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#362393 - 01/01/12 09:33 PM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: JBall]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
That review was before Gene and Ian parted advertising ways, now it seems OK to jump all over Axiom since they are no longer advertising with Audioholics, amazingly ever since then Axiom speakers are no longer a good product.
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#362394 - 01/01/12 10:22 PM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: Ken.C]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Ken, it's a bit hard to not interpret it as in part an attack. The circuit pictured isn't technically a crossover and isn't strictly pertinent to the subject. It is however the high-pass filter from the Algonquin(outdoor version of the M3)which was reviewed by Gene with considerable praise as to the sound quality(linked in a previous reply). A "crossover", as the term suggests, both rolls off a low frequency driver above a certain frequency and rolls off a high frequency driver below that frequency. The M3 has never had a crossover, using the capacitors shown to roll off the tweeter(the resistors also visible simply pad down the tweeter to match levels with the typically less sensitive mid-bass driver). The mid-bass then rolls off naturally.

This design has been used for over a decade in the M3 with fine audible results. Suggesting that this is an example of "incompetent" design indicates that the reality of the situation has been ignored for some reason.
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#362395 - 01/01/12 11:07 PM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: JohnK]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17765
Loc: NoVA
Ah, it is? Well, then. I stand corrected.
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#362396 - 01/01/12 11:38 PM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: CatBrat]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: CatBrat
Got my interest up on Revel speakers, so I decided to check them out. I don't like the look of plastic speakers, so to me that's a complete turn off. Their upper end towers look like plastic.

The center channel speakers look to be designed and priced similar to the VP160. But the Revel speaker seems to be lacking on the low end. Missing bass ports. I'd take the VP160 over the similarly priced Revel C12 center any day.


I've had the opportunity to demo a pair of Revel Salon2's on multiple occasions and I can tell you they were light years beyond the M60s. Don't get me wrong, I still very much like my M60s and for 1/20th of the price, I am not complaining. Let's just put things into perspective.

I did purchase a pair of JBL towers of similar price to the M60s and compared them directly in my home before sending the JBLs back. Overall I felt the Axioms had more detail in the highs and a bit more low end bass while the JBLs had cleaner midrange. I listen to a lot of jazz and instrumentals more than music with vocals so I kept the Axioms. But I one day aspire to be a Revel owner. smile

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#362397 - 01/01/12 11:43 PM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: jakewash]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: jakewash
That review was before Gene and Ian parted advertising ways, now it seems OK to jump all over Axiom since they are no longer advertising with Audioholics, amazingly ever since then Axiom speakers are no longer a good product.


I don't see the article as jumping on any manufacturer and there are some pretty big names behind the article besides DeSalla such as. Dr. Floyd Tool. Seems like a lot of innuendos here b/c of a pic used as an example but not mentioned by name.

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#362398 - 01/02/12 12:33 AM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: JBall]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1189
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Engineers design speakers to give as close to flat frequency response as possible.They labor over the design,spending endless hours in anechoic chambers and tweeking crossovers. And then we purchase them and put them in impossible untreated rooms that do them no justice. Adding room treatment will do more than any crossover could hope to imho. Why did gene test an outdoor speaker indoors,thats not where it belongs and will sound entirely different. Besides not ever speaker in a manufacturer's lineup is perfect.
Any speaker manufacturer can design a complicated crossover that will change its sound,but at what cost. Every manufacturer has to work within a design limit. Im sure if ian could build a no holds barred speaker it would be entirely different from what he is selling, and would cost one hell of a lot more. Nothing is free, and free shipping is not free ,it is built into the cost. I started my axiom journey with M2's so if i didnt like it would not cost much to return. Dollar to performance axioms speakers are a great value in this day and age imho. I liked them enough that i moved up to M80's which i definetly would not want to pay return shipping on. If the speakers i buy sound good to me why do i care what the crossover looks like as a consumer? I know these are not the best speakers money can buy,nor are they the worst and like anyone i have to live within my means.It simply amazes me how these speakers disappear when listing to them or watching a movies.
When someone like Gene writes/says the thing that he does, it puts his integrity at stake. Basically it seems he can be bought. Advertise with him and you get a favorable review. If thats his line in the sand i dont take any stock in anything the man has to say.
No one at axiom is telling any lies or misrepresenting the product,nor are people like us who enjoy their products, so much so we are willing to freely allow people we dont know into our homes to auditon them , free of charge. Gene needs to move on and we as axiomites can stop this trolling by not feeding them.

And the customer service is second to none , something no amount of money can buy. Ha Ha im rambling here,but im sure you get the point.I get defensive when someone attacks a product or company i truly believe in.


Edited by Socketman (01/02/12 12:36 AM)
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#362415 - 01/02/12 09:02 AM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: Socketman]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5833
Loc: Some random location
Just curious. What makes the Revel Salon2 sound better than the Axiom Audio M80's, other than the $20,000 price tag? They do seem to have more speaker surface area, perhaps.

If Revel can outperform M80's for 13.8 times the price, what could a redesigned Axiom hi-end speaker be able to accomplish at say, twice the M80 price?

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#362416 - 01/02/12 09:27 AM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: CatBrat]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Price does not always mean better but in the case of Revel, it does. It is a true full range speaker, high output/low compression, low resonance, has an accurate/smooth response with extremely well controlled, smooth off-axis behavior. This speaker is an engineering marvel and one of the best engineered speakers ever created and you pay for it, just like you would a luxury car.



The flat quasi-anechoic response on axis will not necessarily correlate with a flat perceived balance in-room because the latter also depends on the loudspeaker's dispersion; ie, on how that response changes to the sides and above and below that axis. The Salon2's horizontal dispersion is shown in fig.6. The loudspeaker's behavior is almost textbook perfect, with smooth, even off-axis behavior up to 8.5kHz or so, the frequency where the tweeter's waveguide begins to restrict its off-axis output. Due to this increasing directivity in the top audio octave, the Salon2 might sound a bit airless in large or overdamped rooms; the Tweeter Level control, set to one of its two boost positions, will help compensate for this. In the vertical plane (fig.7), the Revel's flat response is maintained over a wide (±10°) window centered on the tweeter axis, which is a good thing—the tweeter is a very high 49" above the floor.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements
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#362417 - 01/02/12 09:42 AM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: CatBrat]
FireGuy Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 309
Loc: Buffalo, New York
Then, what makes the JM Labs Grand Utopia EM's almost 10 times the price better than the $20K Revel's? Axiom Audio has it's business plan and market place and perform quite well. I'm sure if they want they can design and build to the stratosphere and send their marketing collateral to Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and maybe Lawrence Ellison.
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#362419 - 01/02/12 10:58 AM Re: Myths & Facts About Crossovers [Re: Socketman]
JBall Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: Socketman
Engineers design speakers to give as close to flat frequency response as possible.They labor over the design,spending endless hours in anechoic chambers and tweeking crossovers. And then we purchase them and put them in impossible untreated rooms that do them no justice. Adding room treatment will do more than any crossover could hope to imho. Why did gene test an outdoor speaker indoors,thats not where it belongs and will sound entirely different. Besides not ever speaker in a manufacturer's lineup is perfect.
Any speaker manufacturer can design a complicated crossover that will change its sound,but at what cost. Every manufacturer has to work within a design limit. Im sure if ian could build a no holds barred speaker it would be entirely different from what he is selling, and would cost one hell of a lot more. Nothing is free, and free shipping is not free ,it is built into the cost. I started my axiom journey with M2's so if i didnt like it would not cost much to return. Dollar to performance axioms speakers are a great value in this day and age imho. I liked them enough that i moved up to M80's which i definetly would not want to pay return shipping on. If the speakers i buy sound good to me why do i care what the crossover looks like as a consumer? I know these are not the best speakers money can buy,nor are they the worst and like anyone i have to live within my means.It simply amazes me how these speakers disappear when listing to them or watching a movies.
When someone like Gene writes/says the thing that he does, it puts his integrity at stake. Basically it seems he can be bought. Advertise with him and you get a favorable review. If thats his line in the sand i dont take any stock in anything the man has to say.
No one at axiom is telling any lies or misrepresenting the product,nor are people like us who enjoy their products, so much so we are willing to freely allow people we dont know into our homes to auditon them , free of charge. Gene needs to move on and we as axiomites can stop this trolling by not feeding them.

And the customer service is second to none , something no amount of money can buy. Ha Ha im rambling here,but im sure you get the point.I get defensive when someone attacks a product or company i truly believe in.


I was under the impression that the indoor and outdoor M3 are identical in design and parts. Only the cabinets are different where the outdoor version can withstand weather conditions.

Also looking closer at the review by Audioholics, I would still pick the Axiom over the Klipsch based on what was written.

Overall the review was positive and you can't expect all praises all the time. Heck I've got some things I don't like about my Macbook pro but I still luv it!

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