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#366938 - 02/16/12 09:04 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: Andrew]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1844
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Michael, the facts of audio technology, which would be confirmed in a properly controlled blind listening test, are that there's no audible difference in either the quality or quantity of power available from those three amplifiers.


I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but how did you come to this conclusion based on the information given by the OP or the specifications given by the manufacturers?


Wouldn't the design be the largest factor? A v.s. A/B?

not to derail the conversation from Bacon.... mmm...

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#366940 - 02/16/12 09:09 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: mpyw]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Watching with interest.
_________________________
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#366942 - 02/16/12 09:21 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: dakkon]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 171
Originally Posted By: dakkon

Wouldn't the design be the largest factor? A v.s. A/B?

not to derail the conversation from Bacon.... mmm...


True, but not necessarily the class of operation. What about the devices used, topology, feedback methods, phase and gain margin, output impedance/damping factor, individual distortion harmonics, TIM, IMD, slew rate, dynamic current capability, etc, etc. I guess where I'm going with this is that it's misleading to look at a few specs of two amplifiers, like output power into a given load and THD, and then suggest they will sound the same.

Pass the bacon and the toast. wink


Edited by Andrew (02/16/12 09:24 PM)

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#366943 - 02/16/12 09:30 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: dakkon]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4070
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Michael, the facts of audio technology, which would be confirmed in a properly controlled blind listening test, are that there's no audible difference in either the quality or quantity of power available from those three amplifiers.


I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but how did you come to this conclusion based on the information given by the OP or the specifications given by the manufacturers?


Wouldn't the design be the largest factor? A v.s. A/B?

not to derail the conversation from Bacon.... mmm...


Sure. Amps are pretty complex devices and there is more to amp than it's power capabilities. You can bet that different amps are not designed exactly the same with the exact same frequency response, input impedance, output impedance, crosstalk, noise floor, distortion etc. These are just a few things that can differentiate the capabilities of one amp from another.

Amps may not behave the same at high power demands either. The Axiom Class D amp for example was able to deliver instantaneous current into any one or combination of its channels when needed.
_________________________
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#366944 - 02/16/12 09:34 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: BlueJays1]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 171
Originally Posted By: BlueJays1

Sure. Amps are pretty complex devices and there is more to amp than it's power capabilities. You can bet that different amps are not designed exactly the same with the exact same frequency response, input impedance, output impedance, crosstalk, noise floor, distortion etc.

Amps may not behave the same at high power demands either. The Axiom Class D amp for example was able to deliver instantaneous current into any one or combination of its channels when needed.


Precisely!


Edited by Andrew (02/16/12 09:35 PM)

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#366949 - 02/16/12 09:54 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: JohnK]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1844
Originally Posted By: JohnK
Michael, the facts of audio technology, which would be confirmed in a properly controlled blind listening test, are that there's no audible difference in either the quality or quantity of power available from those three amplifiers.


Andrew, i think your point to a certain degree touches on the difference in view of myself and John...

I am of the philosophy that a top grade power amp with more than enough power (250-500W per channel) is the ideal route to go.

John is a believer that the amps in receivers today are more than powerful enough to power a HT.

I think the fundamental design of the amp is a large part of the end result, as is the components used. With the comparison of a Class A->A/B there is a fundamental difference in the operation between these two designs, everything else held constant. As you know, the Class A amplifies the entire sign wave, while the A/B only amplifies a % of the sign wave.

In my experience, if a component is built with components with a tolerance of +/- < 1%, the product is going to work pretty damn close to the way the the math works out on the computer modeling. This can only be accomplished at a very high cost.

However, if a manufacture uses components +/- 5% or greater the final product will work, but the real world product will not work exactly as the math says it will due to larger component deviations.


Also, the amps that are hugely over built result in each component within the product working at below rated output. Where the smaller products will result in each component (transistor) working at near max output for the same amount of power (near saturation), as a transistor gets closer to saturation the more noise gets introduced into the circuite, no?


I am not saying either me or John are right or wrong... we just have a fundamental difference of opinion on how to accomplish the same task.

With all of that being said, i honestly can not "hear" a difference between a receiver amp, my Marantz amp, or my Krell amps...... the difference i tell is the available amount of power, the need for more power is the reason i ended up with Krell amps...

The Krell amps use components with +/- .05%-.1% i believe....

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#366952 - 02/16/12 10:00 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
SBrown Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 812
Loc: Victoria,BC
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Opening a can of Deer....



OOH geez, I had to laugh. good one Mark!
_________________________
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.

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#366953 - 02/16/12 10:07 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: mpyw]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4070
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Sure. Receivers can power a majority of home theater systems out there but you have to ask these questions if external amplification can be beneficial. What's your listening room size and distance. Are my speakers efficient? How reactive is the loudspeakers load? Most importantly what are your personal listening preferences? It's not cut and dry.
_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#366973 - 02/16/12 11:19 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: BlueJays1]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Originally Posted By: BlueJays1
It's not cut and dry.
Cook it a little longer and use a knife.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#366976 - 02/16/12 11:32 PM Re: Does all power amp sounded the same? [Re: mpyw]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1844
no, Jason... you want some moisture... over cooked and dry is no good!!!!!!

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