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#35774 - 03/05/04 01:21 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Yes, I should have asked what all those who believe "all-receivers-sound-the-same" are using. Thanks for straightening me out. You are entitled to your opinions, but it seems to me that your opinions are theory driven and ignore the obvious differences in sound among receivers. On the other hand, maybe there are folks whose hearing is a bit impaired.

As a matter of fact, I think you all should be called on what appears nonsense. Really, what receivers do you all use? Did you really pick expensive receivers for the features? What about receivers with same or better specs and features at a lower price? Why didn't you choose one of the real bargain receivers out there. Anyone pay more than $300 for their receiver? Why, when you can get a Panasonic SAHE200 for $300? Could it be that some of you don't really believe what you're saying?
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#35775 - 03/05/04 03:19 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...Ya right
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10387
Here again we have yet more examples of generally bright folks refusing to accept scientific facts and instead following the silly "Just trust your ears" mantra, which collapses when it's actually applied in a blind test and the nameplates and pricetags disappear.
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#35776 - 03/05/04 04:07 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
2x6,

What exactly are you getting at? Do I have to spell it out completely for you? OK then. Here are just a few reasons to buy receiver A over receiver B:

1. price
2. features
3. build quality
4. history of brand reliability
5. appearance
6. size

So, yes, even those of us who don't believe receivers sound different have plenty of reason to subjectively choose one over another. Also, you keep mentioning that our views are theory driven. I would call it data driven. You can only trust your ears to be truly objective in a blind listening test.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#35777 - 03/05/04 11:01 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Hear hear JohnK.
Succinct and concise.
I think it is up for most brilliant post of the year, although Intrepid has been writing poetry over in that other column so you have some stiff competition.

For those who missed the age old argument, see this thread here in which cblake and sushi have a great discussion on the supposed theories behind the differences in receivers/amps thing.
Gee i miss sushi.
Objectivity in a box wrapped with a ribbon of intelligence he was...um...is.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#35778 - 03/05/04 12:26 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
OK, those who believe all-receivers-sound-the-same, please tell me who has paid more than the $200-300 street price at which the Panasonic SA HE 200 can be had and why?





Dolby Digital Decoder (Dolby Digital EX)

DTS Decoder (DTS-ES)

Dolby Pro Logic Surround 3 (Pro Logic II)

MOS-FET Output Stage

Subwoofer Level Control

Large Speaker Terminals

6-Ch Discrete Inputs

Enhanced Class H+ Amplifier

2-Channel Down Mixing

SFC (Sound Field Control) 6 presets

Digital Synthesizer Tuner (Frequency Range - FM Tuner: 87.9-107.9MHz, AM Tuner: 530-1710kHz)

Subwoofer Output

Illuminated Universal Remote Control

Speaker Size Configuration large/small/none (except left/right channels)

Tape Monitor

Speaker Selector A and/or B

Output Power - Stereo Mode 100W per channel (20Hz-20kHz, 6 ohms, 0.05% THD) View all models with this feature

Frequency Response PHONO: RIAA standard curve ±0.8dB
CD, TAPE, DVD, TV, VCR: 10Hz-100kHz View all models with this feature

S/N Ratio (IHF A) PHONO: 70dB (80dB, IHF '66)
CD, TAPE, DVD, TV, VCR: 90dB (95dB, IHF '66)
DVD 6-channel: 100dB

Load Impedance A or B: 4-8 ohms
A and B: 8 ohms
Center: 6-8 ohms
Surround: 6-8 ohms

Component Video Switching (2 inputs, 1 output)

Output Power - Home Theater Mode 130W per channel (6 channels, 1kHz, 6 ohms, 0.9% THD)

DVD-Audio Ready Yes

Multi-Source Re-Master Processing

Gold-Plated Terminals

S-Video Inputs/Outputs 5 in, 3 out

Video Inputs/Outputs 4 in, 3 out

Digital Inputs/Outputs 5 in (4 optical, 1 coaxial), 1 out (optical)

Audio Inputs/Outputs 7 in, 4 out


Dimensions (H x W x D) 16 15/16'' x 6 1/4'' x 14 27/32''

25.4 lbs.

__________________________________________________

So, explain please why any of you paid more than the $200-300 for which you can pick up one of these?
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#35779 - 03/05/04 12:49 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
joema Offline
local

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Nashville, TN
I am confident that in the informal, uncontrolled listening tests that provide the basis for most of these comparisons, many receivers do sound different. But it's not because of a unique sound characteristic of the amplifier section. Rather in most cases it's due to loudness not being perfectly controlled in an A/B test, or a misunderstood DSP mode, digital arrival time, EQ or bass management feature accidentally left on or misconfigured.

For example a good number of these tests likely aren't in "direct stereo mode". Receivers are so complicated nowadays, knowing exactly what mode they're in and the details of that mode isn't always easy, esp when the manual is poorly written (or translated). E.g, my RX-V1400 has both a "straight stereo" mode, and a "direct stereo" mode. Some Onkyo receivers have both a direct mode and a similar "pure audio" mode. Knowing which does what requires careful study of an often vague and poorly-worded manual.

Receiver listening comparisons really shouldn't use a subwoofer, yet many likely do. Direct stereo modes (required for the best chance at an equal comparison) usually disable the digital domain processing necessary for bass management, plus it's complicated calibrating a common sub for two different receivers.

It's well documented that small differences in loudness significantly affect the perceived sound quality. Therefore it's necessary in any controlled listening test to calibrate the peak level of the test material on both receivers. Just setting volume controls to about the same point isn't sufficient.

I know these may be obvious, but it's very likely many casual receiver A/B listening tests don't meticulously follow these, making the comparisons questionable.

Obviously I'm talking about contemporary solid state receivers. It seems more likely (although I don't have any hard data) that an audible difference might exist for tube amps in some circumstances.

The reason for not buying a bottom-of-the-line receiver is simple: features. E.g, the Panasonic SA-HE200 is a OK receiver but doesn't have on screen display, EQ, or automatic calibration. The bass management has only three fixed crossover choices, 100, 120 or 150 Hz. It has somewhat limited input/output jacks. The amp is class H, so some theoretical differences there. If none of those are issues for a potential buyer, I don't see why not buy it.


Edited by joema (03/05/04 01:13 PM)

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#35780 - 03/05/04 01:09 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Indeed joema.
That is often the case and is how the sound character of a brand gets started, posted, read and propagated.
In reply to:

It seems more likely (although I don't have any hard data) that an audible difference might exist for tube amps



Obviously we are talking about 2 amps that are at least the same amp design. Tube amps have known MEASURABLE differences to back up the claims of audible reports. Together this is enough proof to say tube amps do sound different than solid state. Yet blind tests and measurements of equal build SS amps have shown there is no sound difference (when comparing the apples to apples situation per joema's post) and for some reason this conclusion is not accepted by self professed audiophiles.
Amazing how selective ppl become when the results do not follow one's beliefs.

This Panasonic 2x6 is touting is a Class H amp, not a Class A/B. That alone makes it directly incomparable to what most ppl own.
Experimental design theory 101.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#35781 - 03/05/04 02:13 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I see. So, when we compare "equal build SS amps" there is no discernable difference in sound. I suppose the best example of this would be to compare 2 identical receivers, like an Onkyo 797 vs. an Onkyo 797. OK, I see, but as to receivers which are not of "equal build SS amps," then we can expect to hear differences, right?
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#35782 - 03/05/04 02:17 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
You have an amazing way of twisting people's words.
Truly incredible.
Keep trying though.
One day you might understand.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#35783 - 03/05/04 02:21 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

OK, those who believe all-receivers-sound-the-same, please tell me who has paid more than the $200-300 street price at which the Panasonic SA HE 200 can be had and why?


My Onkyo TX-DS575 is 4 years old. I paid about $425 for it. The Panasonic wasn't available at the time.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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