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#35824 - 03/06/04 10:47 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
FH, I didn't want to extend this thread still further, but a couple of comments are in order. Certainly a much higher noise level in one receiver could in some circumstances be audible in quieter passages, but manufacturers specify noise and distortion ratings(and a few reviewers actually test for them)which are generally inaudibly low and in any case don't affect the other aspects of sound quality.

What you termed "attack and decay" would in fact show up in frequency response graphs if it was inadequate in some poorly-designed amp. In order for an amp to reproduce a frequency at a flat level and with low distortion, it has to have a high-enough "slew rate", which measures the ability to rapidly supply changing voltage requirements at different frequencies and levels of loudness. If it can do 20-20,000Hz flat and with inaudibly low distortion, that establishes that it has a high enough slew rate. No differences in "attack" exist in such items.
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#35825 - 03/07/04 02:55 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
rjones Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 25
Loc: Portland, OR
Sheesh, where did you get a 525 for $500? I just picked up a 330 for $500 (same price jandr.com is selling them for) and thought that I got a good deal...

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#35826 - 03/07/04 03:30 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
It was a refurb from One Call (an authorized online retailer). I think it was actually more like 550-600 after all was said and done... (Yeah, I bought into their rip-off extended warranty...) but it was still a fantastic deal.
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#35827 - 03/07/04 01:08 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
austinbirdman Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 185
Loc: The only place to live in Texa...
I don't want to open up anything that will lead to another group hug (after another breech), but a simple question here, especially for the no-difference crowd: What about THD? Receivers have different THD levels. Surely one can hear an appreciable difference when the THD gets up above 1%, as it does on some of the cheapest consumer-big-box and HTIB receivers. (None of which are regularly recommended on this forum.) I'm further willing to believe that your run-of-the-mill hifi enthusiast can detect subtle differences between a receiver with THD of .04% (say, Yamaha) and one at .08% (H/K). I haven't heard the difference, but that's because I've never done the blind (or even sighted) A/B test. But it hardly seems far-fetched to accept that there is a difference. I KNOW BEYOND A DOUBT that I can hear it above the 1% range, b/c I've brought home and returned some cheap-o receivers in my day. Features didn't account for the poor sound quality.

Birdman
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#35828 - 03/07/04 01:37 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Oh, I don't think anyone is saying that the cheap-o ones don't sound different. Or ones that are underpowered for the speakers and clip. However, 1% is a whole lot bigger than a .03% differential. (BTW, just because I looked at the specs recently, the H/K 525 has a THD of .07%) Because I don't have data in front of me, I can't quote numbers, but I seriously doubt that anyone can hear this difference.
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#35829 - 03/07/04 05:21 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
One other point: When doing A/B comparisons in a retail store you usually have your back turned to the salesworm. All kinds of shennanigans could be going on. While comparing a Denon 2802 to a Sony ES receiver the salesworm turned the volume and treble down on the Denon in order to get me to buy the Sony (it seems he and another salesworm were disagreeing about who should get credit for the sale - as I had demoed Denons with the other guy the day before).

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#35830 - 03/07/04 06:55 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!
roffels Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 12/24/03
Posts: 25
Loc: Wisconsin
Rjones -- I just "ordered" the HK AVR 525 from Harman Kardon's ebay account. They sell them refurbished with warranty -- the winning bids typically end somewhere between 450-560. My winning bid was 480, but it was $515 after shipping. You should check it out, as HK seems to put them up for sale daily.

The main reason I purchased it was to replace my cheapo one, which had a high THD rating of .7% at some rated frequency like 2 khz. I'm anxious to hear if I do perceive a difference -- seeing as the HK will be a bit beefier in power.

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#35831 - 03/07/04 09:16 PM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
AB, of course when distortion gets high enough it can be heard as a difference in sound. How high is "high enough" depends to a large extent on what type of material is being reproduced. On music, testing has shown that THD has to be higher than 1%(sometimes 2-3%) before a difference is identified in blind tests. There's no way that distortions so far below the threshhold of audibility as .04% and .08% could be differentiated. They would have to be at least 20 times as much. So yes, of course very high levels of noise and distortion, along with big frequency deviations could be heard, but they don't occur in well-designed equipment, whether it costs $200 or $2,000.
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#35832 - 03/08/04 08:05 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
hi john,dont take this as a stab at you,ok,but i believe receivers sound different.As you said in your last sentence,---So yes, of course very high levels of noise and distortion, along with big frequency deviations could be heard, but they don't occur in well-designed equipment, whether it costs $200 or $2,000.---wouldnt you say that different receivers are designed differently,and somwhere down the line,one would be not so well- designed as the others resulting in a different -or -not as good sound as the others?...is it possible for one receiver to have more output in the higher freq or lower range than the next?...ron



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#35833 - 03/08/04 11:10 AM Re: Wow... Receivers really do sound different!...
austinbirdman Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 185
Loc: The only place to live in Texa...
John K: What you said makes sense to me ("On music, testing has shown that THD has to be higher than 1%(sometimes 2-3%) before a difference is identified in blind tests. There's no way that distortions so far below the threshhold of audibility as .04% and .08% could be differentiated."). I haven't A/B'ed anything, so was just wondering.

Are those tests on the Web anywhere?
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