Hi I'm deadmau5 and this is my first post! I've been a huge fan of axiom for 6 years ever since I bought a pair of m22ti's. I've been getting back into the hobby for the last few weeks and started treating my bedroom acoustically and also helping two friends buying budget hifi's for themselves via craigslist. It got me thinking about my own upgrades.

Right now I have a yamaha htr-5660 series receiver. It's fairly good as far as I know however I've always wondered what a separate power amp could do. My friend's relatively cheap klipsh b2's really benefited just from going from a cheapo sony receiver to an older yamaha stereo A series receiver (sounded like different speakers, added a whole lot of dynamic range and authority).

Tubes aren't really my thing, are there any favorite pairings for the m22's? I also mention longterm because I plan to eventually get m80's, but that is a long way off and I can spend <300 on a good amp for now that will drive my next pair better as well.

Welcome.

Does your Yamaha have pre-outs, or are you looking for a new receiver?

Do you listen at high volumes?

Is this a two-channel system or multi-channel?

Most people think competently engineered solid-state amps sound indistinguishable.

It seems pretty unlikely to me that you're going to hear a noticeable difference unless you go to tubes or listen at fairly high volumes.

That being said, it's fun to buy new stuff

Have fun.

If you goind to keep a 2channel only then i vote for a integrated amplifier instead of a av receiver. At least you will use the amp at his 100% capabilety instead of the millions fonctions of a avr you wont ever use and pay.At this price range 250-500$ you can find something very good

I'm a 2 channel guy. HT is a goal for the future but my receiver does have pre-outs anyway. Is it not worth upgrading until after I get m80's?

I'd get some nice, vintage (restored?) integrated amp from the 70's like a Kenwood or a Sansui. But, I love that stuff.

Honestly, I don't think you're going to get much bang for your buck until you get the M80's.

Take a look at the HK 3490.

Deadmau, welcome. Simply from the standpoint of basic amplification there doesn't appear to be a good reason to replace your 5660. Except in the highly unlikely situation that you're playing the M22s so loudly(and possibly endangering your hearing)that the designed 5660 limits are being exceeded, it's doing the job as well as amplification can.

If you want to spend money on audio equipment at this time a far better enhancement to your enjoyment of music would be adding a pair of surrounds to make the home listening experience a bit more realistic(using a mode such as DPLII).

Deadmau5, with my M60s I did not really notice any performance difference in just adding an offboard power amp, in my case the Emotiva UPA-7. However when I replaced my Denon AVR-3805 receiver with the Emotiva UMC-1 processor it was a huge improvement.

I therefore second the earlier opinion that if you want sound quality go with a simple stereo only receiver setup. I am currently trying to steer a friend in the same direction. There are some nice analog stereo receivers out there that will provide good performance. Home theater receivers are spreading your money across many functions that you may never use.

Dave

I don't want to argue with JohnK, but, I think there are noticeable differences in sound quality among different amps.

My M22s really opened up and sing when driven by a vintage Harman Kardon PM 665 integrated dual mono amplifier.

I had good results with a flagship Kenwood KA9100 integrated amp.

I did not have good results with a 5 wpc SET tube amplifier.

I did not have good results with a Sony STRDB 1070 when used as a 2 channel integrated stereo amp/receiver.

Good luck.

It would be helpful to all concerned if you were more descriptive when telling us how an amp changed the sound of your speakers. We can only guess what you mean by "opened up and sing".

I was picturing Michigan J. Frog out of the box and singing

Peter, I've found that my M22s "opened up and sing" whenever I turn them on and a vocalist is performing, regardless of the specific amplification being employed.

The orthodox mob here (you'll know them by the number of posts - 8,000 plus) believe as an article of faith that there is no difference in sound quality among different solid state amps.

Although it may appear to be a bizarre article of faith, nevertheless, it is central to the mantra of these true believers. They mock people who disagree with them. You may notice that on many occasions they are the only members on the board. They do not usually post alone, but in series. They have managed to reduce the traffic on this site to almost zero, but they have accomplished their goal of keeping out the riff raff who disagree with them. Yes, the faithful here share the true faith. Here are the tenets you must believe:

1. The only component which effects sound quality is the speaker and as to that, Axioms are the best.

2. All solid state amps (well designed) of similar power output sound identical.

3. All tube amplifiers are merely distortion generators.

4. All digital audio sources (DVD, CD) perfectly reproduce sound quality since the data consists only of 1's and 0's.

5. All Cables and interconnects of sufficient gauge sound identical.

Now, if you disagree with any of these tenets of the one true audio faith, you are subject to a lecture from he who knows it all, hi John, snarky insults from the sarcastic sycophant, hi there pmb, or their clack of flacks, hey Jake.

Govern your conduct accordingly.

As for me, I just felt a bit sarcastic today myself.

We love you, Brother.

You have me all wrong 2x4.

My M22's were opening up and singing too. But, then I woke up. I decided it must of just been gas.

Thank you brother CV, Jake, I'll grow the other 2 back soon enough! Cat, what big teeth you have.

My audio beliefs boil down to a simple choice. I place my "faith" in assertions that have been tested and supported by hard data rather than anecdotal claims that have not.

As it turns out, this choice requires no faith at all.

So, pmb, I checked out your profile to see if you listed information about your audio equipment, since, after all, you are a shareholder in the making, and a commissar on the users politburo, and spend more time on this site than any other person, so, what did I find? ... nothing.

I wanted to make sure you had not invested in anything more than a bargain basement amplifier if a standalone, a bargain basement CD, DVD player, since one is as good as another.

I wanted to confirm that you are true to the faith of output equality, and the negation of distinction between/among solid state amplifiers, CD players, DVD players.

Oh well. I'm sure you will let us know.

I believe the same as Peter. Feel free to audit my gear. I admit it was a mistake to buy the DV-79AVi, but I shouldn't take too much of a loss when I sell it for an Oppo universal player (and not the one with the fancy analog outs).

I also have two Final Sound subwoofers (sold via closeout by Outlaw), and all my wire is by Blue Jeans.

That's a nice system you have there CN. Your Pioneer Elite Universal Player has those "fancy" analog outs. They work very well with high resolution formats - SACD and DVD Audio. I take it you don't use the SACD or DVD-A capabilities of your Pioneer.

Oppo makes some great universal players. Enjoy your system and your faith. Go in peace, and as to that fancy Pioneer, sin no more.

Yeah, I got it for the analog outs when I had an old Sony receiver with only a S/PDIF connection. Now that I've got a receiver with up to date technology, I use the HDMI connection. Except it doesn't do SACD over HDMI (only DVD-Audio), but my first gen PS3 does DSD->LPCM. So I've still got my bases covered.

Interesting. I picked up an Onkyo TXNR 1007 for the HDMI - Bluray connection. The 1007 has the analog in array. I picked up a used Sony NS999ES SACD player - pre HDMI - connected all the fancy analog cables (thanks lampshade for the tip for those beautiful natural fiber insulated interconnects) and could not get the 1007 and the Sony to output SACD. I may have to read the manual.

I like banana fiber the best.

If you must know, 2x6, I am still using the first receiver I ever purchased, an Onkyo TX-DS575 that I got from uBid.com in the early 2000s when they were still alive. It doesn't even do DPLII. I also have a Sony DVD/SACD/CD player that I got from my brother. I use it for both movies and music. I also use my iPod/iPhone/iPad as a music source when I want a large variety of music.

I no longer use my Onkyo 6-disc CD-changer. I should list it.

When the space aliens come, Lampaxiom, it will be for the bananas... and they will take them.

I wonder where UBID got their product from. They sold some incredible gear at ridiculous prices. I paid $19 a speaker for a gaggle of Michaura M55s, $165 each for the M665s, $200 for a $2,000 msrp Toshiba SD9200 DVD Audio player, $100 for a Parasound 2 channel preamp, $400 for a $2,000 msrp Philips SACD1000 ...

Anyway, that's a very nice system you have there, and sure enough, your gear is true to your philosophy.

Good on ya.

Bitter. Party of one? Your table is ready.

That's the problem when a small group takes over a site. These forums used to have many participants who discussed their audio preferences, observations and points of view.

Now, we have very few participants, but what we lost in quantity and quality we have gained in conformity. Sure, the few true believers here sure do post a lot, like you PopeBob - why I see you're a thousand posts a year man. Good work. What you don't seem to get is that this is not such a friendly site anymore. It does not welcome folks who do not subscribe to the true audio faith, and a handful of folks with too much time on their hands, who post more than a thousand times a year each is not the same as an active forum.

Indeed, the faithful have all but shut this place down. So, PopeBob, thanks for the table for one, but the restaurant is just about empty.

Se let me prove your theory: Don't like it? Leave!

I started writing a long diatribe back to you, but just erased it. Ultimately, YOU'RE the troll who feels that anyone that disagrees with you simply subscribes to groupthink, when instead, it just so happens that many people feel differently than you.

Find a home where others think as you do, and stop telling us we're mindless and stupid because we disagree with you.

You're tiresome, 2x6. You play nice for awhile, then randomly go on the attack when you feel that you're not getting people into a similar groupthink mode as yourself.

There was a night and day difference between by Sony and by Pioneer receiver in sound quality.

Hey, to be honest, I remember a real difference when I went from NAD separates to a Technics receiver, but I didn't A/B them under any sort of controlled situation.

So, I don't know where I stand on the amp issue. I'd like to buy a more powerful amp, but I'm not sure it'll make any difference. So my problem isn't whether you believe different amps sound differently. Some day I'll have some spare change to buy an amp and I'll see for myself.

My problem here is that 2x6 makes blanket statements about the top posters here shouting down differing opinions, and I don't see evidence of that. I think this place is VERY open in comparison to other forums. Matter of fact, the other day I remember one of those top posters telling some others to be nice to someone with which they disagreed.

2X6 just brings out this "everyone gangs up on me and shouts down differing opinions" argument because he simply can't see that some people feel differently than he does, and that it doesn't mean there's some sort of plot.

He posts his opinion, JohnK and some others post a differing opinion.

The difference is, the others do it maturely while 2x6 starts starts ranting and raving.

I don't want to feed the troll, but it just gets really fu*king old to hear this over and over. It's been going on for years and years. At that point, a person doesn't come here to join in the camaraderie or to be social or even to be helpful, they come here looking for an opportunity to try to bitch slap someone and start an argument.

He doesn't like it? Leave. No one makes anyone stay here.

Thanks for the invite number 7544. I think you have identified the problem - too many people posting on this site. [crickets]

I've been posting here for 9 years ... own more than my share of axiom speakers ... I'll post here for as long as I like or until I'm banned by the faithful.

stay here! then just ignore the trolls.
this is the best cure/remedy; otherwise, it never ends.

(to 2x6)
God, I don't believe I'm asking this:

Then what is it you want by bringing up the tired argument again and again? What result are you looking for?

Who is that weird blue guy and what is he spraying?

I'm pretty content all things considered, and thanks for asking.

Personally, I don't like Coke OR Pepsi. That's just me.

I think today's Coke is the New Coke. I don't like either one now, but I used to love Coke.

Here's what happened with Coke:

Coca-Cola was making their original product, and when they introduced a Diet Coke, they formulated it to taste as close to the original, but because it was a different, artificial sweetener it was a completely different recipe.

In the 80s Diet Coke was outselling Coca-Cola, so they figured to save money they'd standardize on one formula, but with different sweeteners. So one batch would get aspartame, and while making the change they also switched over to high fructose corn syrup in the US for the other batch. The later became New Coke.

After much protest they reintroduced Coca-Cola Classic, which went back to the original formula, but stuck with the HFCS instead of cane sugar.

If you liked the taste of the real original Coke, get some from Mexico (or Romania, where I drink tons of Coke when I visit).

Why don't you just stick your fingers into your ears and repeat, "LA LA LA LA ..."?

There is a reason why there are so few people who still post here. It is a group-think intolerance for other points of view.

I get PMs from folks who don't want to post about their favorable impressions of their Axiom speakers driven by tube amplifiers. It's just not worth it to some. This site has become narrow and brittle in its non-acceptance of opinions which contradict what has become the collective and acceptable point of view regarding audio matters.

In any case, congratulations! You have succeeded in reducing this once active forum to a paddock for the few who post 1,000+ times a year to the faithful.

This is not a friendly site. What this site has become is not healthy for Axiom. But hey, at least they have you 8,000+ post folks even if they don't have many visitors who stay.

Let a thousand flowers bloom.

So much drama. I still don't like Coke or Pepsi though.

Maybe you should mix the two to see if it acts like a double-negative.

And I was expecting another post about Coke.

How do I get Coke from Mehico or Romania, while living in Missouri?

You should move to Coke-a-munga or Albacokee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Coke (It also comes in a glass bottle in Romania.)

You also might want to try Red Bull's Simply Cola. It has a different taste than Coke or Pepsi, but is very nice flavor.

You make my point.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean: If you can't find Mexican Coke at one of the places listed in the Wikipedia article, you might want to try Red Bull's cola, because being sweetened with cane sugar and made from natural ingredients, it also has a similar clean taste, but is more readily available.

What I actually meant was: If you don't drink Red Bull cola you're an idiot.

I'm an idiot.

After talking about this at work, I think I know how to find Mexican Coke now in the local grocery stores.

Albacokee? Seriously dude?

Do you think Pepsadena would have been better?

You wouldn't go to Pepsadena to buy Coke products. That'd be like...like... I can't think of a good analogy.

Like going to a brothel to buy bibles?

Club Neon (~1200 posts per year), MarkSJohnson (~1,000 ppy), CatBrat who is cruising at the rate of almost 1600 ppy, Adrian running at the phenomenal rate of about 2,500 ppy, you are the clack of flacks. Congratulations.

Enjoy your cokes.

All noise, little signal.

10 registered guests on line. Keep up the good work.

I guess I'm a clack then, maybe a reformed clack, as I love my Outlaw 7700, and previous Odyssey mono's, but my Emo MPS1 sucked clack flack.

Disturbing confusion there ... separates are more like crack and are not indicia of flacks traveling in clacks. Also, the sucking thing is wrong.

Furthermore, are you suggesting that the sound quality of the Emo amps differ from the sound quality of the Outlaw amps?

I'm afraid that smacks of heresy so I must refer you to the clack of flacks for further investigation. Careful there.

This is the most interesting thread I've seen in a while! The boat's a rockin'...

LOL!!!

I certainly gotta agree with you on these assessments 2x6.

I am very happy with my Axiom speakers. Many of my friends now also have Axioms. I have posted here for almost 10 years. Those are my bona fides.

This message board is the public voice of the community of owners of Axiom speakers. I think Axiom has become associated with a narrow and particular point of view regarding disputed audio matters. Instead of open discourse we have a situation where a few people have really taken over this site. They enforce a particular and narrow point of view by ridicule, sarcasm, shunning (coke/pepsi) and arrogant pronouncements. They deride and are intolerant of other points of view.

I think this discourages people who come to this site to find out more about Axiom speakers.

It seems to me that this site should be open to people who are interested in audio, and in Axiom speakers and how they play with other equipment. They deserve a warm welcome.

Let a thousand flowers bloom.

That's the problem when a small group takes over a site. These forums used to have many participants who discussed their audio preferences, observations and points of view.

I dont have an "exact" position, but I see the point trying to be made..........

For the last few months, I've wondered why Axiom makes center speakers and "I feel like I made the wrong choice" (for me holes in walss)

Once the vertical center discussion came into play, "there is no other way to have a perfect setup"

Now is that theory wrong? Probably not, but with the responses it almost seems like there is no room for choice, if you want the shizbot"

I keep thinking "EVERYONE" who posts went to a vertical center, can all of these folks have that option? Or is a pile-on?

Jut stating facts from my end not a call on vertical centers

Jeff

Jeff

Does your 3008 drive front L/R, Front Wide L/R and Front High L/R as well as side and back surrounds?

Love the glasses, btw. Much better than pocket protectors.

I read "bibles" as "babies."

Then I reread it and had to stop laughing.

What is disputed?


What is your definition of open discourse? To me, it seems similar to what some would want for our schools, that we should "teach the controversy" and allow creationism to be taught as science along with evolution in schools.


Where is the derision? I think you imbue some of the words you read with more than is really there. As to shunning, I happen to know that a number of regulars added you to their ignore list today. They cannot respond to what they no longer see. I could easily do the same -- I can understand why others chose to -- but I haven't and probably won't.


I haven't seen any new posters leave in disgust. You're making things up. Almost everyone goes out of their way to help newcomers.


As I said before, people go out of their way to help newcomers. If someone asks about tubes, there are enough regulars who own tube gear to provide that information. When JonhK posts to try to steer someone away from tubes, he does it in a matter of fact way. He does not deride the person.

You have a right to post your opinions. Those who disagree with you have just as much right to post theirs. Nobody has the right to freedom from being offended.

In closing, I'll just leave these here.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
-- Aldous Huxley

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
-- Philip K. Dick

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan

The good thing about science is that it's true whether you believe in it or not.
-- Neil deGrasse Tyson

I have a problem with this one. Science isn't truth. It's just our best process for arriving at certain truths, but it always falls short, too, because of our limited ways in which we can utilize it.

You are correct about that, of course. I really admire Neil's way of educating, though. In this video clip, he actually talks about the need to be sensitive to other people's point of view when revealing truth. The last few seconds of the video are pretty excellent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

So, when Neil uses "truth" I'm pretty sure you can take him to mean "the current most truthful (truthy?) conclusions".

I like that.

So, philosophical "truth" meets audio. Once you think you are in possession of the "truth" the opinions of others are by definition, inferior. That's the problem. Yours is the one true faith, or in a moment of weakness, only the truthiest faith.

You and the clack enforce your orthodoxy with ridicule, sarcasm, and derision. You have succeeded. You have driven away or silenced pretty much everyone who disagrees with the tenets of your true faith. Your "truths" require conformity.

Good work. This site has been reduced to a chorus of a handful of mega-posters, 14,579.

It's insulting that you lump all of us who post here together, 2x6spds. I'm capable of thinking my own thoughts, but I'm also not too in love with myself to acknowledge the expertise of others.

Amen, Charles.

The issue is not whether you (CV, Tom) honestly hold your opinions or that you have arrived at them yourself. The issue is how a group who share those opinions deal with those who don't.

I think something has gone wrong here. I think there's an exclusive and unwelcoming ambiance here. You agree or you're not welcome. I don't think that's good for Axiom and it's not as much fun as when there was a more tolerant and less hostile atmosphere here.

At least we're talking about it.

Anywhere people are, something has gone wrong. Talking about it won't change that fact. Ha ha.

Just know that you are the lumper here. You've got so many of us in one pigeonhole that you're calling a contractor to bump the walls out on it.

We do not conspire.
We do not high five each other and say "Man, did you see how I totally shut down that moron tube-o-phile?"
No.
You are not being oppressed.
The victim card has no power here.

Yup. Ain't that THE truth.

only 9.2, so if high & wide only sides

if sides & backs only high OR sides not both. but you can switch on the fly with this setup

Personally, I believe in Creationism, and think the evolution theory is a bunch of man thought up crap. It is only in the past, oh, 50 years or less that evolution has been made into a science. Or rather tried to. Before that it was a theory. One that even the originator didn't fully believe in.

Phone call for CatBrat, a Dr. Neil Tyson calling.

Amen to that CatBrat.

LOL. Shucks, I was hoping for some resistance. Anyway, we've all got our own opinions, and at my age (58), I doubt if anything is going to change it. Not on an audio board anyway. A lot of what we believe, whether true or false, is dependent on how we were brought up and what we learned in our formative years (college included).

Personally, I have a lot of respect for those that have been on this board over the years (evolutionists included). One can gain a lot of knowledge here (and at avsforum). I've seen what looks like some ridiculing of newcomers audio beliefs. Perhaps what would be better is to point that person to some page of info regarding that particular topic. I've seen that done in the past also.

It's only within the last 50 years that tons of diseases that should kill a human now don't.

The collective knowledge acquired in the 20th centurey outstrips all of human knowledge from all centuries combined. The pace is only going to increase.

Boy, if we only knew all that stuff when we had to battle dinosaurs.

"Boy, if we only knew all that stuff when we had to battle dinosaurs."

that's a good one!

About evolution, I refer you back to a quotes I posted previously.

It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-- Carl Sagan

There really is no question that evolution did and does occur. It has been repeatedly supported by evidence. Just as the sun rose and set every day before people knew the reasons why, evolution happens even if science has not divulged all the intricate mechanisms with which it occurs.

Allowing dogma to blind you to what's actually happening in the universe is like keeping God locked up in a box. The roots of the Old Testament are in ancient oral tradition from a time preceding science. We live in an age where we're lucky to not only have time to wonder about our origins and the origins of the universe, but to actually spend time working to find them out. Thank God so many people throughout history have chosen to let God out that box -- because when you choose to put limits on God, you're really limiting yourself.

That, right there, is chock full of truth.

But, this contradicts the scriptures as "The word of God". It either is, or it isn't. If it isn't, then the whole thing is garbage. If it is, then that is the correct box.

I remember reading how recent DNA studies from samples taken around the globe have concluded that the human race can be traced back to a single person. To me, that in itself is a major proof of the creation theory.

My daddy told me his great great grand pappy came from a rock.

Was it the rock, or what was under the rock?

Problem with having a discussion on this site is you end up talking to the few who remain after everyone else has given up and left. And even then, you don't get a discussion, but instead the self congratulatory chattering among the faithful.

Probably because we don't have a life and hang around the Axiom audio board too much looking for something to do.

You don't have to paint yourself into a corner like that.


I believe you're referring to Mitochondrial Eve. Yes, even scientists use bible references. I urge you to read the wikipedia article I linked, particularly the Common fallacies and Implications of dating and placement of Eve sections.

Mitochondria exist in in most of our cells have their own DNA that is unique from our own. This, in and of itself, is an indication that mitochondria, or at least the organisms they evolved from, used to be independent organisms, meaning they didn't used to be part of human bodies or the bodies of our ancestors. Another indication is that mitochondria closely resemble prokaryotes -- single-celled organisms that lack a cell nucleus. In any case, at some point in the past, our destinies combined and mitochondria are now a part of all of us.

Using techniques from the scientific field of human genetics, scientists have concluded that all human beings can most likely trace their ancestry back to a single female who lived in East Africa roughly 200,000 years ago.

Note, also, that a male equivalent of Mitochondrial Eve exists, as well. This most-recent-common partrilineal ancestor is referred to as Y-chromosomal Adam. He probably lived 90,000 to 60,000 years ago, also in Africa.

Problem with your replies is that they are whiny. You are now on my ignore list.

Iraq?

re catbrat: "I remember reading how recent DNA studies from samples taken around the globe have concluded that the human race can be traced back to a single person. To me, that in itself is a major proof of the creation theory."

if my memory serves me right, the research indicates that today's humans are all descendant of one man, a certain time ago, and one woman, at another time period;
it also says that the reason for this is that all other men and women of those 2 time periods and earlier do not have descendants today, their lines were extinguished.
another way of saying this is: 100000 years in the future, they will make DNA studies and find that all the living humans are descendants of only one woman living in the year 1500 BC and one man living on the other side of the earth in the year 3400 AD; every other living person of those periods and earlier do not have any descendants in the year 100000.
Adam and Eve? :-(

2 well known books about the subject were written by Brian Sykes.

it's always a good thing to be very careful when reading scientific literature in order not to misinterpret what is written.
scientific literature must always be read with no preconceptions or bias, but with an open mind.

A birdie just told me about another website that is all about reaching a harmonious existence between Faith and Science: biologos.com

PM,
you are supporting your arguments with quotes. One quote which used the word delusional when you referenced it about people who believe in evolution. I felt it was unkind.

Noted. I'll work on the sensitivity.

Thank you.

A different link.

I read Dr. Menton's article on evolution and disagree with him wholeheartedly. He's really sticking his head in the sand, saying that because he can't see macroevolution happening in his lifetime, it cannot be happening. Ignorance.

I would agree with you there. Something that is supposed to take millenia to happen and you can't see it in 60 years is somewhat stupid. I haven't read the article yet either. Thanks.

I didn't get that from reading the article. He says "Obviously, no one has ever observed anything remotely like this transformation.", which would be a true statement. But he didn't use that statement to prove anything. It was just an observance.

It's nice to be able to have a discussion about such a potentially divisive topic and not have it blow up into yelling. Thanks back at ya.

So, pmbuko believes in the theory of evolution and therefore, his theories concerning audio are scientific and true.

OK.

Is pmbuko proposing that if one believes that there is an audible difference among solid state amplifiers then that person believes the theory of evolution is false?

PMB attempts to represent his opinions regarding audio as determined to a certainty by science.

I suppose PMB does not have to discuss these matters any further because his opinions are QED, scientifically proven, and not subject to dispute, which is, of course, how this discussion started.

I think PMB makes my point. As to the accusation of "whining" ... well, no more need be said.

Didn't seem to me that he linked the audio and evolution topics together. They were discussed separately.

He states his beliefs, you state your beliefs. You're each entrenched, so what next? You gonna spend all your time trying to defeat him in an argument? I mean, it's a free country and all, so if you really want to, go ahead. I cannot stop you. But I can give you some friendly advice: You're tilting at windmills at this point. Why not just agree to disagree?

Medic8r, I'm trying to determine if your post count invalidates any opinion you might have on the matter, or if it's low enough for you to be an OK guy.

Those awesome brownie desserts on game night incline me to believe the latter, but I'm anticipating real data on it soon.

I'd rather disagree to disagree. The point is not whether we disagree, medic8r. I think you know better.

Yeah, after more reflection, I think I get it.

You like your tube amps. Most people here don't like tube amps, even if they've never heard them, I bet, which is another topic altogether. These people think that solid state is the way to go. Your comments about liking tube amps often bring out the solid state crowd, who smack you around like a piñata. Do this enough times, and I'm sure it gets real old. Annoying. I wouldn't want to be a piñata.

So, you point this out. You voice your frustration. However, You did it in such a way that you implied a conspiracy and insulted people. By lashing back so hard, you made it worse for yourself. If you had said something like, "Say what you want, I like my tube amps," and left it at that, things would have gone a whole lot easier. IIRC, Terry (audiosavant) likes tube amps and has said so here without getting the piñata treatment.

Lampy, too.

Hell, I might want to try a tube amp some day.

No, that's not the issue, and I believe you are aware of this. However, if you can reduce the conversation to your blatant mischaracterization then you can avoid the issue.

Why don't you just go back to talking about Coke and Pepsi, or evolution? That's a more straightforward and honest diversion of the topic.

Hi guys,

I have been watching this thread and I am not really picking sides...but! You guys have really degraded the OP topic, and he has not said so but I bet you made him feel bad about all the bickering.

I, myself am a "just getting going" sort of guy in the audiofile scene. I get what 2X6 is saying, why not lend a hand and not hand a lend!

Your awesome bud!

OK, deadmau5, here is an amp listed on ebay, current bid at $29.

VINTAGE HARMAN KARDON INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER PM655 Vxi

LINK TO HK AMP ON EBAY

I have no connection with this auction.

I do have a Harman Kardon PM 665 which I use with my M22Tis and a Velodyne 10" sub. The combination is incredibly good. When I say incredibly good, I mean GREAT, WORLD CLASS, KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF GOOD. Of course I use it with a world class Sony CA9ES CD player (not all CDPS the same you know). Good luck, have a good time, and enjoy your wonderful M22s

Ah, so that's what he's been smoking.

Maybe you should try some!

Pass it down, please.

I'll take some too.

Buncha stoners around here.

I've thought that from day one Ken.

Hmmmm....Mark even named his new dog "Buddy", just sayin'....

I had an HK integrated amp like that in the 1980's. It was awesome. Wish I still had it.

You've still got it, Tom, you've still got it.

Cheech is right, man. You're outta sight!

Bob's not here man...knock knock knock

Tubes in the preamp path of a DAC sound great on M22's...maybe not in an amplifier though