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#369344 - 03/12/12 12:14 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: grunt]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11170
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: grunt
The way I look at it is if I were to decide to upgrade my mains or whole system for that matter (can’t imagine why I would unless I won the lottery and then I’d upgrade my house (read room) first) I would revisit all potential speakers that focus on neutral presentation. So say if the new Axioms came in at the same price as the B&Ws I though sounded better than the M80s (but not 3 times better) then I would also consider the B&Ws as viable upgrades. To do otherwise out of brand loyalty would not make any sense to me.


Very good points, but I'll say that brand loyalty does make some sense. If you have a history of being taken care of by the company, that's value, too. Also, if I'm only upgrading mains, sticking with the same brand for timbre matching to the rest of the surround system is something else to consider. Of course, we don't yet know how well they match the current lineup and have only been told that the VP180 would be the most appropriate center to match with the new flagships. You're right that I should still look at speakers from other manufacturers in the same price range, whatever that ends up being. I still think there are compelling reasons to stick with the same brand, but I would still expect the new speakers to outperform the M80s by a fair margin, or why keep them.

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#369345 - 03/12/12 12:44 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: CV]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: grunt
The way I look at it is if I were to decide to upgrade my mains or whole system for that matter (can’t imagine why I would unless I won the lottery and then I’d upgrade my house (read room) first) I would revisit all potential speakers that focus on neutral presentation. So say if the new Axioms came in at the same price as the B&Ws I though sounded better than the M80s (but not 3 times better) then I would also consider the B&Ws as viable upgrades. To do otherwise out of brand loyalty would not make any sense to me.


Very good points, but I'll say that brand loyalty does make some sense. If you have a history of being taken care of by the company, that's value, too. Also, if I'm only upgrading mains, sticking with the same brand for timbre matching to the rest of the surround system is something else to consider. Of course, we don't yet know how well they match the current lineup and have only been told that the VP180 would be the most appropriate center to match with the new flagships. You're right that I should still look at speakers from other manufacturers in the same price range, whatever that ends up being. I still think there are compelling reasons to stick with the same brand, but I would still expect the new speakers to outperform the M80s by a fair margin, or why keep them.


I don’t disagree that buying from the same place can make sense for many reasons especially if they’ve done you right. However, what I’m referring to is what I’ve read here and in other forums, when I used to bother with them, that shows lack of considering alternatives. It’s one thing to make a rational decision based on various factors, loyalty both ways being a valid one, however it’s IMO irrational to jump on a the bandwagon for a new product if not already keeping up with what other producers have or are doing and without any direct or even indirect experience with the product.

I find it difficult to believe that Axiom can produce a new type of speaker that can outperform the M80s by a fair margin let alone do it without costing a fair amount more. Awhile back a way over the top, IMO, review of the M80v3s was posted which I commented on negatively because the reviewer made it sound like the incremental improvement made the old M80 sound like crap, at least by comparison. With Axiom already comparing it’s speakers in double blind tests to speakers costing many times more as “similarly good” I find it hard to believe they can produce a new speaker that can sound even better w/o charging much more for it. Again bringing up the issue of value, how much more is slightly better sound going to be worth to someone. I submit that most people would benefit more from experimenting more with speaker/listener positioning and very likely room treatments before upgrading speakers, but these aren’t nearly as glamorous. But then I drive a Hyundai so what do I know. wink
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#369347 - 03/12/12 01:43 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: grunt]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1845
Originally Posted By: CV


Very good points, but I'll say that brand loyalty does make some sense. If you have a history of being taken care of by the company, that's value, too.


I dont know how may people on the forum have owned a Jaguar? This is the best example of HORRIBLE customer service from a premium brand that i can think of.... Sure, their cars are nice... However, i would NEVER buy one specifically because of the way they treat customers after the purchase...

I would pose the argument that in todays market, customer service is THE most important factor in a company that wishes to obtain repeat business. For me, a company with the best customer service will get my business, even if their product is marginally inferior to a company that offers horrible service.


Originally Posted By: grunt

I find it difficult to believe that Axiom can produce a new type of speaker that can outperform the M80s by a fair margin let alone do it without costing a fair amount more.


Just to make a fare argument, Ian has not stated a price, but i think that it would be rational to expect a higher cost, due to the active DSP even if everything else is held constant.


Also, the Social Scientist in me, says it is completely rational for people to get excited about the prospect of a future product/purchase... Retail therapy for guys you might say......

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#369350 - 03/12/12 08:45 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Ian]
Jc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 500
Loc: Sherbrooke, QC, Canada
Good Monday morning,

I have what I qualify as a “privilege” for having been part of Axiom’s organization for the past seven (7) years. I know that even if my evaluation might be partial there are solid facts which can’t be ignored and a track record to prove it. Axiom’s goal of extracting from an audio speaker its maximum performance based on scientific premises at an affordable cost for the average consumer while maintaining a quality construction and reliability.

The well deserved praise won by the Axiom M80 over the years makes it a tough act to follow. As I have reported before, I have personally audition speakers costing much more that had an overall performance inferior to it. I, for one, have absolutely no doubts that the M100 will raise the bar.

Furthermore, the excitement which I’m experiencing is not only due to the coming M100 but also about Ian’s comment concerning the repercussions on the other Axiom speaker models. I think that some have already forgotten Ian’s post several pages back and when you know Ian as well as I do . . . there is absolutely no hype in his comment.
It is worth reading it over, slowly, once more . . . (I'll save you the trouble of looking for it ; here it is)

Originally Posted By: Ian
For now I would like to add that this new product has been just a fantastic journey in the making. Though the early beginnings go back about 10 years, it really began in earnest a few years ago when Andrew and I had the first opportunities to hang out and chat about our prior experiences and experiments. It became apparent rather quickly that our combined experiences could be put together to create a whole new direction for a speaker design. As a base we had all the experiments that we had done over the years that had netted similar results, even though they were being done in separate laboratories and without any collusion back and forth. This brought some real clarity to a plethora of elements about speaker design. Of course a lot of these experiments were pretty mainstream anyway so similar results would be expected but there were also quite a number that were not. Added to this we had the experiments we had done that were in totally different directions. Here we had the opportunity to collaborate and develop new experiments.

I guess if I had to boil it down to the two most prominent and broad categories that we were collaborating on it would be the utilization of DSPs and the utilization of omni-directional design. These two main foundations, plus a multitude of other ideas and experiences, could now be used to carve out some totally new territory. As with all things Axiom this new direction had to ultimately prove itself out in Double Blind Listen Testing. For Andrew the Double Blind Test was nothing new since it was very much in keeping with the methodology followed at API. I guess given the early roots of both Axiom and API at the NRC this is not surprising.

So after all these years we are now just about ready to unveil the first product of this research. I might add that along with our new speaker model will be the ability to juice the performance of some of our existing models. From a timing point of view we are currently building the prototypes for the show and should be done sometime in the next few weeks. It is our plan to take a pile of photos and post them here when those samples are completed. I think once we have this visual would be a sensible time to start going over the details.

_________________________
jc
Axiom Audio Expert / jc@axiomaudio.com
Recrutement d'Intégrateurs/Installateurs professionnels Québec

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#369387 - 03/12/12 10:42 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10856
Loc: Central NH
Of course, everything here is speculation. Not only in my post right here, but in almost every previous one. None of us has heard the new speaker yet, so making any assumptions about it's value in comparison to the existing Axiom lineup or to other brands is pointless.

So, continuing on with my pointless post.....

[speculation mode]

My guess, based upon the information we DO know, is that the new speakers are not going to re-invent the M80s. After all, they already are known for being flat, having incredible dynamic range (especially with good power), and having a neutral sound. I don't really know where an M80 could be improved, with the possible exception of a few more 6.5", or additional 8~10" drivers to bring their bottom end even lower yet.

What HAS been said, is that the new speaker offers rear-facing drivers and interestingly, requires separate amplification of those drivers.

There's a difference in imaging between a point-source and omnidirectional speaker (or at least one with rear-facing drivers). I had some old DCM Timeframe speakers before my Axioms, and they had rear-facing drivers as well. The Bose 901s are probably the best known, and most extreme example of the kind, with a single forward facing driver and many rear-facing drivers.

Having a speaker with this design can seriously spread out the soundstage; detractors say it takes away from precise imaging.

My guess is that the Axiom design team will use the rear-facing speakers here, in conjunction with separate amps and processing, to offer the best of both worlds.

And, if true, there really won't be an easy comparison of value to an M80 or to another brand, because the speaker could offer something that the others can't: A wide, yet precise soundstage for stereo listening, and possibly the ability to "bypass" the rear speakers if they are operating in an environment or with sources where you don't wish to broaden the soundstage. (Though if they offered point-source-like imaging as well, I'm not sure there would ever be much of a reason to turn off those rear drivers!).

[/speculation mode]
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#369389 - 03/12/12 10:45 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3889
Loc: Up yonder
Until very recently, Axiom did not discuss future products - period. You'd know about it when it became available for purchase. A few forum comments complained about this.... Axiom took note of those complaints. Now they have decided to "let the cat out of the bag" a bit early. Now that is being compared to AV123....
_________________________


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#369390 - 03/12/12 10:48 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17754
Loc: NoVA
Shall I start handing out the pistols now?

Everyone stand in a circle, please.


Edited by Ken.C (03/12/12 10:49 AM)
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#369391 - 03/12/12 11:01 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
MarkSJohnson Online   happy
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10856
Loc: Central NH
I don't think this announcement was too early. Mike's right: I was one who posted in the past that Axiom should do this sort of "early notification" to forum members.

If it had been six MONTHS before release, that would have been too early. Interest and speculation would turn to disappointment.

But we're only talking about 5 weeks from announcement here to demonstrating it live.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#369393 - 03/12/12 11:09 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: Amie]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5820
Loc: Some random location
It looks like there's going to be a better way to create a wall-of-sound besides 2 sets of mains, like mine. I still doubt that it'll be a possible installation at my home. Speakers are too close together, and would stick out into the room too far. Would have to sit in the sweet spot, just to see the TV.

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#369396 - 03/12/12 11:45 AM Re: Exciting News From Axiom! [Re: michael_d]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4077
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: michael_d
Until very recently, Axiom did not discuss future products - period. You'd know about it when it became available for purchase. A few forum comments complained about this.... Axiom took note of those complaints. Now they have decided to "let the cat out of the bag" a bit early. Now that is being compared to AV123....


What Axiom has done is exactly how you want to roll-out and market a new product. Announcing that you are showing off a new product at a conference is a standard in the technology industry.

In today's social media, people getting excited, people complaining, people speculating is all part of the process. This is all normal.








_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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