateral dispersion of the VP150. Following up kcarlile's comment, try pulling the center out a bit and see if it improves anything.

All speakers function better in free space. This, of course, makes placement of center channel speakers a real pain in the butt. In my own case, when I placed a VP150 in the equipment stand below my flat screen, I hated the sound. Moving it to a metal shelf supported by the TV reduced coloration and improved intelligibility.

And no, with all the talk of using an M2 as a center, which I've tried, it will not keep up with the M80s at higher SPL levels and may sound strained. After all, the 150 has five drivers and the M2 just two. At higher playback levels, the VP150 is much better equipped to deliver clean, high-volume dialog.

For aesthetic reasons, I doubt you'll want to move your center to less-encumbered placement above the screen or stand. There might be an arrangement of dual M2s that could work for you. I'll think about it.

Cheers,
Alan

That is how the vp150 acts in my room.

It seems I've seen this somewhere, but what about a center design that has speakers pointing in 3 directions forward, and slightly off to the sides, and maintaining the horizontal design?

Strange. What I get with my VP100 (not ideally placed, probably not set up right) is that it overpowers the other speakers, so EVERYTHING sounds like it's coming from the center, even off axis.

Well, Ken, you DO have it bumped up 26dB....

Good point Alan, thanks for making it. That's one aspect that I hadn't considered though it's obvious now that you mention it.
Out of curiosity and education for the rest of us, what was your experience like using the M2 as a center channel (aside from not keeping up with the M80's).

Turbo,

I looked again at the photo. What is on top of your stand? Is there a flat surface you could try putting the VP150 on, angled down a bit? It should improve dialog intelligibility and from the photo, the center would still be close enough to the screen to anchor dialog in the center.

Using a "phantom" center is hopeless. You can't adjust the center channel level and off-axis the center will shift to the nearest M80-- highly undesirable.

Alan

Two m2's would fit like this ....

When I tried that with my mains (side by side x 2 sets) it sounded really bad. When I aligned them vertically (see signature link), it sounded really good.

I kinda figured it would be weird... looks cool though (dual centers)

No for aesthetic reasons. Plus I like to make it difficult

What about just one itsy-bitsy M2 up on top and one below in the space where the 150 now resides?

Two M2s down there won't improve things.

Alan

Get the top one in a wood grain/color combo that matches the cabinet.

The side by side dual centers gave me a 'phasy' center when I tried with my M22's when I listened off axis. I would guess this was due to some comb filtering or some other anomaly of having horizontal drivers close together, it just sounded a little weird.

Personally I think the M2 keeps up with the M80's quite well, just not for extremely loud play back levels. When I tried it out, the M2 was no worse than the VP150 was for anything I watched and with it's better off axis it was the better of the 2 in my one spot that has an issue with the VP150, and I suspect moving up to the 180 wouldn't solve the drop in off axis playback levels you are encountering, but YMMV as the extra width of the 180 does help spreadout the sound better.

Something you could try is angling the 150 slightly toward the off axis position (assuming it is on one side and not both) to see if that helps. This is what I am now using to alleviate my one seat that has the low center level issues, it didn't take much of an adjustment.

Chet, have you bumped your center up several dB? I haven't seen an answer to that (unless I missed it somewhere).

I could start with one and see how it works. Then add another if needed I guess. The HG Cherry matches quite well

Yes I have tried that with minimal results. The off axis is maybe 1/4 to 1/2 lower in volume than center.

I can get the m2 in HG Cherry for 158.00. I think at that price I should just order one and give it a try.

Dang, that is really inexpensive.

That was my exact reasoning a few months ago! Glad I tried as it works well for my setup.

I wish I could find a way for it to look less ridiculous to have a vertical M2 above the TV. All you guys with your beautiful home theaters are making me think about a projector and a VP180. Which I seriously STILL can't adapt to my current house.

Yup. Agreed, Tom.

I wish I could make a m80 work

With your skills, you probably could.

I wanted to see what the shipping time frame was.. So I moved the m2 from my wish list($158) to my cart but when I did the price jumped to $193 Am I missing something? I guess thats still a good price.

From the wish list; Single M2 Bookshelf Speaker
Color: High Gloss Cherry
Qty: 1
Price: $158.00 USD

I think I found a glitch in the "customize yours" section.

The $35 increase is for the hg cherry but does not show up in the wish list.

$158 is for standard (stock) finish.
$193 is for HG Cherry.

Looks like you beat me to it.

If you have a min. try putting one in your wish list and see if the price changes.

It won't let me save anything under wish list. I keep getting a screen to setup a new account instead.

I worked through that, and the price dropped back to 158 like you said.

I got the same results with dual M22s



I also agree with this from what I’ve listened to.

I have two M2s, one above and one below the display, and it works very well for me. The two keep up with my M80 very well, even at high volumes and dialog is centered on the display no matter where in the room you sit.

Would you be willing to put an itty bitty M2 above your TV or are aesthetics that much of an issue?

Edit: I wonder if the M2s ability to keep up has something to do with room size? It might work well in a small space, but not so well in a larger room.

Fred, are there pictures of this glory somewhere?

I would think that 2 M2's should be similarly capable compared to one VP150.

Early ManCave home decor and all...

Super Mario 3?

You would be correct, also listening distance can be added to the equation.

Chet, this suddenly quite long thread probably doesn't really need a comment from me, but I'll say that my experience is that a small, but high quality vertical center speaker, such as the M2, gives excellent results. There's no need to be concerned about "keeping up" with large tower mains unless those mains are being played at a dangerously loud level. If so, "turn the damn things down!".

Thanks for all the great responses and ideas. I will post some pics when I get it setup

Is there much of a difference between the VP150v 2 and the v3? I've thought about upgrading my 150 but don't have room for a 180 and no room for verticals. My vp150 is ok but could be a bit better so wondering how the v3 would compare?

I believe the difference would be minimal.

Well I ordered an M2HGC last week so I should have some thoughts in a week or so. Along with some new pics.
Fist toy I have bought myself in a long time.....besides juggling props.

juggling while listing to my axiom setup is always fun

So I got the new M2HGC set up on a temporary shelf and
re-calibrated everything(couple questions). My daughter was watching with us so we watched toy story 3 . The off axis response is so so so much better than the vp150. I could actually hear dialog cleanly on the side couch. Its going to take some more movies to really get an idea of how its going to sound all around, but so far I think I made a good decision. Its funny how tinny it looks next to the m80's.

My question is on my processor when I start playing pink noise through each speaker and setting them to 75db. Is there a certain volume to start at? My adjustments were within + or - 3 of 0.0 in the setup so I didn't have to move them to much. I can't change the master volume when I am in the manual setup mode. So in order to "start" at a certain volume I would have to exit out and volume up then go back into setup and check it..maybe thats not necessary I don't know.
Also why is 75db used?

I wish my m80's had the new magnetic grills....SO NICE!

Very good, Chet. In calibrating manually(I'd suggest using auto-calibration when available)most{all?)receivers put out a test tone that's 30dB below the 105dB maximum "reference"level that movie soundtracks are supposed to be recorded at. So, if that tone measures 75dB at a convenient reference point(often 0 on the scale, but not necessarily)then the setup is properly calibrated to play the sound at the reference level when the volume is set to 0 or whatever the reference point for the calibration was. For home use the reference level is generally considered too high for a steady diet and a setting 10 or more dB lower is common, resulting in a maximum level on peaks of no more than 95dB. The low frequency effects(LFE)occasionally present during movies are in a separate channel usually assigned to the sub, if available, and have a maximum level 10dB higher than the regular soundtrack.

It can also be noted that music recordings have no standard "reference" level and can vary widely in the volume setting required for a given loudness level.

does anyone know the reason sound engineers can't apply some kind of standard volume level for music cd's?

some of mine play with my preamp's volume set around -10dB and one i got just a few weeks ago - La Cherga-Fake No More - plays at -25 dB. A very large difference...which i've always found as being stupid and totally unnecessary.

Because in the last several years, audio engineers and the people that do the Mastering have been trying to make the recordings as loud as possible, compressing the dynamic range to nil. This makes the average volume much, much higher.

In the past, CDs were mastered in such a way that the peaks of the wide dynamic range stayed under 0dB, making the overall recording "quieter".

I have no sympathy for these assholes. Charged with the responsibility of capturing/recording an artist, they compromise the quality for what they perceive as profit.

Google "Loudness War".

I have some older cd's from the late 80's when CD's were 'new' and I can't play anything off them using a 'shuffle' mode, they are just too quiet to use with newer music. I love the dynamics I have on these cd's so I just listen to those albums on their own.

It's enlightening to watch the log when ripping these cd's with EAC, it will tell you the max loudness on the cd. Those older cd's come in around 80% compared to 100 for the newer stuff.

this means that recording engineers - i should say recording companies - don't give a damn about artists themselves, but focus on every possible way to make 1 more sale.
no wonder some artists start their own production.

i still have some cd's from 1984; very good dynamic range.
i used to watch music on an oscilloscope, and i have never seen an old cd with clipped waves. from what i can see of today's recordings, things got worse.
I'm tempted sometimes to buy another oscilloscope...

thanks for your answers. :-)

I've heard tell of a recording engineer for a metal band who had it mixed beautifully, then slid all the sliders all the way up. When asked why, he said that's what the band expected. LOUD.

same thing as tv makers who put every adjustment at max for showroom competition with other makers. then people take a good tv home and watch everything in fluo colors and a screen so bright people need sunglasses and sun screen.

At least you can take that TV home and re-calibrate it or at least take it off the "vivid" setting and choose "theater" instead.

Unfortunately, the technology doesn't exist for me to flip a switch and re-master what they F**ked up.

Wow so far I am very happy with the m2. I watched transformers 2
(Great reference movie....I know some of you hate it though )and the on/off axis sound is excellent. Megatron's low voice sounds very good.
The m2 is one awesome little speaker. I only wish I would have bought it 3 years ago instead of the vp150.. I am building the modified shelf right now, should have it urethaned later today.
I'll try to get some pics up by tuesday.
Thanks

I just watched that movie today. The voice is so low, that I'm thinking that most of it's coming from the mains.

Well that’s what you get for not paying attention to all my posts complaining about the SQ of the VP150.

You might be right but it was better than the 150 at the side seats I'm sure that the sub was helping it out on the low end.....if you can call a 8inch velodyne "low end"
My sub has always been the weak point of my system. My next project is to build two sealed wood veneered boxes to fit two 15" Rythmiks




Oh well at least I know what the 150 is like I and won't have any upgradeitis

For center channel, I have the M2 paired with the vp100, sometime soon the vp150. I think paired they probably sound the best. M2 above screen, vp150 below screen.

I finally took some pictures. Try to ignore my daughters fingerprints all over everything, and the bad photography, and the dust. Its hard to take good pictures of wood indoors.
I like the way it turned out and so far everyone likes the sound.





That last one makes me laugh! I think the flash makes the tv and the glass look worse than it is

Very nice, Chet. Is the front edge of the M2 flush with the edge of the shelf, rather than being recessed?

I second John; very nice, Chet.

+3

Beautiful looking setup!

Very nice, curious if you have tried spreading out the M80's a bit more?

Whoa, that is a fantastic looking room!

Hi turbo,

Great-looking room. It has almost a church-like feel to it because of the arched ceiling and the leaded window. Put on the Durufle Requiem mass and I'd kneel and praise the god of music and high fidelity!

Did you or someone custom-build the cabinetry? Or is it purchased? Nice match to the speakers, too..

Alan

The M2 looks good in there.

Thanks for all the positive comments

The M2 is flush with the shelf it sits on.


I think I have had them each about 4-5 inches further apart but never really noticed a big change.


Thanks Alan, When we bought the house that was our first impression(it looks like a church). I have always wondered what a barrel vault does to the sound. I did a job in a church once that had round vaults. We noticed that at specific spots around the cathedral if you whispered, someone on the other side of the church could hear you as if you were standing right behind them. It was strange. As for the woodwork luckily one one my jobs is a finish carpenter, so yes I built the stand. Over the years it has gone through a few evolutions The last one was stained to match the trim in the house.

The shelf is also adjustable in and out. The gaps on the sides of the m2 get bigger the further out it goes.(due to the wedge shape of the m2)

When I used to do weddings, I was in a Greek Cathedral fairly often that was like this. I was like having huge parabolic mics overhead. Alas, if one of them was over the alter, with some careful camera positioning I could have avoided needing wireless mics to capture the priest and vows!

Awfully nice woodwork, by the way!

I have the VP150 center and with having to build up a whole new home theater, and the cost of finishing a basement, and a kitchen remodel, etc etc etc with the new house we are getting, I won't be able to upgrade to a VP180 unless I got a good amount of Axiom bucks for the VP150...

So I was thinking about keeping the VP150 center and ADDING another speaker above the screen (VP100 maybe), but now I wonder about the VP150 above the screen and something like a M2 under the screen. Anyone ever do something like that? I really like the look of Chet's gear and room (nice warm wood), but it has me thinking.....

I believe that Mike has a VP150 over 2 M22s as his center channel glob.

Cat Brat just did something like that.

Sweet... I will check with them...

I have an M2 above and a VP100 below. Maybe soon a VP150 below. See picture on my signature. The M2 above added a lot of dialog detail.

Great job on the cabinets and room. Everything blends nicely,

Thanks Murph

Sense I love my new m2 so much I got thinking about center channel designs.... If the vertical speaker sounds so much better on and off axis why doesn't Axiom make a vertical array center? I am no speaker designer, but having the tweeter above the mid driver seems to be the way most centers are built. They are usually flanked by a bass driver on either side like this.

I remember reading that the vp150 had side tweeters to help with off axis response but after owning the 150 I can tell you that it didn't work very well.(in my room) Maybe its just A.D.D. but this thought just popped into my mind. Has this been discussed before? Or am I just crazy Anyway just some random thoughts.
Here is another center that I thought was a great idea after deciding that a bookshelf speaker is the way to go for a center speaker. The larger box and front firing ports would deepen the low end.

I think that the ideal situation would be to have 3 identical vertical front speakers, but you knew that since you mentioned that back a few pages. As for the reason for the designs, I will let someone like Alan speak to that.

PS. Sense <> Since

Yeah, Chet; that's been discussed here occasionally. Although I personally have no need for a horizontally configured center speaker and suggest a small vertical unit if one identical to the mains can't be accommodated, I've also suggested that the W T/M W configuration be considered. One possibility would be the 4" mid-range from the QS4 with the standard tweeter above it, and flanked closely by the 6 1/2" woofers.

As you mention, there are quite a few(but not most)centers configured this way which perform very well. Axiom appears to be at a competitive disadvantage in this area.

Audio repercussions aside, I suspect that horizontal center channels sell much better to the average consumer because their shape is naturally easier to place in a typical room/cabinet setup.

I sensed you might pick that out

I plan on putting M2's that I have just ordered on top of my M80's a using them as dual centers powered by an Emotiva UPA-1. The M80's are about 5 inches from my 50 inch Samsung plasma. Has anybody else done something similar to this? Opinions welcome, thanks.

In what way would that be "better" than a phantom center channel?

Dddt dtt tha.. that's. drrrr dttt dttt that's not a center channel! <twitch>

While positionally 2 m2's atop the towers is in some respects like a phantom center channel, I would think maintaining the discrete center information would be important/helpful. Anyways I will have 30 days to try it out. Thanks

Ron, welcome. The center channel information is "maintained" just as discretely when it's played by the mains; speakers always have to play a multitude of different sounds and the center info is just another category.

Your proposed arrangement would have one of the two benefits that a separate center speaker can have: the ability to adjust the level of the center channel independently of the mains, to try to make low-level dialog more understandable. The second benefit, anchoring dialog to the center of screen, wouldn't be realized; the center image would shift to the side along with the position of the listener, but not farther out than the center channel speaker on that side. This is the same result that occurs when the mains are playing the center channel.

It's almost, but not quite, as philosophically painful to me as placing the surround speakers on top of the mains. But hey, it's your setup, and I could be wrong. Hope it works for you.

Anchoring the dialog to the screen was the initial reason why I thought of doing this. Puts the M2's right at the center on my tv on each side. I may slightly raise the back of the M2's (perhaps a quarter inch or so) to angle them a bit towards ear level. Thanks for the warm welcome, I've been an Axiom owner for 5 years (M80's, M60's, QS8's, & a VP-150) and this is my first posting.

Yea, I'll let you all know my results, and that's a cute baby you have there. Thanks, Ron

That'll handle vertically centering the dialog, but if you sit at all left or right off center from the TV, the dialog will appear to move in that direction horizontally.

Good to know, we really don't have any seats to the side so hopefully that will not be an issue.

Any reason why you can't run the M2s under and over the screen? This has yielded much better results.